Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
(OP)
There has been a bit of conversation around the office as to whether the BPVC calculations are actually 'design' or not, mainly for insurance reasons, what do you think?
It seems to me that since we are deciding the thickness and components that we are doing design work. I don't see it as any different than an engineering firm that sizes components, other than an engineering stamp (in fact I often do calculations for engineering firms for vessels). These firms may design a structural component, Section VIII design calcs involve engineering the saddles, base plate, bolt size ie structural components. It seems like the people up top don't want to consider it design work for financial reasons, however I don't see how this isn't design work but I'm curious how other people and companies classify and insure ASME Section VIII as design work or not?
It seems to me that since we are deciding the thickness and components that we are doing design work. I don't see it as any different than an engineering firm that sizes components, other than an engineering stamp (in fact I often do calculations for engineering firms for vessels). These firms may design a structural component, Section VIII design calcs involve engineering the saddles, base plate, bolt size ie structural components. It seems like the people up top don't want to consider it design work for financial reasons, however I don't see how this isn't design work but I'm curious how other people and companies classify and insure ASME Section VIII as design work or not?





RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
This is really an insurance question, that is best answered by your insurance broker or agent. The answer may actually depend on your specific jurisdiction.
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
Designers of pressure vessels also design according to a Code, the ASME B&PV Code, etc. They also apply the loads defined in standards such as ASCE 7, etc, or their jurisdiction's building codes.
I don't see any difference.
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
Regards,
Mike
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
It's my understanding that in these cases, where a product has the potential to be dangerous, a PE must sign off on the design, or in the case of Section VIII vessels the Code must be followed then signed off by the engineering designer/manager (verifying the validity of the calcs) and usually also by the quality control manager, and then always signed off on by an Authorized Inspector. On top of that we have to, on an annual basis, do the calculations by hand to prove the software is functioning correctly, so while today most of it is plug and chug, an understanding of the principles and formulas, as well as the rules of the Code is imperative for a good vessel engineer.
Sure anybody can get on CAD or draw up something on paper, or use software to produce something, even at home with a 3D printer, this has probably never been easier, but the design I'm referring to is usually heavy industrial work that has the potential for catastrophic failure with severe consequences.
Can anybody do Section VIII design of vessels? I would say no... I don't think a high school drop out with no technical knowledge would be in a position to do these calculations, he may be able to input the values into software, but would not understand all the terminology and meaning of values that the computer outputs, would he be able to understand the Code and all of the rules, or do the calculations without the aid of the software? If no then I'd say this person should not be in this position. I am surprised that, and not entirely sure why, vessels in Division 1 don't need a PE to sign off on them (but this may be a discussion for another thread) and I'm unaware of any other engineered components that do not need a PE's signiture. I may be wrong but I was under the impression that anything designed that has the potential for great loss of life or money had to be signed off on by a PE (except for vessels).
I just had lunch with the president of a local engineering firm and brought up this issue, he seems to agree that this is certainly design work and admitted that his company can't/doesn't do design of vessels (I do the design for them most of the time), so it seems to me that most are in agreement that BPVC is indeed design work. Now whether an insurance firm would agree may be a different case, but from a realistic standpoint its design work.
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
Sorry if I set you off:)
Regards,
Mike
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
Some operating companies (users) require that a Professional Engineer certify the design, regardless of what the jurisdictional requirements are.
I think that the Foreword of Division 1 is pretty clear about this, mind you.
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
If you only got the job of designing you are responsible for the seeing work.
If you only fab, someone else design it you are for the fab only but do not forget that you must check the design before building... That's the ASME,s Code requirement.
So if you are responsible for any thing... Your insurance litigate and will pay. If you have a policy.. I hope you do... So in the end if you have a degree or not or you just have second grade edu..like me... And punch numbers in the computer you are liable. Oh! I love to play the lawyer, and I feel better when I'm right... Are you happy now. There is your answer. Genb
RE: Are Calculations for Section VIII Considered "Design" for Insurance?
If you only got the job of designing you are responsible for the seeing work.
If you only fab, someone else design it you are for the fab only but do not forget that you must check the design before building... That's the ASME,s Code requirement.
So if you are responsible for any thing... Your insurance litigate and will pay. If you have a policy.. I hope you do... So in the end if you have a degree or not or you just have second grade edu..
And punch numbers in the computer you are liable.genblr