Engineers and Crappy Drafting
Engineers and Crappy Drafting
(OP)
Why are mechanical engineers such bad drafters. I've been a Mechanical engineer since mid-90's and before that a drafter since the late 80's degreed in both. Every company I've have ever been at I've never come across an ME that understands drafting / CAD standards. I seen such crappy drafting work or CAD file managment that I can make a career just going from company to company and cleaning up messes. Its sobad some times that ME's could care less about producing drawings they could be proud of or its below then to do drafting to begin with.





RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
You didn’t make it clear, in which part of the world you observed the phenomena, but in some places engineers are actually required to take drafting classes and are capable of producing decent drawings.
In other places “engineer” is seen as “leadership” position that requires telling other people what to do instead of actually doing something by him/herself.
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
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Some engineers seem to see drafting as below them - some engineering boards implicitly support this by not counting time spent drafting toward the experience requirements to become a PE.
I've also seen crummy work by designers/drafters on occasion.
I'm an engineer (at least have my bachelors) and I like to think I'm a reasonable drafter given the time to do it properly. I've certainly been told I'm better than most of my immediate peers during reviews etc.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
Most university courses don't spend much time on it - and what time they do spend may be more on learning specific CAD systems these days rather than what to do with any generic CAD system (or heaven forbid drawing board).
I was pretty much self educated by reading standards etc. with encouragement/cajoling from checkers/more senior staff etc.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
Good drafters are detailed oriented, and usually somewhat artistic.
A lot of bad drafters are hired, or promoted within, to draw lines that others don't want to do.
Engineers generally are not taught drafting. The ones that are, don't want to do it because they think it degrades their IQ. They think that is what designers/drafters are for.
Good drafting skills are a thing of the past for a lot of companies. Sending 3D models out via CAM or 3D printing has taken over. Drawings are now mostly used for dimensional checking.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
What I'm experiencing more these days is you get a new ME job, and the engineers don't bother creating drawings and just send the 3d model out for fab or I'm replacing someone who quit and I'm hearing all the raves about how good an engineer they where, but the legacy drawing they leave is junk.
I just started a new job 2 months ago and I heqard all the raves about they guy I replaced, but he never did any detail drawings and the ones he did are terrible, withno pride in work
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
I'm hesitant to say the typical schedule pressures we feel cause the issues, but certainly a time crunch can exacerbate things.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
The 'Engineering Graphics' courses in college taught Design of Experiments, FORTRAN programming (the Elbonian way), and how to make nomographs.
The 'Engineering Practice' course in college attempted to teach manufacturing processes, but it was taught by grad students who hadn't worked in manufacturing or used a machine tool. The best source for practical advice, if you asked, and if you listened, was the cranky old super of the student machine shop.
I didn't have a good handle on processes or tolerancing until about ten years after graduating from college in 1966. Of course I _thought_ I understood all along.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
I think a new college graduate engineer would say "What does this thing do?"
Is drafting even taught in engineering courses these days? It was in my first semester at Northesatern in the fall of 1970. We all had to buy a drafting kit; small C-size board, T-square, various triangles and a set of pencils and lead.
Give that to an 'engineer' today and ask him to draw a line at 75 degrees to a horizintal line and see what they do, or how they do it. If trained right, it is a snap.
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
I went to Wentworth, right next door to Northeaster back in 95. Even back then I was the only student that had a AS in drafting and 6 years of experience and opted out of any required GT&D/ drafting class.
back to my original post, it gets frustrating to deal with engineers, esp the young ones, that are clueless on the following:
* Don't understand, could care less or beneath them to do proper drawings for a machinist. take short cuts by just sending a 3d file
* Don't unterstand on how parts are fabricated, because they spend zero time either in a machine shop. When no drawings are created and parts don't fit together they deflect the problem back to the shop.
* Don't understand, proper CAD file, ECO procedures.
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
As a designer I'm by no means a machinist, welder or sheetmetal guru. But I do have to have some basical knowledge on how parts are fab'd. How do I design and create drawings if I don't have a basic foundation on that?
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
However, in the whole scheme of designing a part rather than just detailing it then obviously the how - as in can it be made cost effectively - is a big deal.
Most of the time if you're truly documenting the drawing such that you're explicitly capturing functional requirements then on a basic level you should have what's needed for inspection. It may not mean you can do all the inspection with a set of callipers or similar without having to think about it though.
The thing that's frustrating to me isn't so much that they don't 'know' how to do drawings & document control etc. but that some don't care enough to educate themselves and in some cases look down on design communication as being below them etc. If your job requires you do do your own drafting I figure that means you need to learn to do it properly (or at least adequately) - that's what I did. If you object to doing your own drafting so strongly then the correct & "Professional" thing isn't to half a$$ it and never learn but is instead to go find a different job where you don't have to do your own drafting. Though if you can't at least understand how to read a drawing how to you know if the person doing the drafting for you has done it correctly? What's the point in having an awesome 'design' if it's documented so poorly it can't be made correctly?
I also don't buy the 'I wasn't taught this' or the idea that you can only learn how to draw by having explicit 'teaching' or 'training'. I learnt through looking at previous drawings, looking at drawing standards (and occasionally drafting books); getting feedback on drawings from peers/asking them questions; formalized drawing check (with the personal goal of creating a perfect drawing that didn't get red inked - never happened); more recently asking questions on this site/searching the web and at the end of the day lots of practice - not all of it on the company's dime.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
I myself am proud of time I’ve spent on the shop floor. So this is my biggest grudge with drafting standard bodies (ISO is guilty as well). They wave “functional” flag and outright reject process – and dedicate entire standard books to gauges, castings, weldments, plastic parts, you name it.
I don’t believe one can seriously consider working with GD&T without at least basic knowledge of both – machining and quality control. Maybe that’s the problem with low GD&T adoption rates – the guys are dying breed.
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
How to do proper drafting was maybe touched on by one class for a day or two.
I believe it should be taught. Not only how to learn drafting, but mainly to know how to read drawings.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
This is NOT an engineer problem; it's a management problem. Engineers, particularly young ones, are not kings; they report to someone. That "someone" is and should be responsible for proper direction, guidance, policy, and yes, even management of all activities related to their department. If the engineer doesn't know that it's his job to generate machining drawings, whose fault is that, really? Where is the procedure that describes the process for creating a valid drawing for procurement or fabrication? Where is the peer review that's supposed to catch things like that? And, where is the manager in all of this?
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RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
However, I still believe there is an element of personal responsibility in learning to do a required task properly.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
the focus in school, when it comes to drafting, is on the actual look of the drawing more than on the functionality. They spend a considerable amount of time teaching CAD software, and little time to actually teach GD&T.
The mentality is that you must be ready to draw when you start your new employment. This is even reflected in job offering. Most employer ask for the future employee to be familiar with specific CAD software and don't mention GD&T. When it is time to evaluate candidates, a lot of companies will test CAD proficiency and not GD&T.
I believe it is done backward. What is really important? the surgeon that knows how to use the scalpel or the surgeon that knows when and where? It is fairly easy to learn any CAD software, especially since 90% of parts are made with line, circles and rectangles. My experience is that you can get someone operational (not expert) in as little as 2 weeks.
GD&T takes more time. It should be tough in Colleges and university where student have more time than on the jobs where, pressed with time, engineers and technicians are under pressure to perform.
Lastly, GD&T is like juice to dieting people. People try to cut the fat, do exercise, count calories in all their food but no one looks at the number of calories in 100% pure Orange Juice. Some would be surprised how much they could benefit from drinking less juice and invest in GD&T.
Gerald
Catia Instructor
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
GD&T is only part of the problem... as a designer I've worked with seasoned engineers who didn't even know how to correctly project views, much less what a good drawing consists of. The "look" of a drawing is important, as a precise, well laid out, uncluttered drawing is much easier to interpret (and thus less expensive to manufacture) than most of the drawings I have seen engineers produce, (unless they have previous experience as a well disciplined drafter). One of the best ways to get a well disciplined drafter is to have good checkers (a topic which has also been discussed frequently here) but anymore companies don't realize their value and instead rely on peer checking, if any checking beyond a "self-check", and the engineers are often given carte blanche on what they want to see on a drawing before they sign off. There is nothing wrong with peer checking when the your peers know their stuff, but it is too often a case of the blind leading the blind. I often have well thought out drawings come back with red marks that actually introduce mistakes (from peers and "official" checkers alike). If I make a mistake or omission, I really do appreciate my mistakes being pointed out when they are legitimate, or given the opportunity to explain my reasoning for doing something the way that I had (I can be swayed with valid reasoning), but the frustration of peers and inexperienced checkers checking to their own undocumented preferences often leaves me tempted me to just let it go, right or wrong. My red-lined drawings often go to someone else to correct because they know I will argue the point if I feel I am correct and they have nothing to back up their opinions, other than that is the way that they had always done it. It is easier for them to hand it off to someone less experience and unlikely to question their mark-ups. This is unfortunate, because I usually have a reason for documenting something in a particular way. I was hired for my experience, not to be popular.
[/rant]
“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
I guess the one pet peeve I have is engineers that still design products, for international sales, to imperial standard (english) instead of metric.
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
Have you ever encountered drawings specifying machined surfaces in places where no human-made tool can possibly reach?
Somebody still has to teach the drafter how part can and cannot be made.
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
The primary purpose of a component is to function in its intended environment, not simply to be manufactured.
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
For say hardware where it may need to be replaced in the field then changing to metric for international sales may well make sense.
However for custom machined parts that are to be made domestically and then exported the attraction is not so strong.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
drawings - they make real pretty models that management just loves & then they issue "drawings" to our factory to make parts that either do not fit or cannot be made -
then w/ no checker, it is uo to us designers/drafters (read me here) to make things right - after starting on the board 30+ years ago i am referred to as the
antique guy who doesnt like change - no, because you have a degree, hold a higher position, talk/text on your phone all day, surf the internet then make pretty models of machines
that cannot be made, i have to clean up your mess - instead of looking good do something to learn your trade & not depend on others to make you look good -
good manufacturing drawings & machine trades are a thing of the past - we just limp along & fix things on the fly & turn around & make the same mistakes the next time -
as our v.p. told me recently "3d models will make 95% if not 100% of our mistakes in engineering go away" - why then has our number of eco's gone up
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
I graduated in 2005 with my BSME after the Navy and working in retail, construction, Tow boat, auto mechanic, student to Plant Engineer. I had 1 course on drafting of which 2 weeks was on CAD, 1 course on FEA which did a few weeks in CAD. I later earned an MBA but still was unable to take a class in CAD.
For electives I tool ICE, vibration. I had colleagues who did not know what a camshaft looked like but could work the calculations in the book. I had a colleague tell me I would make him look good since I didn't play golf or use CAD but could work on most anything and understood and applied the theory. I had a Vibrations Professor with PhD in ME ask me what the "red part" of the temp gauge meant on his car.
I have struggled to become the accomplished crappy user of CAD I am today. I have had little to no training at standards or usage. No employer I have worked for offered nor suggested compensation for CAD education. So I have little incentive to expand my knowledge.
I am studying for my PE and struggling to make time for life, work and will not worry about expanding my CAD knowledge until a later time. CAD is not my 1st priority nor will it ever be unless my priorities change. The breadth of knowledge for an ME to know, understand and use is massive.
The point I am getting at is CAD is a tool set. Just like repairing machinery, thinking in 3D and problem solving are tool sets. Not all graduates can perform the same functions which allows for marketability of your personal skills. If you are so disgusted with the level of proficiency of an individual please feel free to teach, push the organization to train or provide incentives to increase the skill set. Push our accrediting organizations to require a specific amount of CAD classes.
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
I am unfortunately on my third engineering position since college due to layoffs. All positions have had little to no contact with drafting and CAD. Only one position had a PE on staff and I did not work for him. I was in maintenance and he was in charge of the Engineering Staff. The closest I have come is my current position which has no PE and 2 draftsmen on staff. I have gathered more information from these gentlemen than anywhere else in my career.
How do you propose to correct the educational system's lack of requirements and the reduction in PE engineering positions? Where are people like me to garner the knowledge?
The curriculum is being muddied by removing pertinent content important to skills in a profiteering move rather than focusing on education to meet the industry/student needs. I attended a state PE meeting in which the leaders made reference to the curriculum of engineering schools are being reduced to 128 hrs or less to push students through in 4 years for an ME. As I recall <10 yrs ago I had to have 144+ hrs to graduate with my BS. Civil engineers have proposed that only MS degree individuals be allowed to become PEs. The group discussed the possibility of changing requirements to only offer MS degrees in an attempt to meet the needs of industry.
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
While I certainly have thoughts about aspects of the education system I'm not sure this it necessarily the thread or forum to go into too much depth on that - there have been related threads over in "Where is Engineering Going In The Next 5 Years" as I recall. Suffice to say having been educated in the UK not so very long ago I got my bachelors in 3 years, in part because we started focusing our education at age 16. So my last 2 years of high school I took only subjects directly related to my eventual degree - per an accreditation review I had when I came to the US I was effectively part way through Sophmore year based just on my high school subjects and grades.
As to how I learned to draft I think I mentioned some above, I too got very little drafting education at university or high school. However, my jobs have required me to do my own drafting 99% of the time. My first job was in defense in the UK where the drawings were actually a contract deliverable much of the time so there was some checking process though with hindsight it wasn't fantastically robust. However, I did learn a lot from having my drawings checked by experienced peers - and also from my own desire to do a good job and get a drawing through check with no red-lines (only in part to avoid the teasing one got for bad drawings)! I spent a reasonable amount of time (some on the clock, some mine) looking up the relevant drawing standards, asking questions about how to do things, looking at existing drawings etc..
My current job in the US required good drafting skills, I just missed some on site GD&T training when I started here but got hold of the materials from the class and went over them on my own time. I also spent time looking at the standards. I was also fortunate to have very experienced & skilled checker for a couple of years who I learned a lot from. When he got laid off I actually got made checker for a while and further self educated to be able to perform the job I was being paid to do.
So for the most part I learned to draft not through formal training & experience by taking the initiative to learn; having some help from colleagues and having some requirement from 'management' for my drawings to be good.
Oh dear, I've gone and said far more than I originally intended.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
Another difficulty I ran into are engineers with poor drafting/GD&T training and skills who believe they understand these concepts well, but in fact have made some really bad assumptions to fill in the gaps of their skill and training. In my experience, most GD&T arguments a company will have comes as a result of these individuals not understanding what they don't understand, but believing they do understand.
Then, there's what I call the irrational fear of GD&T and near-relgious beliefs in myths of supposed challenges to using GD&T. This is usually from engineers who have no drafting and GD&T experience at all. There's been a number of times I've run into a frighten engineer when they see a simple POS tolerance on a hole. They turn white as a ghost, and instead of asking what it means (when they obvious don't know), they scury to find someone (because they don't know how to draft themselves) to remove it from the drawing as quick as they can.
Now, this isn't all engineers. I've arounding out my skill from the oversight some very talented engineers.
Matt Lorono, CSWP
Product Definition Specialist, DS SolidWorks Corp
Personal sites:
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
RE: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
The reason I posted this threaded to begin with is I started a new job. The company had a hiring freeze because of a few mergers, the previous ME quit and the company hasn't had one in a couple of years. The hiring freeze let up and well here I am the sole ME .
So now that I'm here the company wants to make changes to their existing products. The problem I'm having is the CAD data is a total mess, there is limited detail drawings across all product lines. I was told by other s/w engineers that the person I replaced never really made 2d drawings and only sent the 3d file out for fab. The 2d drawings I do find are shameful with no dimension, material call out, or over and under toleranced call out for no good reason. And nowhere! is there any assembly drawing.
In my opinion, engineers that don't have good practical drafting expeience over tolerance features to cover their butts incase parts don't fit together during prototype assembly.