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Attitude and mindset with a new job
23

Attitude and mindset with a new job

Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Guys,
I need some wise advises and orientations.

How to deal with the following in the context of just starting in a very well reputed company considering I have already some modest previous background/experience with other (biggest) companies before.

- Rational behavior.
Instead of looking at your previous knowledge as an asset to be exploited wherever possible (more rational behavior in terms of resources management), looks like colleague don't acknowledge your knowledge capital at all. This leads to communication issues getting the job done. Symptoms are your are being systematically contradicted, people are looking for the fault or the weak spot etc. In reality the more you show them that you can treat your subject the more they look to be kind of upset. The question is : Is that (1)a cognitive distortion/bias from my side where I need to correct my perception OR (2) is it a phenomenon of rejection where they might think : "This guy cannot teach me my job which I am doing since two decades. This cannot be possible". Or mix of both.
Is it something to do with my ego ? any suggestion how to tackle this?

- External Focus.
Seems like colleagues are not fully aware that within the same industry field, people from other firms can be also very sharp in what they are doing. Process and method used elsewhere are worth looking at to have a feeling and to improve. Result is that there is a lack of curiosity in what new people can bring in when they are hired. Incidentally their profile and potential added value to a company might insufficiently be gauged.
I feel like the people who move permanently from their comfort area, switching jobs and companies are more immune to that. Today industry requires a lot of versatility in my view. Is that a correct point or is it again my misconception on how to build a career.


All in all, any wise advise on how to overcome all that feelings, develop a right mindset in that context above and tune my attitude to succeed in my new job would be much appreciated.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

5
You're the new guy.
You introduced yourself by telling everyone that they're doing everything wrong.
Bad idea.

There's a reason why "It's always been done that way." Eventually you will understand the underlying set of circumstances that made 'that way' the best way. ... at that time. There may be good reasons to do it differently now, but you have to wait until the current situation is perceived as a problem, and then present a solution.

You have come across to your co-workers as arrogant.
Additionally, your language skills might be misinterpreted as ignorance.
We here know that it's not true, but your coworkers and staff may not.
Do not tell them; show them.

I.e., be quiet and polite.
Do your work.
Do it well.
Do not tell anyone else how to do their work, even if you believe they are doing it wrong or inefficiently. ... especially if you believe they are doing it wrong or inefficiently. Helping coworkers become better is not part of your job.

Eventually, your coworkers will notice that you do your work well, correctly, and efficiently (... if you actually do so, of course). At that time, you can offer to help them, a little at a time.

I.e., you have to gain trust and respect before you tell anyone anything.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

6
When I was 12 years old I moved from the Los Angeles basin to Newton County, Arkansas (7 miles of paved roads in the whole county, zero industry, abject poverty, few houses had electricity, fewer had running water, and none had telephone). For the first 6 months I regularly started sentences with "In California, we ..." to denigrate something in Arkansas. It was never received well. Late in my first school year in Arkansas I took stock and realized that I was miserable, had driven everyone away, things pretty much sucked. On the other hand my sister was thriving. I watched her for a while and noticed that she NEVER said anything about "the way we did it there". She would often interject good ideas into conversations without calling attention to where the ideas came from. I was young and stupid, but smart enough to get that message. I erased the word "California" from my vocabulary and stopped trying to compare the two places. By the end of the school year my life was getting pretty good, and it just got better from there.

The point of that stupid story is that new guys in a company who try to "prove themselves" by showing the vast experience they got at the last company are never well accepted. I don't know how many of them come in with the idea that everything the last company did was perfect and everything the new company does is dumb. No one wants to hear that. The experienced hires that I've known who were successful integrating in the new company started off NEVER mentioning the old company. Never. Ever. If you have an idea to help the team say "what would happen if we tried ..." instead of "at my last company they solved this trivial problem by doing ...". I know that that is blatant spin, but it works. After a year or so you can (rarely) mention the old company, but you mostly won't want to.

When I started consulting several of my colleagues were certain that I would fail because I am pretty definite in my ideas. I didn't fail because I learned early on that every company has three types of activities: (1) things they do as well as anyone in the world; (2) things they do as well as their management will allow; and (3) things that they can use help with and are willing to accept that help. I found that praising the first category; acknowledging the second category; and working on the third category that people kept asking me back. Experienced hires need to follow the same path that made MuleShoe Engineering successful.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

A number of us old guard probably were in your shoes when we started. I know I was, but luckily my first boss straightened me out. I needed that chewing out and am glad for it.

Now, take a look at what Mike just told you. That is valuable advice (note the spelling of the word). I suggest you print it out, frame it and hang it above your work area. Then start off each day by reading it again.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Thanks to all of you.

I remember in the past, reading one reply in this forum made me realize that I needed to re-adjust my attitude and it helped a lot.
Someone said in kind of similar issue : "don't try to win the big war but instead gain small victories". I don't remember who said that and the exact wording. Anyway that was some time ago. Just to say that valuable advise here like these one are of great help.

I agree with you guys, especially the advise of Mike is very wise and will have now to implement it.

A slightly conflictual attitude in a way or in another is healthy. This drives an impulse to work harder. It is a positive stress(see the hormesis curve). That is my personal perspective and method.

Tomorrow I will print out the advise from Mike as suggested, I will just keep it in my pocket/wallet (too much eyes looking into my wall...). It will have the same effect :)

That is the difficult step by switching companies, because you leave an environment where you have adapted and somehow have been recognized to a new context where you have to do it all over again and it is never the same. When you manage to go through that, on the mid/long run it is beneficial and you stay healthy in the overall as you tolerate better uncertainty. But that is a bit off topic.

Thanks again.






RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

You have no idea how many "new guys" with "great ideas" have already come and gone.

Take time to become part of the team, the team that is there now and has been for a while and likely will be long after you've fled. Demonstrate competence by adapting to your environment and demonstrating trustworthiness. Otherwise, you're just another new guy making "new guy noise".

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

As in science, new ideas are supposed to subjected with suspicion, scrutiny, and criticism. Until a new idea passes the test of time, who knows what might fall out as a serious detriment? Consider the case of DDT, which was an absolutely wonderful pesticide, and still is. It was the go-to pesticide in the battle against typhus and malaria during WWII. The inventor even won a Nobel prize, yet, less than 24 years later, it was banned.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

There is currently a movement in Nigeria and South Africa called "DDT: A Weapon of Mass Survival". Those two countries have been joined by several more in telling the UN to "butt out". The whole environmental movement was arguably started with the publication of Silent Spring by Rachael Carson in 1962. Looking back on that horrible "science" (actually as much non-science as Ralph Nadar's Unsafe at Any Speed which killed the Corvair) that killed DDT many people have argued that that bit of creative writing has been a direct cause of over 50 million deaths from Malaria.

What was the topic of this thread again? Oh yeah, new guys who want to show their vast knowledge so as to be able to jump from "new guy" to "recognized expert" without doing the work.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

I read a very interesting study recently that claims that all of the data about falcons in Silent Spring was made up. Extrapolating an invented data set from one species to another has exactly the same validity as the original conclusion (i.e., zero). The bald eagle population increase have a number of causes, none of which is the DDT ban.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Zdas04,

There is a remarkable difference between (1) being the "new guy" who from the start wants to tell to the "old guys" how to do things, that what they do is wrong etc. and (2) sharing about a perception, which existed and still exist, and work out how to adjust it.

You can be held accountable for your actions, you cannot be held accountable for an (bad) intent if your refrain it to become an action, and definitely when it is about a perception or a feeling that is shared for the sake of reaching a rectitude in the course of actions, this deserves a different posture.

Doing exclusively as other people advise you to do, NO way :) I really consider the final outcome to be the results of many acting forces on oneself : personal instinct, anger, experience, critical thinking and even discussions coming from topic like this one and also perception above is included in the mix, you may like it or not.

No offense, I have a deep respect for your experience and knowledge and the point of the topic was made quite clear ;)

I can also ensure you that the post from Mike for instance helped me to manage even better my working day today and I thank him so much for that.





RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Sorry for the off topic regarding DDT...

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Not sure where that was coming from. My comment on the first DDT post was to try to bring the discussion back to the topic. If you took my statement in any other way, it wasn't intended on my part.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
All characters appearing in this example are fictitious. Any resemblance to real individual, workgroups, living or dead, is purely coincidental...

In a big corporation, one division is in charge of textile. There is a team in place in the production department. The team is there since three decades or so. Only couple of guys left recently for health reasons...
Team is doing very good job, they went through several market transformations, up and down, they have structured the production tools and made every possible efforts to adapt to the technological challenges and survive the threat of competition. Their contribution to the whole business is recognized. They hired few people during the last couple of months. Some of them comes from a famous R&D group recognized for their contribution in the methods for the textile industry. In fact that R&D group patented methods to optimize the production and to make the manufacturing very cost effective without compromising the quality.
Some clash occurred with the new hired people coming from the R&D group. Theses new guys knew very well what they were talking about. Still they had to adapt to their new organization that used a special textile production methodology called the "reversed process" (RP) .
Anyhow the clash persisted because the RP process was good but could be brought to the next level called the "Reversed Process Optimized by Segment" (RPOS) an idea from the new guys. The new guys knew how to lead that change even if they admitted it would not be an easy task to implement. Some economic rational behind proven that the RPOS could become the leading production system outperforming competition (8 to 12% progress in market share).
The team in place is old and very knowledgeable. However for some reason the team stayed very reluctant to introduce modifications to the RP process. The new guys explained that RPOS was not a breakthrough and exposed the plan to mitigate the risks. The team in place decided that the new guys do not have sufficient experience on the production tool in place already. They find the attitude of the new guys questionable as well. The team considered that it will take them a couple of years to get trained and get up to speed. The idea of the RPOS has been definitely discarded of course. The expertise of the new guys was said to be valid within the context of their former R&D organization.
One year later, an Asian company very will implanted in the growing markets announced the opening of two remote factories thanks to the development of new cost effective process. It turned out from an article in the specialized press that the method which has been used is based on the RPOS. The only difference was that the control of the machines is done on remote site and not fully robotized. Later on it appeared that the RPOS process led to 11% increase of sales in the growing markets....

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

I will give submit different example:

35 years ago, the silicon semiconductor industry was facing a crisis because it had been predicted that they would be butting up against the fundamental limits of the lithography technology below 1 micrometer feature sizes and that smaller transistors were essentially impossible to reliably produce. So, a technology of the future, Gallium Arsenide, was developed and heavily invested, and two new lithography technologies where developed, electron-beam and x-ray, both heavily invested. So, fast forward to today, Gallium Arsenide is the STILL the technology of the future, electron-beam lithography is essentially only being used to make lithography masks, which was where it started, and x-ray lithography is nowhere to be found. The x-ray lithography equipment company down the street had quite a spectacular flameout. The reason was the entrenched silicon/ultraviolet lithography old guard refused to accept "reality" and all the new technology, because it required fundamental changes to the manufacturing process. So, instead, they worked and slaved to develop the technology that has survived to the current generation of not just sub-micrometer, but double digit nanometer, which is about 50 time SMALLER than what the supposed limit of conventional UV lithography was supposed to be.

Now, I'm not claiming that this is the case in your situation, but many "new" and supposedly "end-all and be-all" technologies don't pass the test of time, for a number of reasons. Until your specific company is forced by increasing and more profitable competition, there may be little change at the company level. Don't forget that despite whatever the lower level guys say or do, the upper management does not necessarily take only the lower levels' inputs.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

I work in a niche industry for a very successful business- a market leader in our niche.

When we've hired people with lots of experience outside our niche, they fall into two categories:

1) The ones who after a short time with us, tell us we're doing it all wrong- that there's a formula for doing our sort of engineering properly that we must not know, that they know it, and will teach it to us if we'll only listen, and

2) The ones who realize that we've had a successful business and happy repeat customers for over two decades, and hence must be doing something right. They learn how we do things, compare it to what they've learned in past, and synthesise an approach that works for them in our niche. The group learns from their successes.

You can guess which are successful, and which aren't.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

" Extrapolating an invented data set from one species to another has exactly the same validity as the original conclusion (i.e., zero). "

Almost all medicinal experiments are done on mice, monkeys, and pigs and extrapolated to humans, seems to work pretty well most of the time.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
IRstuff,

Quoted
Almost all medicinal experiments are done on mice, monkeys, and pigs and extrapolated to humans, seems to work pretty well most of the time.
Unquoted

Do you know about the book the Bed of Procrustes ?
Procruste is a part the ancient greek mythology. Procruste took people into his room to spend the night.
When the bed was too small, Procruste cutted the legs of the people so that they fit into the bed.
When the bid is too big, Procruste stretched their legs.

This is to illustrate that when pseudo scientist don't have a model/theory that fit the reality, which happen all the time, pseudo-scientist fit the reality (increase of population of specie for instance here) into the model/theory. (use of extrapolation, past data forecasts, assumptions, gaussian curves, just to name some of the intellectual fraud tricks)

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

IRStuff,
You grabbed the wrong part of the quote to comment on. The key phrase is "invented data". I certainly understand that there are many times that useful results are extrapolated outside the original data. But if I invent a dataset from whole cloth, it is valid nowhere.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

The key phrase is "invented data"

My previous cite was from peer-reviewed articles, which essentially negates the discussion of invented data irrelevant, since the eggshell thickness has been investigated for both eagle and peregrine falcon, as well as a number of other birds. Whatever the issue is with Carson, the scientific situation remains unchanged, unless the claim is that every scientific article written before and since then are all suspect. The bottom line is that a number of bird species' populations dropped significantly, to the point of near extinction, and after the ban, the populations increased almost exponentially.

One may wish to argue coincidence, or whatever, but it seems to be an equal stretch to posit some other, unknown cause for the population drop and yet other, unknown cause for the population increase, and both are coincident with the timing of the use of DDT and the ban of DDT. Unless there is some peer-reviewed contrarian data, it seems that there is more than one set of invented data being discussed here.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

IRSTuff,
I just don't know what the hell you are talking about. I can't find a link in any of your posts in this thread to anything. The article I read claimed that the peer-reviewed science subsequent to Silent Spring was along the lines of "Observation: Peregrine falcon populations are declining. Observation: Falcon eggs are showing a noticeable thinning. Observation: DDT is in widespread use. Conclusion: DDT is killing all the raptors and there will be no birds in the skies by the year 2000." I have not read the peer reviewed articles myself and don't have an opinion as to what was the primary cause of the reversal of the decline in several raptor species. I have read the MSDS sheets on a number of the pesticides that replaced DDT and I just can't believe that those horrible chemicals are a lot better for raptor populations than DDT is, but those populations are rebounding with the new chemicals in the eco-system. We lose more migratory birds and birds of prey to windmills every year than to poisoning.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Zdas04 and IRStuff,

I am sorry to jump into the discussion. The initial point was the DDT ban is behind the increase of the eagle population.
If I am correct, the DDT is an hormonal mimics, which amongst other effects, is behind lost of fecundity and lead to sterility of embryo. I am not specialist but I have seen such explanations on a documentary.
So I am just asking myself here how could it be that the effects of DDT are reversible so easily ?
I'd expect that banning DDT would take generations to show visible improvement effect ? what about other pesticides do they really represent no risk ?
I think the fraud is in the definition of toxicity. The dose makes the poison.
So as long as the dose does not trigger any commonly agreed level of toxicity, it is considered non toxic. However, there are micro effects much more vicious (e.g. hormone mimics) than macro poison effects.



RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

The DDT issues were not passed won genetically... just the parents (or whatever animals ate the food that had it in their system). Once the chemical is out of the environment, the lives of the animals continue on as normal.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
MacGyverS2000

I don't think so. When the embryo is growing and the body of the parent is contaminated, there are malformations.
For instance when the penis does not develop completely, the baby becomes a girl. When it develop completely it becomes a boy.
When the body of the parent is contaminated by DDT, the development of the penis for what should become a boy does not evolve properly.
At the birth of the baby, the genetic system of the boy has been damaged. When the baby grow and become an adult, there are consequences on the quality of the sperm (significant decrease of spermatozoid and, this one I am less sure, decrease of the quality of the spermatozoid).
I don't see understand you very well when you say that the issues are not passed from generation to another.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/145496

Found this in 30 seconds. Unlike with AGW, it's actually possible to do studies in relation to the metabolism of a compound like DDT.

David, as smart a guy as he is, is again opining well beyond his competence. He's offering an opinion which validates his ideology, but which is not supported by fact.

DDT was tremendously life-saving as a topical insecticide during WWII- probably saved millions of lives. It continues to be a tremendously life- and health-saving insecticide when used on mosquito nets in areas where malaria is widespread. The total ban is therefore a proposition which represents a risk to human life- David is right on that point.

DDT was subsequently mis-used for broadcast spraying of cash crops such as cotton in the 1950s and 1960s, where it proved not only environmentally disastrous but also ultimately ineffective as the insects evolved resistance. DDT affects calcium metabolism in birds, leading to thin eggshells and reduced reproductive success. This gets worse the higher the bird is up the foodchain because DDT bioaccumulates to an extreme degree, being fat-soluble and low in water solubility. Eliminating the broadcast spraying resulted in an eventual rebound of the populations.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
AGW stands for ?

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

I'll say it again, rotary... the damage is not passed on to offspring as a genetic issue (though reduced number of young due to "the boys" not swimming very well is another issue). Once the chemical is out of the environment, the issue disappears. Should an affected male still knock up a female, the child will not be pre-disposed to also having poor swimmers, but he'll get that way if he eats contaminated food. It's not genetic.

I'm not sure how much less complicated I can make it...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Fascinating.
This DDT discussion is closely paralleling another well known topic even down to the same arguments despite the vast difference in the topic.

Every day i become more and more convinced that staunch conservatives have some unique cognitive feature that leads them to these same conclusions on a vast array of issues, using basically the same logical framework.

I don't think they are stupid or dishonest. There truly is something different about the mindset of the diehard conservative.

Any thoughts ??

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
MacGyver,

What you say is not quite correct, thanks for simplifying it but it does not remain less contradicting the scientific evidence.

Please look at this very exhaustive article incriminating DDT and others :
Link

Quoted
It is now becoming evident that the effects of EDC exposure are not necessarily limited to the exposed individual. Many of these compounds are now recognized to have transgenerational effects and in some cases the effects within subsequent generations are more profound than those seen in the first generation (Jirtle and Skinner, 2007; Steinberg et al., 2008).
Unquoted

Quoted
The precise mechanisms through which endocrine disrupting effects transmit to subsequent generations are not well understood but emerging evidence indicates alteration of chromosomal structure or other epigenetic mechanisms might be the primary method. Epigenetic inheritance involves changes in gene expression patterns without changes in gene sequence.
Unquoted

DDT is certainly a weapon for mass survival. It is poor and bad design chemical agent as all as its other cousins that threaten the integrity of life. It is not ideological, it is based on scientific research as posted.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
EDC Stands for :Endocrine disruptive compound

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

To all you posters:

The original subject was what should rotaryworld do to become more successful in his new job. As you review the posts above, along with his, you can see that he isn't listening to the posts that apply to his original question. You guys are being told that you are wrong and he is right. That attitude apparently will take some time on the job to be corrected.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Oldestguy,


So I repeat it, DDT and the other similar pesticide have been at the root of serious health concerns, including trans generational implications. There are extensive scientific works and findings behind (again you can refer to the link that I have already posted have you read it). If there are serious articles that states the opposite namely assessing the complete reversibility of the process : "remove/ban the cause (DDT) and everything go back to normal", I am more than open to read and see what comes out of it. But please no story about swimmers and knocking out the girl and then referring to a problem of attitude. Please rise the level of the intellectual debate. This is an important subject is n it?

When we as Engineers design process, equipment for which we are aware that the downside are more than the upside for public health and we continue doing so, it rise a problem of Ethic.

PS: Oldestguy - please no personal attack. No rhetoric on engineering forum.
I appreciate your contribution but keep the discussion professional. Thanks


IRstuff,

Quoted
Maybe that's why we've been talking about DDT for the majority of the thread...
Unquoted

It is a pure off topic and lets call things by their name. But you have risen a good example.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

I do wonder what percentage of threads are created just so someone can get something off of their chest and/or put it into words to help congeal their thoughts on the matter, treating the forum more as a blog than Q&A. Answering an actual question is secondary (at best)...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

2dye4: it's a problem with extremists on both sides of the political/social spectrum. I have similar arguments with my leftie friends about thinks like hydraulic fracturing and numerous other topics. Their minds are made up by what their ideology (or some PBS documentary or leftie blog) tells them to think. Closed mindedness and ideological thinking is not a purely right wing disease.

We might discuss who is more flexible to having their mindset altered by calm, rational presentation of the science behind an issue, though- there, you might have come upon a difference. I can occasionally convince my leftie friends that their initial, ideological positions are not supported by scientific observation. I can't say the same of friends on the right of the political spectrum.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
moltenmetal

I promise you that I am open to revisit my opinion if there is scientific evidence and if you can provide me reference and articles to read that contradict what I made up my mind for on this issue. The article you have previously posted addresses only the topic of how DDT influence on the thickness of the eggs which is fine but this can explain part of the problem and the problem is not necessarily restricted only to that. Ultimately what is happening at the hormonal level is not addressed. So from here to establish a causality rule worry me. And then extrapolating data from Duck to all species...is again debatable. Also the point was the DDT which from a Nobel prize idea at the start, turned out to be a environmental mess, and the essence of the point is to put into context a global view. And if there part of ideology from my side, might be, as I cannot claim to have reached the perfect objectivity, at least we better take a position that goes in favor of the principle of precaution.

So from you side may I ask you kindly to check the link and tell me what you think ?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC270665...

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

As for the article itself, DDT has become the subject of dueling experts. While the cited article and the FWS.gov website point to DDT as a negative thing, those on the other side seemingly also point to FWS and others for having previously claimed no deleterious effects from DDT.

At this point, I think the specific issues are essentially moot; as with things like coffee and red wine, excess amounts of anything, even water or oxygen, can cause anyone harm. Both sides seeming have their experts and studies to back their claims. But, the bottom line has to be that moderation in usage is mandatory, yet people just don't care, and will apply things like DDT indiscriminately. Would anyone really want to take the chance and ingest a cup of DDT every day for the rest of their lives? It's a chemical that can kill living things; that alone should put it in a "Use with Care" pile. Even if it were completely harmless, indiscriminate use will eventually result in DDT-resistant organisms, just like what's happened with the rise of drug-resistant staphylococcus.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

rotaryworld: my post was in response to David (zdas04), who was in a backhanded way denying that DDT was harmful to birds, i.e. that what was written in Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" was a load of rubbish. He has a strong distaste for that book, because it indirectly resulted in the environmental movement- a movement which has achieved a lot of good, but which has now devolved an enviro-religionist wing which is ideologically driven and now resists everything chemical- even using DDT on mosquito nets to control malaria.

David is wrong about DDT. Demonstrably. Proven by conclusive studies of the calcium metabolism of birds, only one of which I posted after 30 seconds of web searching.

DDT itself has very low human toxicity, which is what made it appealing- and so useful as a topical insecticide during WWII, saving millions of lives. Whether DDT is also a hormonal mimic is something unknown to me. That is one way it could affect calcium metabolism in birds, and if so it could have other detrimental reproductive effects as you've mentioned. DDT and similar compounds (PCBs, 2,4-D, 2,4,5-T, pentachlorophenol etc.) were also full of chlorofurans and chlorodibenzo p-dioxins when made by 1950s processes, which may have explained a lot of the associated human health effects. Some enantiomers of the chlorofurans, chlorodioxins and PCBs are extremely hazardous to human health.

David is dead right that many of the compounds which replaced DDT are far from harmless. But we've made wholesale changes to the way we approach managing pests on agricultural crops as a result of VALID environmental concerns in response to 1950s practices.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Although I disagree with the underlying statement of 2dye4’s comment, I believe the discussion of how world-views affect how we perceive information is an interesting topic. We need to move past the ill-conceived concept that one view is “right” and the other is “wrong”.

In my humble (and possibly naive) opinion, people’s world-view influences and is influenced by (in a cyclical process) their internal “scoring matrix” on how they determine whether something is right/wrong, fair/unfair. The crux of this scoring matrix is how the person defines what fair is; their ethical end goal. (Again, in my opinion) For the “leftist” this is Equality. For the “rightist” this is Deservedness. Neither can be more ethical than the other because they are categorically two different definitions of ethics (this is a big problem that people fail to understand when trying to show the other side the “error of their ways”).

Linguistic philosophy is required to hash out my meaning of “Equality”, “Deservedness” and “ethical end goal”, as perhaps those aren’t the most apt terms. This is a longer conversation that takes us even more off topic here.

If there is interest, perhaps I’ll start a new thread as I feel this butting of heads happens frequently on these sorts of topics (as well as in life) with little insight/understanding into why. I think 2dye4’s comment perfectly captures the misinterpretation of the other side (something I fall victim to quite a bit) and the need to acknowledge and understand the difference.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

My view on the cognitive differences between conservative / liberal thinking styles is that they are determined
by a fundamental view of human nature.

We are social creatures and occasionally need the cooperation of others.

There are two primary ways to think about achieving cooperation.

1 I have things or abilities that I can trade for others work product.
2 If I share others will share also.


If you are the (1) thinker you want to accumulate wealth and abilities in order to trade. Any social constraints put upon
you seem like stealing your capacity to accumulate.

If you are (2) you want a society where everyone shares and is expected to share in a common good type of way. I help others so that in my mind I believe they will be there when I need them. Individualistic ideology damages this sharing expectation and drives individuals apart into separate corners where they take what they can get.

These are the poles of the extreme as I see it.

Of course a healthy mind is a good mix of these two and those that inhabit the extreme are not really thinking rationally.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
2dye4,

Your point of view seems to be based only on mutual interest, both cases (1) and (2).
I think the human nature is reduced to this only if you put the third thing apart, I let you guess what is it.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
The awareness that the advises from Zdas and Mike are priceless is growing day by day. But not only.

When we discussed the DDT issue (how an idea resists the test on time), the advises received have even stronger impact with the time.It is like a long acting medicine that releases slowly in the beginning but which nothing can stop later to spread into your mind and to condition your action.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Rotarian:

You have me stumped. I've looked through my two dictionaries and am stumped.

Admittedly it has been a long time since grammar school English lessons.

So,I tried a search with "Inbox"

Here is their reply:

No matches found for Advises.

Can you advise where I can get some advice to find what advises means?

Oh and is it a noun, verb, or just what?

Wait.

Whoops, here is the result of a Google search. the answer.

advises 3rd person singular present of ad·vise (Verb)

That's funny. They call it a verb. Again, someone there must be wrong.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Oldest guy,
Rotary worlds primary language is French. It is very easy to use the English spelling for aviser and not quite have the same meaning.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
oldestguy

I meant "advice" of course in my post. I can put myself in your shoes and understand your reaction.
It is such a pain for me that I cannot communicate as you do and English native speakers do :'(

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job


Rotarian:

With an otherwise perfect utilization of this screwy language, I was poking fun. Hope you took it that way.

Probably due to my habit of helping my Swedish ham radio buddy, for which he usually thanks me.

Keep up the excellent usage! It's needed on any job. Somewhat like coming to work with the correct garb for the job.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Just got off Skype with the Swede ham buddy. He wonders if the USA has a language standard setting organization, as they do in Sweden. So far no luck searching. So, I now am curious if these parts of phrases really are standard in the USA:

I'm gonna go to .......

I got to see about doing that. Or, I have got to ....... Or, I gotta see about ...

I am thinking of, you know, maybe playing, you know, basketball some day, you know.

I see a current president using all of them. That should make them standard??? After all, the main goal of this room is "bettering one's self".

Yes, this is part of the answer to the original thread question for some. Do I help myself on the job by using these words?

I once fired an employee for some serious engineering infractions, but his mis-use (or butchering) of the language helped me to make the change. His reports always needed fixing before going out.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Every time my wife uses phrases like "You did good" instead of "You did well" in front of the munchkin, I quickly correct her... I do not want the munchkin growing up saying things incorrectly like that, no matter how socially acceptable it has become.

Of course, to be fair, I still use slang in my own speech, but I try to differentiate between proper situations... if we're joking around, the slang comes out. If we're discussing something seriously or talking with others, proper form comes into play.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

The US, unlike France, does not have a language police. What was once slang can often become mainstream, just like "The Police" being classified once as "punk," and then becoming elevator music. Language evolution is part of life; to expect stagnation in word usage and grammar is to expect cultural stagnation. There are no grammar police, and never have been, aside from zealot teachers.

TTFN
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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

OP is not native English speaker. A little slack is merited.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
IRStuff,

When people lack of argument and ideas usually they start to focus on languages. Just a funny observation :)
Proper communication and use of language is important. In Engineering it leads to confusion and misunderstandings.

Fine. But just a bit more (be careful... it is highly non linear) than what is necessary and to me it smells like sort of mediocrity or even better... It reminds me typical behavior of academics.
Sorry for being so harsh, please don't take it personally... :)

It is just something I have noticed from business context.

By the way, "Their" is plural or not ?

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Traditionally 'their' is plural, however 'their' also gets used as a gender neutral singular reference e.g. instead of "his slide rule" or "her calculator" then "their smart phone app".

I personally prefer use of 'their' for singular gender neutral over use of "his/her" or alternating between "his" & "her".

FYI there is a language and grammar forum; forum1010: Engineering Language/Grammar Skills as well as a translation assistance forum if required forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
KENAT,

Thanks a lot for the explanation and the useful link and references ;)

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
In the US, is it difficult for non native English speakers to work? I mean in daily job and especially in Engineering firms ?
Can you share your experience on this mater with regard to colleagues from other nationalities or Expats ?
Just curious.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Precisely, "their" is a simple, clean, way of attribution without gender specifics.

KENAT is from UK, if I recall correctly, so for anyone who is a fan of the Doctor, anything spoken from over there is reasonably recognizable. Depending on which companies you go to, you might find yourself in a smorgasbord of Asian accents, Indian, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc. As a general rule, if you can communicate tolerably well, and can show that you know your stuff, the accent, however thick, is not necessarily a big issue.

TTFN
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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Americans tend to regard the British accent as civilized. This is largely due to poor education in world history in the US.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Yep from the UK(oGBaNI) originally, England in specific and I've had the odd miscommunication with folks who grew up in the US but seldom anything major once I learned to speak 'merican (which for me was limited to a few extra slang terms I'd missed on the US film & TV available in the UK, some pronunciation; some spelling, some words that are far more/less common in US V UK [and vice versa] and a few odd balls like 'healthful').

Our company is a bit of a united nations, what with a lot of Hispanics, Asians (Chinese, Indian, Filipino, Korean...) and Europeans (Dutch, German, British, Russian, Polish, Bulgarian...) as well as Israeli's, other Middle East, Canadians and probably some others I've forgotten.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=349237
Some people have very little trouble - for instance the Dutch guy has English about as good as me. Some people can be a lot harder to communicate with - both them understanding what I say and me understanding what they say. It's perhaps a slight generalization but a lot of the Chinese folks have very poor English and it has been an issue at times (not just with me), which given how long some of them have been in the US can be a bit surprising.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

I think it's more of a physical and inate ability, rather than lack of desire. Emma Watson can carry off a tolerable Valley Girl, as can many actors. I assume that certain people simply have a "tin ear" when it comes to language accents. My wife's been in the US for 28 yrs, and here accent has not improved one iota, despite constant prodding on my part.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

I think it's a lot like how some Westerners attempt to learn Chinese, but can't hear the difference between "mother" and "horse," while there were quite a few on a Chinese show I watched where I couldn't tell any difference between those Westerners and native speakers. Of course, once you pay attention, you can hear Chinese from different parts of China with differing local accents, similar to the differences between, say, New Jersey and Oklahoma.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Despite repeated attempts, my wife is near-incapable of understanding accents (of any sort, it seems). This is most readily apparent when it comes to watching British shows. I think most of the reason she doesn't find Monty Python shows hilarious is because she doesn't understand what they're saying. She's completely lost watching any British series shows as the story moves faster than I can explain.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Turn on the closed captioning. Saves a lot of explaining.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

R Connor,
A delightful piece, nice to hear somebody talking without an accent.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Guys,

I want to come back to the original topic as I have some questions.

Let say you are the old guy and you are (continuously) evaluating the new guy (hire). Basically it has been made clear from the beginning of this topic by several contributors that some typical boundaries shall not be crossed by the new guy (I try to summarize hereby more or less the ideas, although some behaviors are obviously inappropriate just from a common sense point of view so to say):

- Don't tell to others that what they do is wrong, even if you believe it (particularly if you believe it) or that elsewhere things are done in better way
- Don't come and tell to others you are the expert in the field, eventually mentioning your achievements and imposing your expertise. Eventually don't even mention your previous company or where you come from. Let others discover who you are through patient, continuous and seriously applied efforts.
- Don't get impatient trying to impose your ideas and solutions to an environment that already worked with its own rules and methods (and eventually always succeeded that way).

So lets call the above the offending boundaries. The big one. Having said that, my questions relates to the following : Suppose the new guy managed to stay far from the boundaries as mentioned above (and probably others of similar offending nature). Now, there will be appreciations from the Old guys that unavoidably will occur. It pertains to the way of communicating, the way of addressing matters, to the body language, many other things of the new guy.

So by staying far from the offending boundaries, the new guy is still under scrutiny by the old one and the old guy will intentionally or not build an image of him/her which is also expected to change and evolve with time. In return, how this image is built will contribute to the success or failure of the new guy to some extent and from the very early hours of the new job. What I want to say is that when the old guy build a perception of the new guy, this is subjective and may or may not affects the work that will be assigned to the new guy, qualitatively and quantitatively, affect the way the new guy is integrated and even the efforts from the management to make the integration process smooth and successful.

In this process of building a perception in the mind of the old guy and when things operate far from the offending boundaries, it is up to the new hire to play their cards in a smart way, maximize their credit and give a good impression. But on the other hand, what are the guarantee that the subjective perception is done fairly in the same way that performance metrics allow to protect the employee from an abuse during the yearly assessment report. In other words what are the safeguards that allows a new hire to start in a rationalized context of work that maximize their chances from the start. This is a question ?
Example of possible subjective perceptions from the old guys that may (unfairly) penalize a new hire (lets call that the perception bias) :

- Being very defensive (for whatever reason)
- Magnifying small issues regarding attitude etc. and acting/deciding upon that
- Scrutinizing the language and the communication in an exaggerated way
- Cognitive bias (means always finding explanation that goes in the sense of what we hold for truth)

In these cases, my opinion is that the only safety comes from Seniors who are capable to think cold and rationalize so that they evaluate on basis quantifiable parameters even on a small sample period (same as a metric oriented evaluation on smaller scale) Which I admit is tough. This would happen in my view when the people are technically very knowledgeable. As such they become superior and immune to the perception bias and to some extent develop indulgence (because they are superior). In this way they encourage the new hire to follow them in order to learn and grow.

All in all, as long as both sides will not go too far, the process should converge and the trust will build up. But I still believe the best guaranty is the level of knowledge in the workplace.













RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Rotaryworld, I think you're overthinking this. Show up on time, mind your own business, do your best, and be happy to have a job. If anyone else has a problem with that, then that's their problem, not yours. You can only control yourself.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

- Don't tell to others that what they do is wrong, even if you believe it (particularly if you believe it) or that elsewhere things are done in better way

I don't think anyone said that specifically, because it's absurd. If it will cost the company $1million because of an error, would you really keep quiet and forego yours and everyone elses' raises for the next year? The message you should have gotten is that there is a difference between slapping someone on the face and saying, "I'm smart and you're an idiot," and gently leading them, "Could you explain where my error is in thinking that this seems to have a problem?" The former will most likely get you laid off at the next go, simply because you obviously have no people skills, and the latter is likely to result in the other person realizing the mistake on their own, and possibly give you credit for saving the company a truckload of money.

- Don't come and tell to others you are the expert in the field, eventually mentioning your achievements and imposing your expertise. Eventually don't even mention your previous company or where you come from. Let others discover who you are through patient, continuous and seriously applied efforts.

Well, duh, of course not. No one likes their inferiority to be rubbed in their faces. Show by example and deed, and not by your own crowing of your prowess.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

You expend a lot of energy justifying your actions and behavior without really considering how they are perceived by others. You will learn nothing and fix nothing that way.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Seems you're getting way into social psychology 101 territory here. Some of the stuff you're bringing up applies not just to being the new employee but being new in almost any kind of group.

I'm sure some of it is lost in translation but it really does seem you're over thinking some of this stuff a bit.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

If they assume you know nothing (right or wrong), using words instead of actions to prove them wrong is always a bad idea. My father was a machinist and pulled me into his tool & die shop at age 15, the most memorable quote from my time there was "Machine with your mouth shut". This had a dual meaning: 1) don't let your mouth hang open or else you'll be eating hot chips, 2) shut up and listen.

I'm fresh out of college too, but I know with starting this new job to do what all the shop employees here do....assume I know nothing.

Ask more questions than you give answers. Be observant. Limit mistakes to once. Work hard. Learn every day.

R. J. Hughes
versafab.com
New Kensington, PA, USA

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
The Thick,

"You expend a lot of energy justifying your actions and behavior without really considering how they are perceived by others. You will learn nothing and fix nothing that way."

Behavior, which behavior ? do you know something I don't know.
And fixing what ? I have nothing to fix. I have shared some thoughts and so what ?

It is simple, if you disagree submit your facts and explain, so that we learn from your point of view.

Nobody is in trouble and I am not trying to fix anything.
It seems there is problem to have an open discussion on this subject.
Reading this reply from you, my reaction was just wow !!

I don't take it personally (perhaps just a bit) but surely I don't want to discuss this subject anymore now. really.!

Thanks to the other posters who made it funny from times to times.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Rotary world.
Please read my tag line.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Having spent time talking to some of the older rural folks around Texas, I'm convinced that the largest impact the environmental movement had on raptor populations was social:

Successfully convincing most ranchers to stop shooting every raptor they saw.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

From a management point of view--getting along with your colleagues is critical. Bosses really do not like to babysit. (I am speaking generally here, not to you specifically).

Try to fit in. Do your best to help if asked. Do your work. Ask others for help if you need it. There is always a bit of tension with new guys as it takes a few months for them to find their footing. Work hard and you will be fine.

David
:):):)

www.kirkhammotorsports.com

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Thanks David

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

lol@thread and rotary's hypothetical examples.
irstuff nailed it in the above post. don't try to be the "all-knowing" or try to change the process with day 1 as you will probably get burned/ be burned.
and it's not certain that the boss would take your suggestions into account at all - there's a reason why "It's always been done that way."

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

dont stab your co-worker in the back while kissing your boss' ass at the same time..

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

The best lesson to be learned from this thread is that ExxonMobil funds great research into proving that the environmental movement is a complete fraud.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

Personally, I've always found it best to claim I know nothing winky smile

www.jcb.com
NX 7.5 with TC 8.3

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
quote
The best lesson to be learned from this thread is that ExxonMobil funds great research into proving that the environmental movement is a complete fraud
unquote

Someone should put this is his testament as post scriptum note saying : "I beleive the environmental movement is a complete Fraud".
This is in order to let your descendants, two or three generation ahead from now, know what their grand grand father/mother was thinking about the topic and know the way he/she cared and was concerned about them.
Then they could make an enlighted judgment about him/her for the god or the bad - as I am not judje.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

@R. J. Hughes - Best quote I have heard in a while, I am going to pass it off as my own knowledge and I may even give you credit from time to time. From my own experience "does not work well with others" is weighted triple against "is qualified for job"; I have seen a few "squeaky wheels" or get replaced or held back instead of greased (even one who was almost always right). I'm not saying to not do the best you can for the company all the time, but I have learned to weigh the moral impact of pointing out improvements to other people's work/ideas vs the bottom line impact and now I am very selective about my battles and I now I try to just "machine with my mouth shut".

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Guys, some updates on how it is going:
-I am getting a little more clue about the job. there is great potential for learning which is a very good thing.
-Regarding the interactions with others, I mean peers, till now no business as usual, it stays formal but effective. So this is fine.
-Regarding the interaction with the manager, I am trying to stick to a simple bottom-line which is to work hard (I take homework with me and keep on studying during the week ends), I also stick to very basic rules of courtesy. I try to catch the ideas so that I can implement the technical orientations effectively. In the meantime I realized that some standard action that are planned by me to get the job done (example: ask to have a brief meeting to share the status or technical clarification, select one communication channel instead of an other, asking questions for sake of clarity, trying to ask support on some aspect etc.) is systematically repressed. So the room to manoeuver is currently zero. On one area under my responsibility, I have made some amount of reading and I noticed some requirements did not pop up to the management before. I submitted the facts for consideration to let them decide what to do. I was told that I have misunderstood and to please skip the matter. In fact they did not even want to read what clause I was referring to. So since I considered the point was simple in this case and clear, I decided to just accept the status. Ultimately the management learned about the facts via another channel, then they went to read the clause and realized the issue. They went immediately into implementing corrective actions. The same is happening three of four times.
-Regarding the feeling that is being developed from a purely personal perspective. Well it is not good and I don't feel comfortable about working there, because of atmosphere of hostility. The plan is to stick to the bottom line as the last thing I need now is troubles and in this way I am buying more time. I feel that abuse toward me can be easily done, which lead me to adopt a very cautious attitude and be very extremely careful till now and onward. The feeling that "an abuse can be done toward me" comes from the fact that decisions to ignore technical requirements have been done with a very arbitrary mindset and led to corrective actions later.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

"Ultimately the management learned about the facts via another channel, then they went to read the clause and realized the issue. They went immediately into implementing corrective actions. The same is happening three of four times."

This happens to me not infrequently, I'd like to say it doesn't bug me but it does. It's worth checking if it's a 'communication skills' issue, thought in my case I'm leaning toward it not being the issue as I've been complemented on my 'communication skills' more than once. Though then again, maybe I need to tune how I communicate more for different audiences. Might be worth 5 minutes of your time to contemplate your navel on this issue.

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RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Thanks KENAT,

My communications skills are not very good.
So that could be the reason I was looking for.

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
Just for you guys to know, the feeling is now really getting worse and worse everyday

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

RW,

I appreciate your thoughts (and everyone else's) on this post. I am impressed you will engage in this conversation when English is not your native language. I speak both Polish and Spanish so I know how challenging that can be.

Keep working hard--I hope your situation improves. (Hard work usually improves one's situation and attitude).

David
:):):)

www.kirkhammotorsports.com

RE: Attitude and mindset with a new job

(OP)
thanks David for your encouragements.
it helps.

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