Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
(OP)
Greetings,
Over the past few years, I have scoured through these forums occasionally, and most of you have a ton of useful wisdom to share with everyone. So, I figured that I would ask all of you for your opinion on my recent dilemma - a dilemma which I can't seem to figure out even after about 6 months of thought. I'd really appreciate it if you could provide any insight whatsoever.
About two years ago, I graduated from a respectable college with two BS degrees (mechanical engineering and physics), and I ended up graduating at the top of my class (I did very very well in school). As you can tell, I've always been attracted to the more mathematical and technical side of engineering, and I always saw myself going back to grad school someday - as I've always been into academia both within and outside of school. Well, once graduation approached, I decided that I would take some time off from school. I wanted to work a bit and figure out what area of engineering to focus on; it seemed somewhat silly to dive straight into grad school for something as broad as just mechanical engineering. To make full use of the degree and experience, I thought that I could explore a bit, find a niche which suits me, and then delve further into that subject area's rabbit hole. Thus, I ended up snagging a very good job right before graduating at a very respectable, world-wide company. The pay was very good for a starting position ($66K), and, in general, I was treated very well at that company. However, since I am very very technical, I was instantly bored and displeased with the job. Regardless, I persevered and tried everything to find more engaging work - including sitting down with my supervisor and discussing the situation with him. Unfortunately, I continued to work on equipment quote/scope documents, and I hardly did anything considered "engineering".
Well, since I am in a "career development" type of program at the company, I was able to move to a new position after a year. Unlike the previous position, this was a "real" engineering job, and I was given many responsibilities. However, I still felt very bored with my work (mostly vessel design conforming to ASME BPVC code - including design, drafting, scope/proposal, project management kind of work....basically anything you could see in a typical engineering position). TBH, I've always been more intrigued by deriving equations and theories used for engineering ideas, and the cookbook process found within ASME codes thoroughly bothered me and squashed my curiosity (though, I see how it is somewhat needed). Out of everything I worked on, the chance to write my own program for automatically designing and sizing out equipment was probably the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in industry. Despite this dissatisfaction, I persevered and am currently moving onto another position after another year. Furthermore, I ended up getting quite a generous raise around Christmas time (I now make $74K), and both of my bosses were very satisfied with all of my work.
Well, during that last job, I decided to apply to graduate schools to open up more doors/choices for myself. When I heard back from schools, I was surprised to find out that I had been accepted to a very respected, ivy league school, and they wanted to give me a full ride (free tuition and an annual $28,000 living stipend). However, the caveat is that it would be for a phd program - which is another 4-6 years of schooling. Furthermore, I would have to quit my current job, move to the new area (it's actually closer to my hometown though), and work my ass off again. Obviously, both options (to continue to work or go back to school) are very good, and I am honored to have been offered them. However, I am lost within a cloud of ambivalence; I can't make a decision as to what to do! I have a feeling that I would thoroughly enjoy graduate school, but 4-6 years is a lot of time to invest into schooling. That would be 4-6 years of savings down the drain (at least $120K of savings lost), and 4-6 years of lost work experience. I do have 2 years of experience now, but I feel as though I would be considered entry-level still after graduating again. This makes me fear that I might have trouble getting another job after graduation (shitty job market), and I might start at what I'm making now, which would be very disappointing. Also, I have never done research before, so I don't know if I would be good at or even enjoy it; I only know that I would enjoy participating in classes once again. The whole situation is a HUGE gamble, and I have heard that a phd can sometimes be a detriment to your career.
In terms of making a wise decision, I was thinking that I could continue to work and go to a local, less prestigious school for a master's part-time instead (my employer has a reimbursement program). This way, I would still save money, get more work experience, and further my education. However, it's so hard for me to turn down the honor and respect of a free ride to an ivy league school. Furthermore, I started my 3rd, new position on Monday, and I really don't like it that much already. I haven't done much (and don't wish to jump to conclusions), but it seems like I'll be modeling stuff up in autopipe and doing absolutely no calculations (aside from allowing the program to do stress/dispalcement calcs for me). Working really makes me feel like a mindless zombie, and I'd find it difficult to work and go to school afterwards =/...
Do any of you have any advice? What would you do in my situation? Hopefully I don't sound like a whiney asshole; I am very grateful for these opportunities, but, sometimes, too many open doors can turn into a curse very quickly.
Thanks for any input you guys can provide,
Turbulent Solace
Over the past few years, I have scoured through these forums occasionally, and most of you have a ton of useful wisdom to share with everyone. So, I figured that I would ask all of you for your opinion on my recent dilemma - a dilemma which I can't seem to figure out even after about 6 months of thought. I'd really appreciate it if you could provide any insight whatsoever.
About two years ago, I graduated from a respectable college with two BS degrees (mechanical engineering and physics), and I ended up graduating at the top of my class (I did very very well in school). As you can tell, I've always been attracted to the more mathematical and technical side of engineering, and I always saw myself going back to grad school someday - as I've always been into academia both within and outside of school. Well, once graduation approached, I decided that I would take some time off from school. I wanted to work a bit and figure out what area of engineering to focus on; it seemed somewhat silly to dive straight into grad school for something as broad as just mechanical engineering. To make full use of the degree and experience, I thought that I could explore a bit, find a niche which suits me, and then delve further into that subject area's rabbit hole. Thus, I ended up snagging a very good job right before graduating at a very respectable, world-wide company. The pay was very good for a starting position ($66K), and, in general, I was treated very well at that company. However, since I am very very technical, I was instantly bored and displeased with the job. Regardless, I persevered and tried everything to find more engaging work - including sitting down with my supervisor and discussing the situation with him. Unfortunately, I continued to work on equipment quote/scope documents, and I hardly did anything considered "engineering".
Well, since I am in a "career development" type of program at the company, I was able to move to a new position after a year. Unlike the previous position, this was a "real" engineering job, and I was given many responsibilities. However, I still felt very bored with my work (mostly vessel design conforming to ASME BPVC code - including design, drafting, scope/proposal, project management kind of work....basically anything you could see in a typical engineering position). TBH, I've always been more intrigued by deriving equations and theories used for engineering ideas, and the cookbook process found within ASME codes thoroughly bothered me and squashed my curiosity (though, I see how it is somewhat needed). Out of everything I worked on, the chance to write my own program for automatically designing and sizing out equipment was probably the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in industry. Despite this dissatisfaction, I persevered and am currently moving onto another position after another year. Furthermore, I ended up getting quite a generous raise around Christmas time (I now make $74K), and both of my bosses were very satisfied with all of my work.
Well, during that last job, I decided to apply to graduate schools to open up more doors/choices for myself. When I heard back from schools, I was surprised to find out that I had been accepted to a very respected, ivy league school, and they wanted to give me a full ride (free tuition and an annual $28,000 living stipend). However, the caveat is that it would be for a phd program - which is another 4-6 years of schooling. Furthermore, I would have to quit my current job, move to the new area (it's actually closer to my hometown though), and work my ass off again. Obviously, both options (to continue to work or go back to school) are very good, and I am honored to have been offered them. However, I am lost within a cloud of ambivalence; I can't make a decision as to what to do! I have a feeling that I would thoroughly enjoy graduate school, but 4-6 years is a lot of time to invest into schooling. That would be 4-6 years of savings down the drain (at least $120K of savings lost), and 4-6 years of lost work experience. I do have 2 years of experience now, but I feel as though I would be considered entry-level still after graduating again. This makes me fear that I might have trouble getting another job after graduation (shitty job market), and I might start at what I'm making now, which would be very disappointing. Also, I have never done research before, so I don't know if I would be good at or even enjoy it; I only know that I would enjoy participating in classes once again. The whole situation is a HUGE gamble, and I have heard that a phd can sometimes be a detriment to your career.
In terms of making a wise decision, I was thinking that I could continue to work and go to a local, less prestigious school for a master's part-time instead (my employer has a reimbursement program). This way, I would still save money, get more work experience, and further my education. However, it's so hard for me to turn down the honor and respect of a free ride to an ivy league school. Furthermore, I started my 3rd, new position on Monday, and I really don't like it that much already. I haven't done much (and don't wish to jump to conclusions), but it seems like I'll be modeling stuff up in autopipe and doing absolutely no calculations (aside from allowing the program to do stress/dispalcement calcs for me). Working really makes me feel like a mindless zombie, and I'd find it difficult to work and go to school afterwards =/...
Do any of you have any advice? What would you do in my situation? Hopefully I don't sound like a whiney asshole; I am very grateful for these opportunities, but, sometimes, too many open doors can turn into a curse very quickly.
Thanks for any input you guys can provide,
Turbulent Solace





RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
You keep banging on about money, compared with what you will earn later in life what you get now is just to keep you alive, compound interest may be a powerful investment tool, but by the time you knock inflation back out of it your small savings now probably won't mean a whole lot in 30 years time. A PhD will.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
If I was in your shoes, my biggest worry would be the subject of my thesis.
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Since you said you did very very well at school, you will for sure contribute positively.
Said this and from my own experience, the mindset and perceptions we have at the start may also change after engaging and growing up in an engineering job. Probably the cognitive distortion will be greater at the beginning than for others.
I even wonder if someone make it happen, it will not lead to become a particularly good performer in engineering ?
Finally I suggest you to read the book of ''the element'' from Ken Robinson.
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
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RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
My undergrad degrees were in mechanical engineering and computer science. I too graduated at the top of my class. I have been working for about a year and a half now in a big engineering consultancy. Just like you, the work did not interest me at all, and I saw no opportunities elsewhere in the company that really appealed to me. When I was at university the separation between 'weekdays' and 'weekends' did not exist for me. I enjoyed learning, I looked forward to go to uni and I rarely experienced the Sunday afternoon low that I do now.
I never thought about doing a PhD because it looks far too time consuming with little reward at the end. I want to stay in industry but do more interesting work. I've accepted entry into a computational mechanics masters program in Germany which I'm really excited about. Regardless, it's scary, and I still get moments of doubt if I should be doing this or not. But I think that's my nature as I've never really been a risk taker. I feel its the right choice as it will give me the opportunity to develop myself both technically and personally. Late last year I undertook a project in my free time to develop a non-trivial finite element solver from scratch, which was very interesting and lot of fun. It was basically what convinced me to pursue graduate studies in that field. I don't think the prestige of the university really matters all that much, especially in engineering. I would worry more about what it is you would be studying and if you think you would enjoy it or not...
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
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RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
PhD or not...
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Maui
www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Funny, we have a lot of PHD's at my employer, and based on what I've seen I'm tempted to say PhD's might be over appreciated. While some of the PhD's are so much better than me it's not funny, as many or more fail to impress, and there are good few non PhD's that are better than many of the fairly good PhD's. A couple of the new PhD's fresh from school are frankly not even as good as some of the interns we had that hadn't even completed their bachelors. I'm starting to get the impression that in many cases having a PhD isn't so much a sign of greater intelligence as a sign of greater willingness to hang around university for a good bit longer.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
That should be engraved over the doorway of every laboratory.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
I'd like to think that there are at least a few of us with a PhD who actually know what we are talking about. From the comments that I've read in this discussion so far I get the impression that the people here think the majority of PhDs are worthless academic weenies. That's not always the case folks. I'd like to think that the contributions I've made to these forums over the years serve as a demonstration of that counterpoint.
Maui
www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
We all probably know at least one doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc. who we would consider to be below average in intelligence. This is normal. If you start out with an idiot and provide them with a formal education, you'll end up with an educated idiot. The process doesn't change who you are. But if you are fortunate enough to receive a good education it does expose you to what has been learned by the others who came before you. What you do with that knowledge depends entirely on you. But in the end it guarantees you nothing.
The range of capabilities among people are huge, whether they receive a formal education or not. A good example of this is Srinivasa Ramanujan, a brilliant man who possessed an incredible aptitude for mathematics. You can read about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan
He died at a relatively young age, but provided insight into mathematical concepts and research that is still being pursued to this day. And he didn't even have a bachelor's degree as far as I know. In physics Michael Faraday is another good example. PhDs are underappreciated here in the United States because industry does not value them. In Germany the story is very different. The educational system they have in Germany tends to do a better job of weeding out the slackers, and PhDs there command well deserved respect. I wish it was that way here.
Maui
www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
It sound like you want the ultimate compromise of a good steady income and a doctoral degree. It is possible to do this - painful but possible. With the right student, sponsor and university you can try to arrange to study part-time for a doctoral degree while continuing to work a normal job. It will require some special approvals from most universities such as a waiver on the typical residency requirements and completion times for milestones (entry exams, candidacy, thesis proposal, etc.) but for a good student any wise institution is willing to bend the rules a bit.
My advice is to follow the path of the professional MS degree, but select all of the coursework so that it will be applicable to the doctoral degree requirements as well. Complete 100% the coursework and MS program and then you can devote all of your part-time work to the necessary doctoral functions without the additional burden of coursework during your doctoral studies. There is one major trick here in that you will probably have to find your own funding. There is plenty of money out there from non-profit societies and they are always searching for applicable research programs that their members will find interesting.
Start with the MS, get most of the coursework out of the way and then begin planning your proposal for funding and to the university towards your final term of coursework.
GOOD LUCK - this is not by any means the easy path, but it is the path that will accomplish your goals of theoretical/academic higher education and you will continue to have a strong income. Expect a total of 8 years at least for the MS+PhD part time, and say goodbye to all weekends and evenings for that time period.
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
In my view, a Ph.D. IS an indicator of superior intelligence.
I don't know how that can be disputed.
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Additionally, unless they both had the same professional and personal interests there would be no way to accurately compare their level of intelligence. In the extreme example... The Ph.D. loves to do math and spend time inside writing computer programs. Other guy is a tribesman somewhere in the jungle. Neither of them would survive in the others world. Who is more intelligent?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
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RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
i briefly worked at an institute where they did pipe stress (low-cycle thermal fatigue, nuclear reactor pipes) with Abaqus.
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
So Snorgy, I dispute your contention base on my experience - a small data set admittedly but there you have it.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
So It is like a girl who always talk about you, in your presence or absence, in good terms but always go with the bad guy for the 'real' stuffs. Basically this is the deal : you feel well appreciated but you are simply out of the real game.
So later on I pushed in the opposite direction of Ph.D of course but not only. I even started to have some discomfort with Research and Development engineers and started to feel more secure close to the guys who are doing the more basic stuffs, I realized that they know the market, the clients, the politics behind (long stories behind product and business success), what I mean is the guys who prefer to stick with some old good/proven solutions and who concede to implements changes and improvements only very exceptionally because they are pro-science but with the kind of balance I do like. Everyone in the story can execute his assignment properly that is not the point. The point is the difficulty and complexity of things and the very profound gap between empirical knowledge and theory.
Sorry just me perception of things, forgive me for that. No offense to Ph.Ds, again just how I developed my own view on which I based some of my career choices.
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
I also went the two BS route in college, though I did not graduate top of class. I didn't study hard enough I suppose.
To answer your question you need to identify what it is you want out of life. Money is a tool to enjoy life. You also want to derive satisfaction from what it is you do at work and you feel that working on more challenging analytical problems would provide that. My thinking is once you learn the more difficult math and it becomes rote then you would lose the challenge yet again. To provide the intellectual stimulation you desire it appears that projects will have to be more or less unique each time.
Now what is stopping you from doing a bit of both? Working at a job that industry values and making a good paycheck while doing independent study to broaden your abilities. Dean Kamen didn't graduate yet seemed to do alright for himself and his work is probably very satisfying. The access to information is so easy nowadays. www.mit.edu has a lot of free resources on advanced engineering and science topics. More then most can devour in a decade or five. So since the PhD DOES have huge opportunity costs and money is a concern work to beef up your skills on your time. Get paid on someone else's time and keep an eye open for a job that will allow you to use your new knowledge in a field you like.
You also cannot discount the skills you learn in the private sector that university usually won't expose you to.
Now if you prefer the university feel and environment then go the PhD route and do some research/teach. Find a means to do some consulting if you miss the lucre.
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
you can do it through hard work of course, but on the other hand being indespensible makes it even more difficult for your boss to let you go (depends on company structure, standardds though) to some other dept in the company (if it even has one).
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Man, since this post, so much stuff has happened; yet, now I feel just as confused as I once was. Here's a recap of everything that happened over the past few months and, again, a plea for advice. Any input/wisdom from you guys would be very appreciated; I'm at a very low point right now. Last minute, I decided to just take the dive and plunge straight into the PhD program. So, I set up a leave of absence with my employer, left on very good terms, and set up arrangements for a job after graduation (just in case). Well, at first, I really seemed to like the program and enjoyed the material. However, I quickly learned that a phd program is drastically different from any undergraduate program, and a lot of qualities surrounding the class structures have really started to irritate me. For one thing, I'd say that 75% of class material is expected to be learned outside of class/lectures/provided resources. Normally, I'd be fine with this sort of thing. However, given that we have so little time and sometimes no textbooks for classes, I find myself spending more time looking for usable resources - as opposed to actually learning (which can be very frustrating). Furthermore, a lot of the content is VERY abstract, and, while I thought I liked theory, I feel like I would never use this material ever again in my entire life. I spend a LOT of time (until now, I would spend almost every second studying in a day) studying this material, and I still find that I'm struggling in grasping the ideas; their abstract nature makes it very difficult to fully understand.
Here's the dilemma: I feel like I'm completely grinding myself down working on this material, and I'm starting to think that it's all not worth it at all =/. I have learned some practical information (mostly transport stuff related to diffusion, conduction, and fluid mechanics), but I'm not doing well in any of my classes (despite all of the time invested into everything). Furthermore, I've failed all of my exams (though...averages were very very low) despite knowing the material very thoroughly, and I'm not even sure if I'm going to be able to utilize this degree in the long run if I fail everything. I really want to do well and succeed, but, at this point, I feel like my time would be better invested into something else; I'm starting to think that this is certainly not for me and have been heavily contemplating dropping out and going back to my former employer. Have any of you dropped out of graduate school, and, if so, what happened after doing so? Did it adversely affect your marketability in the work force? Did you ever wish that you had finished everything? I hate quitting things and have always done very well in everything that I've attempted, but I am beyond discouraged at this point and just want to be happy. A part of me is pushing me to at least get a master's degree (which would be at least 1.5 more years) especially since I have free tuition and a stipend, but my heart is starting to lose interest in everything. I'm starting to feel my passion for engineering - which was burning very fiercely upon graduating undergraduate - completely dying. It's a combination of feeling underutilized and bored in industry with the discouragement experienced in graduate school; it's as if I'm a statue being reduced to dust blowing in the wind. *sigh* What would you guys suggest that I do?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Get laid.
Get drunk.
Studying like a robot is not working for you.
So do it differently.
It doesn't matter what you change, because none of it is working.
Change something at random.
Evaluate your situation.
Take appropriate action.
Recurse.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
I don't know if that your case, but I think graduate courses are all about the details, nuances, and esoterica; otherwise, you'd get everything you need in undergrad classes. Nonetheless, not everyone is cut out to get PhDs; otherwise, everyone would have one. Have you every seen Professional Master Chef, where they try to get chefs to do the Michelin one and two star cooking? It's all about detail and perfection; just throwing a pork chop on the plate is nowhere good enough. You say you failed all your tests; did you get the exams back? Have you reviewed them to find out what you missed, and are they things you can fix for the next test? I have to wonder whether you have what it takes?
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RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Do you guys think that I would hurt my career if I quit after this semester and went back to my old employer? I was very cautious when leaving (set up a leave of absence) and have very good references and reputation within the company. I see no reason why I wouldn't be welcomed back. Before talking to them, I might throw out a few resumes, but I feel like I'm in an awkward position. With 2 years of experience, I have too much experience to apply for the entry-level positions, yet most experienced positions are asking for at least 5 years of experience. Any advice? I think that the best approach would be to finish up the semester and then call it quits if I'm still not feeling it.
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
I would expect that the instructor would disagree. I think that too many students have gotten lazy, and expect exams to reflect some problem the instructor already covered. Many lazy instructors in the primary and secondary, and even college levels will give out the exam problems ahead of time. That should not be the case; in college, we had take-home, open-book exams, because the instructors knew that there were no problems in class or homework that were copied into the exams. The exams are supposed to force you to extrapolate from the information in the text and homework into new problems. That's the whole point of the post-graduate degrees; that's what's supposed to earn you a "Master of Science" degree.
When you are working real engineering invention problems, there is not necessarily any textbook or paper that will have the solution. So, yes, a new problem has little to do with anything you previously did, and you are paid the big bucks to figure out how to solve these new problems, particularly as a PhD.
There have been recent surveys that show that secondary school students are generally woefully unprepared for college. Likewise, many college graduates are woefully unprepared to do real work or to take on post-graduate work. This is nothing new, per se, only the percentage of the unprepared has changed. I've run across an alleged BSEE that got a 4.0 GPA from college who couldn't solve a trivial circuit problem, i.e., he was accidentally given the same problem 3 times and couldn't solve it, even after it had been explained to him twice.
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RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Other engineers may also possess some of these qualities, but it is likely that may also not..
TurbulentSolace, don't fret the marks in grad school. I can tell you that as long as your marks are not vastly below your peers you will be fine. The dept. will not fail the entire class. This I can tell you for sure. So no worries.
Fe (IronX32)
RE: Continue Working or Pursue a Graduate Degree?
Seems like you are a smart guy who just needs a more technical position. Try networking within your previous company to find out which positions look attractive to you or find a job with another company.
I think people who want Phds know it early on and do not go back and forth. They have a specific personality and mindset.