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Building Collapse in Philly

Building Collapse in Philly

Building Collapse in Philly

(OP)
Something to keep an eye on....

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

A report I read said that a building adjacent to it was undergoing demolition at the time.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

Looks like someone cashed in on a two for one sale!

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

I used to work two blocks from there. That is the last corner to be rebuilt. There are million dollar condos across the street.

Michael.
"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved." ~ Tim Minchin

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

Every time something like this happens I my respect for the media drops more and more. The mayor, fire chief and other city officials gave a brief update. In it, they mentioned that a demolition permit had been issued. The media, then took this piece if information and stated "that it just collapsed, they were doing it by the book".

This really makes you wonder what else they have no clue about and are just stringing words together to fill time.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

This reminds me of some red flag I put up recently on a project I am working on involving a small 6" CMU wall over the top of an existing concrete parapet. The wall was part of an existing add-on structure to the south that was due to be demolished. Did forensics on it and found no attachment of the CMU wall to the parapet as I suspected. Had the wall been taken down without investigating the situation further, it would have fallen to the north damaging the building to the north. Now we have to install a bracing mechanism prior to the demolition.

As structural engineers, we just have to do our homework and think out of the box. Smaller scenario, but the same issue...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

Hide this from the Truther crowd: according to them (at least the ones I've talked to) nothing like this happens during a demo. smile


RE: Building Collapse in Philly

From those photos, it seems like the demo plan involved gutting the interior of the building, leaving a three story free standing masonry wall teetering above that single story Salvation Army. Eeek.

"We shape our buildings, thereafter they shape us." -WSC

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

The adds you had to look at to see the pics pissed me off no end. I gave up.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

And, of course, the Philly permitting process is perfect and completely assures everybody that the demo will be perfect and - once a permit is issued - the Philly demo crews will do their jobs perfectly.

a permit does nothing but give the mayor a covering in the press for his political bottom line.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

From reports I've seen, the demo had created a tall section of unbraced, unreinforced masonry wall, and a machine found in the rubble may have been in use and may have caused vibrations. The best comment I read in all of this was, "It is unclear if this had anything to do with the demo underway in the building that collapsed."

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

Now they are saying the excavator operator was high on pot and has turned himself in to police.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

And no one else noticed? The job foreman really knows his personnel well...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

There more here than meets the eye. Some have even pointed to the bad record of the demolition contractor. Only time will tell the complete story or atleast a part of it.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

OSHA is living in some dysfunctional parallel universe, displaced back 50 years in time, and in inflation.

The defendants' lawyers fees will likely exceed the fines imposed for killing six people.

They should be hanged.

No, wait; they should be crushed under a big pile of brick.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

They can only do what their rules allow, and the available fines structure is what it is. Even an egregious fine would only be multiplied by the small number of exposed workers, for the respective employers, for the few days of exposure.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

The fines are ridiculous. But I think they hurt more for public relations reasons and more importantly as evidence of negligence in litigation.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

OSHA regulates employee safety, not safety of the general public. If the authorities thought appropriate, they could bring charges of murder or manslaughter against the people responsible, and they're all liable for civil damages. But OSHA wouldn't be involved in those charges, only in the employee safety aspect of it.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

JStephen,
Surely that is a copout. Some of the people who were killed in that building were employees...of the thrift shop. Their occupational safety is just as important as the employees of the demolition contractor.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

How is it a copout? As JStephen indicated, it's not their place. There are other means for the injured and families of the dead to recover damages. I'd rather these things continue to flow through the legal channels than have a government agency handing out fines and damages as it sees fit. Not to mention that OHSA fines go right into the government general fund and not to victims.

Per the Reuters article, there have already been 15 suits filed and the owner of one company is in jail awaiting charges.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

Some pertinent points:

The ENR article quotes an OSHA representative saying the contactors had "deliberate neglect of demolition fundamentals".

The Reuters article states one of the contractors is in jail awaiting a preliminary hearing on charges of involuntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment.

Neither article had details on any pending civil litigation.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

"In addition to city and federal government probes, lawyers for more than a dozen people injured and the families of the dead have filed 15 lawsuits in the case."

Assuming the majority of us are employees, then any harm to humanity could be cited as endangering employees. But it's not OSHA's job to run around and investigate every murder and traffic accident that occurs, either.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

It is OSHA's job to minimize workplace deaths.
I don't think they've done an exemplary job even in places where the casualties occur entirely within the workplace.

In this instance, the workplace perimeter was arguably extended to include parts of an adjacent building, by the act of toppling the building being deconstructed on top of said adjacent building. Therefore at least some of the innocents died within the offending workplace.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

No, the "workplace" does not extend into adjacent buildings occupied by other parties, which is the whole issue. If that adjacent building had been considered part of that "workplace", it would have been vacated also.

OSHA is not the federal police agency, and there are all kinds of safety, health, and liability issues that do not fall under their jurisdiction. "The general duty clause of the Act states that each employer 'shall furnish...a place of employment which is free from recognized hazards that are causing or are likely to cause death or serious physical harm to his employees.'" The "likely to cause death or harm to employees" is what OSHA is fining for in this case. The "actually did kill other people on the adjacent property" is a potential criminal case, and a civil liability case, but not OSHA's part of it; that's the police, the district attorney, and the civil court's part of it.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

OSHA regs or not, a little bit of forethought and prudent thinking would have contributed nicely here.

Trouble is, it was probably all about the money - as in shutting down businesses for a month or so during the demolition of the areas closest to the businesses - that drove the decision. But, what do I know? noevil

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

The police and the courts only clean up the mess and distribute blame, after something bad happens.

OSHA is supposed to prevent the bad stuff happening in the first place.

Their record is an embarrassment. What a pitiful excuse for a Federal agency.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

The contractor has been charged with six counts of third degree murder in addition to other charges.

RE: Building Collapse in Philly

From what I have read, the joists were removed from within the building and the steel sold for scrap. The exterior walls were left with no cross-ties. I believe that coupled with some heavy equipment within the building causing vibrations caused the unsuuported walls to topple. The architect tried to point out to the demo contractor this was an issue, and apparently he didn't listen. And now a bunch of people are dead. This demo guy needs to go to jail for a long time, and anyone out there that does this work better pay attention.

This could have all been avoided. So sad.

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