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online engineering for sale
8

online engineering for sale

online engineering for sale

(OP)
Came across this website - http://www.virtualengineer.com/ - Nothing too exceptional about it but it got me to thinking -
Under US engineering laws, if one "sells" engineering consulting (i.e. "need a beam size" statement from the website) and the person asking, and the project, is in a state in which the online engineer is not licensed, and they provide a beam size, doesn't this violate the law?

RE: online engineering for sale

There was a quite long thread about a similar topic within the last year or so. A quick search that I conducted was unable to return something, but it is out there.

RE: online engineering for sale

Honestly, I dont think what that website is doing is that much different than what you guys do on eng-tips. This guy is just asking for money for his opinions.

For sale or not, I think giving out engineering design opinions to random people in god knows what state or country is borderline unethical.

RE: online engineering for sale

4

Quote (MainMan10)

what you guys do on eng-tips.

A bit disingenuous don't you think, MM10? Considering that you have both asked and answered questions herein, it is offensive that you want to separate yourself from the rest of us by your statement.

Realizing that you have not been an Eng-Tips member that long, perhaps you don't yet understand the premise and intent of Eng-Tips....it is for ENGINEERS to discuss ENGINEERING points and issues with other ENGINEERS. These are not "random people". It is not a DIY forum and there is no intent to offer engineering to the public, free or otherwise. That's the difference and it is a big one. Further, it is peer reviewed by design and in most cases an appropriate answer is gained from the responses.

As for the point that JAE brought up, it is my opinion that such activity violates both the spirit and letter of engineering laws in the US with which I am familiar. Engineering should not be practiced in a vacuum and should not be so lightly engaged as to be done with such limited and partial information as would be provided by a non-engineer soliciting online engineering services.

RE: online engineering for sale

My 47 posts is in no way comparable to your 3000+ posts in tech forums and I'll leave it at that unless you really want to get into it Ron.

You dont know the real background on 99 percent of the folks on here. This site is open to the public no matter what the intent is and you're offering engineering opinions, advertised as a PE. Just because the opinions are free and are posted on a forum website verses your own website doesn't really make a difference. Neither eng-tips or virtual engineer implies that the opinions can be used in the real world without an appropriate licensed individual actually making the final call. Therefore, while virtual engineer has the potential to be abused by people who know less (hopefully this California PE can smell a homeowner trying to take his design and run with it), it is fundamentally the same as this site.

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
I guess I side with Ron here.

At least in the forums I visit here, you can tell who is, and who is not, and engineer just based on the level/depth of the questions.

Another big difference here is that original posters who ask for free engineering services, beam sizes, etc., are typically kicked off the site.

Eng-Tips tends to give tips on "how to fish" while the other site appears to give out fish for a fee.
Eng-Tips provides direction, suggestions, references, links, shared experiences, etc.
The other site simply offers engineering services for folks who need those services (i.e. non-engineers)

With multiple posters answering questions and challenging posters if they don't appear to be engineers.

There is a huge difference.

RE: online engineering for sale

I don't see any issue here. The website clearly mentions that all the questions will be answered by licensed professionals. If that is the case...what difference does it make if they are providing services via internet or in person.

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
The difference is the project could be in a state where the engineer isn't licensed...which is unlawful.

RE: online engineering for sale

It is true Greg that some engineering does not have to be performed by one who is licensed as such in certain situations, but that is not the case here.

And as for the lawyers, this is not one for their call, but the individual state boards where the projects are located. This is recognized princple in the professional engineering community that has been established by state statures that an engineer must be licensed in the state where the project is, not just where the engineer has his office and does the work. And that is the problem here, and it is VERY basic. That is why we have to get licensed in each and every state we practice. No different than an attorney or doctor in that regard. I have to agree with Ron and JAE here.

Personally, I think the issue needs to be brought before a few state boards as formal complaints. The individual states that he is licensed in California, but mentions no others. That IS an issue for projects in other states. He is advertising as a professional engineer on the internet that reaches all 50 states, as well as other countries, and he is taking compensation for his services. That incurs the reliance of the client on his judgement and services, and professional liability. The courts would not expect a homeowner to know that an engineer must be licensed in the state where the project is (to the same level as a professional engineer), but they would expect a professional engineer to know that, and they would hold him to it ovr the homeowner.

Seems to me that liability would be one H300 of a problem here a this individual has absolutely no way to verify the conditions of beam loading or lateral design other than the testimony of the owner or person asking for the solution.

I would be very interested to know if, outside of California, any of his work was submitted to a local jurisdiction and was suuccessful in obtaining a building permit.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: online engineering for sale

The website clearly said they are licensed in California. So, the law will take its own course if they are offering services to projects that they are not supposed to. In the mean time the world is open for them to sell their services. Just because I am make my services available to the whole world for a fee doesn't make me a law breaker.

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
I didn't "chuck" words around. I said it "could" be unlawful if the project is in a state where the online engineer isn't licensed. That is simply a fact of the law.

strucguy refers to letting the law take its course. I would agree.

I don't agree with the last statement: "Just because I am make my services available to the whole world for a fee doesn't make me a law breaker."
Many states explicitly make unlawful even the promotion of engineering in their state without a license (Nevada for one). So offering services online to a Nevada resident would be against the law.

RE: online engineering for sale

Many years ago there was a company doing exactly this type of engineering. Many boards came down on them very hard and they quickly dropped off the web!!

Just what I rememeber.

RE: online engineering for sale

It's a website for god's sake and it can been seen by a resident from here in Nevada to as far as in Malaysia. And just because the law in Malaysia doesn't let me offer any engineering services there, do you mean to say I need to take my website down. The website didn't explicitly say they are offering services to someone in Nevada nor did they mention they are not licensed in Nevada. Now in all fairness let's let the people who are offering those services decide who they want to offer their services to, and let the law take it's own course. I don't see how this is any different to anyone opening an engineering firm here in Connecticut and creating a website that says they are licensed in Connecticut and willing to offer some engineering services. Just because someone in Nevada is able to see this website doesn't amount to the other person promoting their business in Nevada, does it?

RE: online engineering for sale

strucguy:

This is not Malaysia. It's just not the same thing legally. It is the US, and the guy is licensed in California. He should know the law here, and, hopefully as the US citizen that he is, is certainsly subject to them. Even if yhe is not a citizen, he is still subject to, and bound by, the laws of the state in which he resides. Let the state boards decide on this one... again.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
strucguy - I think you are mis-understanding my root issue with this.

Yes it is a website - nothing wrong with that. Nothing illegal about it. It's all good.
The concern is not the website.

The concern is the issue of the practicing of engineering by the website engineer (a Calif. PE) in another state where they may not be licensed.
The website is simply the vehicle for the communication - not the illegal act itself.

My own firm has a website and we advertise our services - someone in a state where we are not licensed could certainly contact us for services.
At that point we would have to tell them that we are not licensed in the state of X and would have to get licensed to serve them.

This is NOT what the subject website appears to be doing and thus my questioning of their offering to anyone, anywhere, that they can provide engineering "online" for a fee.
If they do that - and don't give a damn where the project is, and they provide a beam size for example, they are breaking the law if it's in a state where they are licensed.

The earlier thread on another website was mentioned (see Flashset's reference above) - I recall speaking with a local state engineering board official about it and they said they were powerless to
investigate something like this unless someone had evidence that an non-licensed person provided engineering services in our state.

My presumption on situations like this is that if an engineering design gets inspected, or needs a permit, then the governing authority will request an engineering sealed/signed document and that would be the trigger to flush out any illegal activity.





RE: online engineering for sale

I know you guys are honing in on the one line with "beam size", but he is also offering:

Got a question on building a project?
Do you need to know what the building code says about anything?
Need information on wind or seismic design?
Just looking for general information or direction?

If you need to know anything about architectural items such as energy and insulation, ADA requirements, finish materials, exiting, set backs, stairways, lighting, fire resistively, roofing or just about anything else, all is available.

You can get answers online at a very reasonable cost.
No question is too small or insignificant.

Which in essence is a paid version of this site.


RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
That's true.
But "beam size" implies that any other design solutions are available as well I guess.

I'm not reporting the guy. It will be interesting to see if, in the coming years, we hear about engineering boards responding to things like this more often.

RE: online engineering for sale

Quote (msquared48)

This is not Malaysia. It's just not the same thing legally. It is the US, and the guy is licensed in California. He should know the law here, and, hopefully as the US citizen that he is, is certainsly subject to them. Even if yhe is not a citizen, he is still subject to, and bound by, the laws of the state in which he resides. Let the state boards decide on this one... again.

Hate to break it to you- but "This" or "here" (being Eng Tips or the web) is not the US either- it's a website accessed by engineers internationally. Local laws where the server/contributors etc are based will differ. I'm in Australia for example.

As a chem eng/metallurgist the first part of any answer I give starts with "It Depends"

RE: online engineering for sale

The question is whether his website is considered to be an "offer to practice engineering" in a particular state. The answer, most likely, is no. Since the person is not physically in the other states; they cannot claim that he's "practicing engineering" "in" their state, particularly if the same activity is legal in the person's home state, and the person cannot be proven to perform these activities "in" a state where he's not licensed. So long as he is performing legal acts within the state where he is physically located, the fact that his customers are out of state would seem to be irrelevant, particularly if there is no federal law that applies.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: online engineering for sale

Does providing a design solution immediately break licensing rules? ie, Are you required to stamp plans with beam or footing sizes that contractors use for estimating a project?

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
I don't think so in all cases. Some beam sizes might be for residential homes where an engineering stamp is not required.

RE: online engineering for sale

Quote (itdepends)

...

Hate to break it to you- but "This" or "here" (being Eng Tips or the web) is not the US either- it's a website accessed by engineers internationally. Local laws where the server/contributors etc are based will differ. I'm in Australia for example.

Then again this could be Malaysia, and the guy is not licensed to practice, as far as we know.

--
JHG

RE: online engineering for sale

Exactly IR...

He, the Architect/Engineer in question that posted the website, is licensed to practice in California in an A/E role, with all the limitations and priviliges of those titles, for projects that are in California - but nowhere else where licensure for similar projects is required, at least according to his website posting.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: online engineering for sale

Then he can only prctice in CA - I have no problem with that. But many states say you have to "meet" with client and ascertain their real needs and survey the project. Kind of hard to do over the "Net"

RE: online engineering for sale

Quote:

Does providing a design solution immediately break licensing rules? ie, Are you required to stamp plans with beam or footing sizes that contractors use for estimating a project?

at least in some states, the answer is yes.

for one particular state, here are the rules and most other states are similar

Quote:

Use of Seals
A. A permanently legible imprint of the registrant’s seal and signature shall appear on the following:
1. Each sheet of drawings or maps;
2. Each of the master sheets when reproduced into a single set of finished drawings or maps;
3. Either the cover, title, index page, or first sheet of each set of project specifications;
4. The cover, index page, or first sheet of addenda or change orders to specifications;
5. The cover, index page, or first sheet of bound details when prepared to supplement project drawings or maps;
6. The cover, index, table of contents page, or first sheet of reports, specifications, and other professional documents prepared by a registrant or the registrant’s bona fide employee; and

...
D. A registrant shall sign, date and seal a professional document before the document is submitted to a client, contractor, any regulatory or review body, or any other person, unless the document is marked “preliminary” or “not for construction.”

RE: online engineering for sale

And JAE, in your post of Feb 4 a few posts up you stated that "If they do that - and don't give a damn where the project is, and they provide a beam size for example, they are breaking the law if it's in a state where they are licensed."

I assume you meant to say "... in a state where they are NOT licensed.", correct?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: online engineering for sale

There are may countries I know that follow British standards and don't require an engineer to be registered to provide design services for minor buildings and in some cases for all buildings. Also, there any many states in US that don't require physical presence or even ask for personal interaction with client to deliver design services.

RE: online engineering for sale

"for projects that are in California - but nowhere else where licensure for similar projects is required, at least according to his website posting."

Precisely, he's doing all his engineering in Mendecino, CA, so I still don't see where he's breaking any California laws, or any other states' laws. Moreover, in California, homeowners are exempt as well, providing they meed code and have proper permits. If other states have similar laws, then any homeowner can task this guy to draw up plans and use them without violating any laws. There are several companies that provide this type of service: http://lindal.com/homes/gallery/home_plan_spotligh...

TTFN
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RE: online engineering for sale

IR:

For me to do a project that is in California, I have to get licensed in California. Currently I am not. I would lose my license in Washington if I did so, if I was censured by the state board in California for doing so - they would let the Washington State board know.

This case is no different, just the players and states are changed here.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: online engineering for sale

I wonder if he has picked up any new business with all the new hits you just gave his website...

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: online engineering for sale

msquared48 -

How can you conclude the professional under consideration is trying to do a project in a state that he is not licensed in. Just because he/she is offering his/her services online?? Why can't we just assume that apart from California, he may be offering services in those areas or countries that don't require an engineer to be licensed? That could be a possibility, right? Then, I don't see anything unlawful about the case.

RE: online engineering for sale

If that is all it is, I might agree, but I see no disclaimers or limitations advertised that would lead me there. Would it not be prudent for him to include such statements on his website so we do not have to have discussions such as this?

You know, I strongly suspect that when the state licensing laws in most of the states were written, the web did not exist with all of the ramifications mentioned here. I stll maintain that this issue will have to be sorted out by the individual state boards. It will not be solved here.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: online engineering for sale

The safest assumption when dealing with engineers is that the other guy is not entirely stupid. I expect if you ask him to work on a project where he is not allowed to go beyond general advice, then he will specify that the calculations are preliminary only and the final design will need to be prepared by a PE in that state. As for overseas work, I am sure there are more than a few PEs doing precisely that.

Sure there is the potential to be breaking your closed shop laws, then again every time I get in my car I could break the law, the cops don't arrest me on sight.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
I asked a couple of state boards in which I'm licensed about this question - Illinois provided a pretty strong response:


Anyone offering engineering services in Illinois, whether it be on the internet or based in an office in either Illinois or another state, without being licensed in Illinois, could be considered to be in violation of the Act and Administrative Rules. If the office is in Illinois, it must conform to the laws regarding practice.
If a person is based in Illinois, and offers services out of Illinois, that person must meet Illinois requirements for licensure, regardless of whether the services are for Illinois or not.

The law of Illinois extends to anyone who "offers" services, therefore just the offering of services is a violation unless the person is licensed. A person offering services in Illinois, whether based in Illinois or not, is in violation of Illinois law unless licensed.

A person offering services from a base in Illinois must be licensed under Illinois law as the offering of services, not just the practicing is actionable.

The following is from the SE Act:
(225 ILCS 340/20.5)
(Section scheduled to be repealed on January 1, 2020)
Sec. 20.5. Unlicensed practice; violation; civil penalty.
(a) Any person who practices, offers to practice, attempts to practice, or holds oneself out to practice structural engineering without being licensed under this Act shall, in addition to any other penalty provided by law, pay a civil penalty to the Department in an amount not to exceed $10,000 for each offense as determined by the Department. The civil penalty shall be assessed by the Department after a hearing is held in accordance with the provisions set forth in this Act regarding the provision of a hearing for the discipline of a licensee.
(b) The Department has the authority and power to investigate any and all unlicensed activity.
(c) The civil penalty shall be paid within 60 days after the effective date of the order imposing the civil penalty. The order shall constitute a judgment and may be filed and execution had thereon in the same manner as any judgment from any court of record.
(Source: P.A. 96-610, eff. 8-24-09.)

RE: online engineering for sale

JAE -

Here's a scenario. Let's just assume person A is a licensed engineer in the state of illinois. And, that person A wants to provide engineering services via internet to projects in areas that don't require him/her to be a licensed engineer (in addition to the projects in his home state). Do you see anything wrong with that? I don't.

Now for that scenario what kind of disclaimer would you like to see beyond this one "I am an engineer licensed in Illinois"?

RE: online engineering for sale

Here's another scenario. There is a person B who starts offering Engineering services via Internet and operates from country C where the law of the land let's him run the business. How do you except our state boards will handle that situation? I am not trying to offend anyone here. Just playing a devil's advocate.

RE: online engineering for sale

So the closed shop wants to defend its turf. Any union will try and and pull the same deal. Just because they say it doesn't make it so. When does Illinois cut its T1 cables to the world wide web?

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
strucguy - I think with both your scenarios the state would have to decide A) whether their law was broken and B) whether to pursue the person.

Might be a lot of different variables that they'd have to consider and take each case one at a time.

Greg - I'm not trying to defend the state's laws, just exploring how the current laws get applied to online/internet situations which, In my view, the laws don't define very well.
I think you are partially correct - I'd revise your sentence to read: "just because they say it doesn't mean they have the power, time or money to make it so."
Illinois is going broke last time I looked.

RE: online engineering for sale

Greg...in general, licensed professional engineers are not unionized. It has been tried numerous times, but so far has not taken hold, fortunately.

The Illinois opinion is not unique. It is similar to the approach taken in Florida for such. The key is "offering" the services. If you do so, then you must comply with the state law in which the offer is made. For internet services, that means essentially anywhere.

Like you noted before (realizing of course that your comment was sarcasm, though accurate!), if the internet didn't cross state lines (country borders) then the issue wouldn't exist. Well, it does and it does.

RE: online engineering for sale

JAE -

Here's my take....the state boards can do NOTHING in both the scenarios.

In the first scenario the engineer is very well licensed in state of illinois and has the legal right to offer design services as long as he/she is not breaking laws of illinois or the laws of the jurisdiction his projects may fall under.

In scenario 2....the business is based in country C which is beyond our boards' jurisdiction. They best they can do is to have it blocked by feds. Good luck with that. If only talking a website down is that easy....you won't be seeing all these websites blatantly hosting pirated movies....which by the way is illegal.

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
First scenario - totally agree.

Second scenario - The state would be pretty helpless to do anything to the person out of country. However, if that person has other state licenses the state in question could possibly report them to the other states and those states could take action on their licenses (i.e. suspend the licenses). Also, the local state board could possibly notify cities and other local jurisdictions that the person is not licensed.

RE: online engineering for sale

Why do you think the person would carry any license if he able to deliver his services without one. The point I was trying to make....rather than chasing flies let's fix the system and educate the public about hiring a licensed engineer. And, if possible....let's deviate from the current protectionist licensing practices in 50 different states and have one unified and effective licensing authority. That's just my opinion

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
I think I heard a legal opinion once that one nation-wide license would not be possible without amending the US Constitution. States have the power to regulate their in-state commerce.

RE: online engineering for sale

So let's say I move to Illinois but offer to do structural engineering for projects in Arizona. Can I do this, offer and doing engineering services in the state of Illinois for projects in Arizona? After all the Illinois Act does not say anything about the projects needing to be in Illinois.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

RE: online engineering for sale

Didn't the states agree upon a unified exam? Let them even agree upon a unified licensing requirements. And, let A body like NCEES handle all the paper work for the states. That way our boards can be efficient and effective. And, we engineers don't have to struggle to maintain multiple state licenses. I know multiple engineers who had to take their PE exam again to get licensed in a different state. All because some of the people in the boards lack commonsense.

RE: online engineering for sale

(OP)
woodman88 - per the blue quote I posted above from Illinois:
If a person is based in Illinois, and offers services out of Illinois, that person must meet Illinois requirements for licensure, regardless of whether the services are for Illinois or not.

RE: online engineering for sale

"Anyone offering engineering services in Illinois, whether it be on the internet or based in an office in either Illinois or another state, without being licensed in Illinois, could be considered to be in violation of the Act and Administrative Rules. If the office is in Illinois, it must conform to the laws regarding practice.
If a person is based in Illinois, and offers services out of Illinois, that person must meet Illinois requirements for licensure, regardless of whether the services are for Illinois or not. "

That's the answer. Nowhere does the site offer services outside of California, nor is that implied. Under standard business practices, you are offering product or services from your physical location, not the customer's location, unless that's explicitly called out by contract.

Note the weaselwording, " could be considered to be in violation," which is a less that strict constraint. That means that it has either never been tested, or only inconclusively tested.

TTFN
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RE: online engineering for sale

You guys still haven't defined what "offering engineering services" is.

I have hired other engineers for their professional opinion on certain projects, much like how you give out your opinions and judgement albeit free. Are both considered to be engineering services? What defines this?

RE: online engineering for sale

In the California PE act, we have:
"“Professional engineer,” within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a person engaged in the professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work."

TTFN
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RE: online engineering for sale

JAE
"woodman88 - per the blue quote I posted above from Illinois:
If a person is based in Illinois, and offers services out of Illinois, that person must meet Illinois requirements for licensure, regardless of whether the services are for Illinois or not."

The quote is from the board "pretty strong response" to your question. Is is not from the engineer act that was quoted there.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

RE: online engineering for sale

All's well ... that doesn't break.

"I" would be scared to death of insuring this guy for ANY project in ANY nation or ANY state that used his numbers. As long as the house, sign, or room extension didn't fall down, sure, the guy would likely make money.

But when the house needs $150,000.00 in new work and drywall and replacement walls because the floor sags because the beam sags because the beam was resting on an un-reinforced masonry wall that had cracks and was already sagging ....

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