Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
(OP)
I observed a site yesterday where observable ground movement has started to cause displacement and overturning in deck post footings and adjacent retaining walls. This building complex was built almost 30 years ago, and this recent movement has only occurred in the last two-three weeks. It appears this movement is being caused by an increase in hydrostatic pressure, seemingly due to a significant increase in below-surface water flow. It has been very cold (-20F to 10F) here, so it is highly unlikely that this is a natural spring popping up, or a natural rise in the groundwater level.
My first reaction was a water line leak, but the HOA representative said the Water District came out and tested the water for chlorine and found none. So they conclued it was "not their problem." I vaguely recall a conversation years ago with an individual who stated that a lack of detectable chlorine levels in water does NOT preclude this water coming from a treated water pipe. Anyone know more about this?
An issue similar to this one popped up about five years ago at a single-family house and the water district (another one) tested the water for chlorine, found none and said it wasn't their problem. After months of finger-pointing, it turned out a leaky water main was the culprit, so needless to say I'm hesitant to trust this most recent investigation by the water district.
Discussion and thoughts would be appreciated.
My first reaction was a water line leak, but the HOA representative said the Water District came out and tested the water for chlorine and found none. So they conclued it was "not their problem." I vaguely recall a conversation years ago with an individual who stated that a lack of detectable chlorine levels in water does NOT preclude this water coming from a treated water pipe. Anyone know more about this?
An issue similar to this one popped up about five years ago at a single-family house and the water district (another one) tested the water for chlorine, found none and said it wasn't their problem. After months of finger-pointing, it turned out a leaky water main was the culprit, so needless to say I'm hesitant to trust this most recent investigation by the water district.
Discussion and thoughts would be appreciated.





RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
As far as the cold, is that unusually cold for your area or is it annual? The freeze/thaw would be my guess as the culprit, but if it is normal it wouldn't explain the recent problem.
I wouldn't take the water district's word for it either.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
It does not appear that retaining walls have drains (only 4'-5' in height). Cold freezing weather is the norm here - usually don't see these issues arise until spring runoff (April-June), assuming they are caused by groundwater/springs.
If I got it tested, any ideas what should be tested? I think I need something else besides chlorine. Maybe I recommend the owner go directly to a pipe leak detection company (I've heard good and bad about both the results and costs)?
Because it could be a leak from their water service line (not a main), one idea was to turn the water off to the building and see if the leak at the base of the wall stops.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
I agree with some of the other posts, not sure that I buy that it is a leaking water line causing the problem, could be, just not convinced yet.
Good luck.
Mike Lambert
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
I think we need to verify it's not from a water leak before we start designing for something more substantial.
Thank you for all comments. I will keep you posted.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.
WWW.amlinereast.com
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
I took what could maybe best be described as a quite large steel "breaker bar" (socket holder/handle) I got from the Contractor and put one end of the bar against the exposed valve case while at the same time pressing the smooth convex end of the handle against my earway. When I did so, I could clearly hear leakage, and so could others there with the same sort of miracle tool (that they could hear unseen leakage with as well). Without recollection of all details/protocols used then, I know man-entry in the downstream side of the valve sure 'nuff found a stream of leakage going by the closed valve seat. The rubber valve seat was adjusted for tighter seal, and the Contractor then passed his test at the required high pressure level. I guess the principles by which I was able to hear this leak are similar to your "pipe" suggestion, that took me down this memory lane.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.
WWW.amlinereast.com
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
I wonder if constructing a 4" slit trench about 4-5 feet deep with a trencher, then installing a 4-inch perf pipe and back filling with a gravel might work. Perhaps 3-feet behind the wall along it's length, and find somewhere to daylight the perf pipe either through the wall or around the side.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
If we do not locate the water source in this area, we will probably be forced to get down behind the walls (where we know we will find the water source). The HOA will have to decide if the removal costs (and removal of irreplaceable trees) will be worth the costs. They are also discussing the possibility of not spending this money now and see how much worse the situation gets - certainly not something the design team is recommending, but pretty typical for HOAs.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
What I was thinking of is a trencher, like a 'Ditch Witch'. They come in a variety of sizes from those that you ride on to hand pushed models (have seen rentals for them at Home Depot as well). There is a boom that is lowered with revolving blade like a chainsaw with bits for digging out narrow width trenches, usually for conduit or small piping, maybe 4-5 feet depth max, perhaps 4-inches wide.
That could probably be navigated between the pines to the wall. Then could dig a narrow trench, stuff a 4" perf pipe w/sock at the bottom, and backfill with 3/4 inch minus gravel. Daylight the pipe somewhere out the wall or around the side. (Not sure if the wall has any tie-backs, which would interfere with the trench idea.)
Since you mentioned mature trees in the area, I wonder if roots might not also be a factor, pushing on the wall. Could excavate behind a damaged portion of wall and see if there are any roots. Those ditch witch machines don't do well with roots I don't think.
You can upload pictures to this website I believe. Be good to see what the wall/site conditions look like. Might give others ideas on how to fix.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
I know what you mean by a trencher, but (according to the contractor) they do not work in 4'-5' of frost.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
try searching for Vermeer or rocksaw
http://rocksaw.com/
http://www.trencherq.com/Rock-Trencher.php
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
What part of the world is this in? I wonder if groundwater subjected to a regular freeze/thaw cycle against the back face of the retaining wall over time hasn't adversely affected the integrity.
Any reason you can't wait until the spring thaw to make repairs or even make more observations? Seems that would be a better time if the ground is frozen.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
1. You're right - I should have taken photos on my first visit.
2. Rocky Mountains - Colorado - 9,000 feet. According to the property manager (for the last 5 years) they have not seen any issues with the integrity of the retaining walls, until the last month. Melting/freezing water was also never observed, but is now overtopping the wall and inundating the adjacent concrete sidewalk (interestingly enough, the building crawl space is dry). While this could be a case of fatigue over time, the wall movement seems to be directly related to the recent events.
3. The snow will not normally melt in this area until June. Considering the significant recent movements, it does not seem prudent to wait four months to further investigate. We feel that if we can control the hydrostatic pressure behind the walls now, we may be able to salvage the walls by repairs (in the spring/summer). If we wait, there's a good chance they will have to be completely replaced.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
Are you really skiing right now?
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
Don't have any "big picture" photos - mostly just up-close ones of the walls.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
We dug two test holes yesterday about 50' uphill of the retaining walls - 15' in depth. Found a seam of moisture at about 6'-7' below grade, with soaked granular/sandy/boulder soils beneath that. A few hours after the holes were dug there was 1'-2' of standing water, but seepage from the sides of the trench had significantly decreased.
I took some basic measurements and developed a rough cross-section of the site, and created an assumed "water table" elevation through the site, starting from the water level in the holes down to the adjacent stream. It indicates that at the current water level in the holes, hydrostatic pressure will be induced on the back of retaining walls adjacent to the building. It also indicates that if we can control the water level in the test hole area to 10' below grade that there's a good chance the hydrostatic pressure behind the walls will be eliminated.
Over the next few days, the contractor will install temporary sumps pumps in the holes. These will discharge into a tank to determine how much water is pumped, and the downhill retaining walls will be observed to see if this area appears to dry up. If the results are positive, we are currently discussing the option of installing a french drain in the current hole location (at least 10' deep), with a daylight to surface past the buildings in order to permanently control the groundwater level.
One concern I have is the potential for building settlement if we potentially reduce/change the current hydrostatic pressure beneath the building footings. Comments?
Any thoughts or additional comments would be appreciated.
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.
WWW.amlinereast.com
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
RE: Detecting source of water damage - from water main?
It appears that the pumps are working. The first day the pumps ran they filled a 500 gallon tank overnight. The flows have stabilized and have been pumping a steady flow of 220-240 gallons per day. Prior to the pumping, ice buildup around the lower retaining walls was thawed. Since that time this area has remained dry.
The permanent fix will be to install french drains in the current location of the uphill pumps along with drains a few feet behind the existing retaining walls.