Hard Water Problem
Hard Water Problem
(OP)
I have an evaporative gas cooling system which uses fairly hard water. Inlet gas temperatures are typically around 800F, but can be as high as 1000F. Not surprisingly, the calcification that forms on the water spray nozzles affects the quality of the spray and, therefore, the effectiveness of the cooling. Besides installing a water softening system, someone thought there was a special steel available that inhibited the calcification process. If so, the spray nozzles could possibly be made from this steel. Has anyone heard of such a steel?





RE: Hard Water Problem
Softening is a good suggestion, or RO, or demineralization. Each depends on how much evaporation you expect in the bulk stream.
A special metal that would inhibit crystal formation? Seems unlikely, or everyone would make their exchangers out of it. It is possible that a material might not allow a crystal to attach, but I am unfamiliar with that application.
RE: Hard Water Problem
RE: Hard Water Problem
RE: Hard Water Problem
RE: Hard Water Problem
It would be interesting to know your experience.
RE: Hard Water Problem
"Any fluid flowing through the MHD unit is exposed to dense magnetic fields provided by permanent high-strength magnets within the unit. These intense fields are responsible for a physical/mechanical disturbance of the molecular structure of the particles within the fluid. These affected particles now possess an elevated surface charge which is distributed down-line from the unit to existing scale and other suspended scaling particles. As these charged particles come into contact with deposited scale, the crystalline structure of the deposition is physically altered.Rather than being deposited as mineral scale, aragonite crystals clump together to form soft precipitates which are easily flushed through the system."
Lets start by looking at the critical sentences in this statement.
The second sentence reads that there is an electrical/mechanical????????????? disturbance in particles after passing through the magnet. OK, what the heck does this mean? An if there is, so what. And please dont tell me what every magnet sales person does, the magnets are so strong the break chemical bonds. YIKES.... And about these particles in the water, which ones? the water ones? All information was careful to say particles and not molecules or cations and anions, not that next time you read info on magnets. Now to give this site the benefit of the doubt sinces I am not picking on it, I didnt read to see what particles they were focusing on, but I would assume it to be all particles in the water like the others. And for these particles to become charged, they need electrons, period...
Now lets look at the third sentence: The particles possess an elevated surface charge, and of course this occurs after the fluid travels through the magnet. Now magically there is mass creation occuring because somehow electrons are just created from this disturbance. These electrons just appear, which in itself should be marketed since I know a lot of companies building power plants to get electrons. But that has nothing to do with the hard water, so I will go on.
The fourth sentence is what I call the driving force of the magnets theory. The elevated surface charge of the particle stated in sentence three now becomes an officially charged particle, by the magic electrons I am assuming.
The problem with this quoted material is that magnets cannot create electrons to charge these particles. If the water had electrons, we wouldn't need the magnets, and most electrons in water are either tied up chemically or involved in a corrosion process of some type and not available for to charge particles.
So what gives, I have yet to see one legitimate academic article describing this so call softning process induced by magnets. And by legitimate I mean papers prepared by the top Untited States Engineering Schools. I will be honest that I read one paper that could not determine the effect of magnets on changes of studied water quality, but it did not involve softning.
So, now maybe you can understand my problem with magnets, and maybe you can help me with it...I am always open to hearing new ideas.
BobPE
RE: Hard Water Problem
My indirect experience with magnetic water treatment is from, alas, testimonials about how great they are. Typically, a boiler water system is chemically treated to prevent scale and corrosion, with good results (boiler feedwater deaeration to remove corrosive dissolved oxygen is a separate topic). Then, the operator switches to magnetic treatment and still gets apparent good results, saving operating cost and work of applying treatment chemical ... hence the testimonials. This appears to be from a misunderstanding of the originanlly specified chemical treatment program. The operator's boiler tube corrosion rates may have accelerated, but the operator, particularly the unsophisticated one, like one operating lower pressure boilers, is not likely to notice (5 or so years boiler tube life instead of 30+?). When the operator gets future unexpected boiler feed water contamination of water hardness, scale WILL form. The insurance benefit of the original treatment is no longer there. When the boiler efficiency drops due to scale, or if it gets so bad that chemical cleaning is needed, where are the testomonial makers then? Embarassed! Hiding and not motivated to advise their competitors of its folly.
It seems that there is no funding to disprove magnetic water treatment device efficacy and perhaps that is the problem. ... except at eng-tips.com?
Buyer beware ... perpetual motion machines for sale!
Just an(other) opinion.
Cheers//
RE: Hard Water Problem
The only company whom manufacturing this kind of magnet because they invented it is SKW system Gbbh
we are using this king of magnet in our melitary war ships and destroyers, they prevent any scaling, corrosion and any marine growth
RE: Hard Water Problem
You might want to consider using a demineralizer rather than a water softener.
As to magnets, magnets are junk science and anyone who promotes such is a quack. If you promote magnets in the US, you are a US quack. If you happen to be from Germany, well then you are a German quack. Quack, quack, quack. Check the link before quacking any further.
http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html
End of discussion.
RE: Hard Water Problem
None of the evaluations were able to substantiate the claimed ability of the magnetic treatment technology to control hardness deposition. The technology was subsequently debunked as trash science and discarded.
Dick Kersey
RE: Hard Water Problem
Call GE Betz for details, or email me for details.
RE: Hard Water Problem
It's not the lack of water but the lack of sufficient CO2 that shifts the reaction to the left and precipitates CaCO3.
RE: Hard Water Problem
RE: Hard Water Problem
RE: Hard Water Problem
http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html
BobPE
RE: Hard Water Problem
RE: Hard Water Problem
The scary thing is that magnetic treatment seems to have a life all its own outside of the engineering world. I even find it in our engineering world at times and it makes me very concerned. In the situation you describe, how did the magnetic treatment system get deployed? Was it engineered or just a salesperson approach?
BobPE
RE: Hard Water Problem
RE: Hard Water Problem
A good, quick salesman and a MBA spreadsheeter with no real world experience. The business case rather than chemistry won out. Oops.
cub3bead
RE: Hard Water Problem
Any promotion of magnetic water treatment may require flagging to the administrator for removal from the site.
.. at risk of sounding like one who would "cut Copernicus' head off for 'blasphemy'", this is professional engineering, applied science, not blue-sky. Let the scientists rebute it again and again .. we've got other work to do
RE: Hard Water Problem
I think magnets are worthy of discussion. We, as engineers, need to educate people becuase I see a lot of this junk engineering out there. Nothing frosts me more that to go, mostly to industrial sites, and see an elaborate magnetic treatment system on water supply lines. I don't ask the normal engineering questions, like how is it performing, I ask...who engineered that? Why? I have always gotten back answers that lead to salespeople, and have yet to date got any engineering on any of the installations I observed.
The wanna-be engineering that takes place out there is harming people and I think we need to be a strong voice to offer people engineering opinions to help them ferrit out junk engineering. Having people promote it here allows us to tell the real story, and educate...a win-win for all...
take care....
BobPE
RE: Hard Water Problem
RE: Hard Water Problem
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