My Experience tells me something may be wrong
My Experience tells me something may be wrong
(OP)
While getting ready to attend Christmas Eve church service, I brought up the subject of seating choice with my wife. It was not so that we could see or hear better. We attend a church that is fairly old (by American standards). Usually the Christmas Eve service is the most heavily attended of the year, with standing room only. Every square foot of the church has the potential to be occupied.
I have designed retro fit solutions for similar churchs in the past. In these past projects, severe member deterioration was noted during routine eletrical work, AV work, etc. In many of the these cases, the floor systems and roof systems are very near collapse.
So, my issue is this: I directed my wife to select a location that I felt was least likely to experience a failure. Now, I have no knowledge of any structural issues with the church, just past experience with similarly designed structures. Am I being a cautios father and husband, or am I doing something enethical? Since I have this concern, should I volunteer to examine the structure? If I find something, then what?
I have designed retro fit solutions for similar churchs in the past. In these past projects, severe member deterioration was noted during routine eletrical work, AV work, etc. In many of the these cases, the floor systems and roof systems are very near collapse.
So, my issue is this: I directed my wife to select a location that I felt was least likely to experience a failure. Now, I have no knowledge of any structural issues with the church, just past experience with similarly designed structures. Am I being a cautios father and husband, or am I doing something enethical? Since I have this concern, should I volunteer to examine the structure? If I find something, then what?





RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
Sounds like a potential violation involving the fire marshall at least. What is the maximum occupancy for the room and what was the attendance?
As for the structure, unless you see something very specific relating to life safety, I would not pursue it. Just comparing to similar structures does not make the same circumstance here.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
I would suggest you talk to the Senior Pastor about your concerns, as well as what Mike noted. Offer up your services as a charitable donation, even if it is a preliminary inspection.
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
And the fire-marshall never showed.
Note that ours is a new structure (less than 5 years old) with no basement so all of us were standing a 'solid ground'. Also this being SoCal, the weather was not an issue with those who had to sit or stand outside.
John R. Baker, P.E.
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RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
But, if your observation creates a discomfort, your "sixth sense" - engineering judgement - professional experience - guardian angel - precognitive abilities ARE being alerted to a problem. Treat it as seriously as you would have 100,000 years ago when questioning whether or not your family should go looking for berries in heavy brush - wasn't that the time when you need to begin asking "Are the grizzly bears also eating berries in those bushes?"
Regrettably, if you begin by asking the pastor about your concerns, but ultimately have to bring in the building inspectors and city into the situation, you have burned bridges difficult to repair. He will, after all, remember you were the one who brought the issue up, and he was one who decided not to take action to repair the structure out of fear of needing repairs. He does need to be warned.
But, it is still a moral issue: not of whether or not the structure is dangerous, but of whether you "hide" your concerns in order "not to make waves" ...... But, you've got to look at the worse case - in the next thunderstorm or windstorm, the next snow storm and ice-loaded roof, who will be inside the building when it collapses?
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
While volunteering to do an inspection is certainly admirable, I agree with racookpe1978 that you need to factor in the unintended consequences of your actions.
TTFN
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RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
I've got a PHD is Broscience
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
This does make me wonder, if there are engineers out there that would specifically avoid certain types of airplanes, cars, appliances, etc. out of the same "gut feeling" type of sense. Please note, this is not about have specific facts and covering them up or anything of that nature.
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
Even in cases where poor maintenance is rampant or un-noticed occurs in aircraft, they still generally stay in the air when they're supposed to.
TTFN
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RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
Note on the OP: Unless I see an immediate hazard, I can't really justify action. If I do see an immediate hazard, I call the fire department, and let them summon the inspectors if needed. I checked into a hotel in Las Vegas once, room on the 10th floor of a huge tower. As is my habit, I avoided the elevators and went to jog down the stairs to the casino. I found the stairs packed absolutely full of mattresses, bed parts, nightstands, and other what-not. My call to the LVFD got the building evacuated from the 2nd floor up. What fun!
Best to you,
Goober Dave
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RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
I got a serious case of the giggles when my boss did it once, and had to walk down the entire building's worth of stairs to get back to his room.
I've never managed to get a hotel evacuated though.
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
People also don't like it when I say wow this elevator is now holding a lot more than it should, as a few more people try to get in too. I don't think people want to hear about this stuff.
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com | http://bwstructuralengineer.com | http://bwcivilengineer.com
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
It was a big surprise to me too when the FD did it. The guy who seemed to be in charge looked older than me, he might have been around for the MGM Grand fire.
Best to you,
Goober Dave
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RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
If you have strong concerns bring it up with the pastor or the person who is responsible for the building. You might find out that you're now the parish engineer. (BTW - it's not a bad job; just keep in mind your pay is deferred)
A few years ago, our diocesan bishop thought it prudent to have all churches and parish building inspected. One of our three parish churches is over a timber framed structure build in 1909 and no structural problems; the only deficiency was the kneelers. However, in a neighboring parish, the foundation of their church was completely undermined due to an underground stream. It was immediately closed since it could have collapsed at any moment - you never know.
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
A man went to swim in the ocean. Although he was good swimmer, the tide was a bit a strong that day. Nevertheless, he said, “I have faith, the Lord will protect me.” Shortly, he found himself pulled far from shore and unable to swim back. A row boat came along and someone in the boat said “get in brother before your drown.”
The man replied, “I have faith, the Lord will protect me”. The rowboat left and the man continued to be pulled out to sea. After a while a speed boat came along and someone said “get in brother before your drown.”
The man replied, “I have faith, the Lord will protect me”. The speed boat left and the man continued to drift. Eventually, a Coast Guard helicopter came along and someone said “get in brother before your drown.” The man replied, “I have faith, the Lord will protect me”. The helicopter left and the man drowned.
When he got to the Pearly Gates he was heartbroken. He said, “Lord, I had faith in you why did you let me drown?.”
The Lord replied, “I sent you two boats and a helicopter.”
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
Never found myself at all close to God in a church, though.
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
Fortunately, where I worship we do not see the issue faced by the OP for two specific reasons: First, the structure is only 20 years old so the design is not outdated, and second the town's assistant fire marshal teaches my Sunday School class. He does not hestitate to remind the leaders of the code limits or to immediately force compliance if someone is outside the bounds. He does so gently and humbly, but with no tolerance for non-compliance. It works well for us.
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
While preparing he asked his trainer "would it help to pray"
The trainer replied "only if you can fight".
Of course one must wonder why someone might think an all powerful, kind, peace loving and benevolent god would intervene in something so violent and crass as a prize fight. Of course one really wonders why this same god would intervene in a war other than to strike down ALL those responsible.
Regards
Pat
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RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong
If the church you think is going to fall apart, and there is a God, then there is probably a bunch of angels holding the floor up till some engineer guy like you goes investigate that maybe it needs fixing. I think that small voice was God telling you do your part, because the angels only show up so many times on Christmas eve to hold up the floor up before it collaspes, since God told that engineer guy to go get it inspected. The question really is will you listen to that small voice?
RE: My Experience tells me something may be wrong