I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
(OP)
Just like the title says. I'm a structural engineer who works for a medium sized construction company who specializes in industrial projects. These projects usually involve some form of structural concrete, which is typically limited to foundations. (Once in a great while I'll have to deal with something a little more specialized in terms of concrete, but it's rare.) Here's the problem - they never test concrete, unless it's required in the project specifications. (This is also rare since the customers that we deal with normally are not typically "heavy" in terms of specifications.....they are usually looking to us to provide them an adequate product with minimal specifications or requirements.) Basically, when I call out a concrete strength on the design drawings, they call up the local concrete plant, request a mix that meets this strength requirement, and never verify that they're actually getting what they paid for. There are a few reasons why this is done:
1) Concrete testing requires additional cost
2) They think that by simply placing an order for a certain concrete strength is the end of their liability. They think that the batch plant is then responsible for taking it from there.
I've preached about things like "negligence" and "design professional", but it's a hard sell. Aside from citing code requirements (ACI, IBC), how would you approach this? (Citing code requirements isn't usually very convincing to people who don't pay attention to codes.) I'm trying to change the quality control mindset of an entire company, which is a daunting task.
Any help would be appreciated! (NOTE - I also posted this in the concrete testing forum)
1) Concrete testing requires additional cost
2) They think that by simply placing an order for a certain concrete strength is the end of their liability. They think that the batch plant is then responsible for taking it from there.
I've preached about things like "negligence" and "design professional", but it's a hard sell. Aside from citing code requirements (ACI, IBC), how would you approach this? (Citing code requirements isn't usually very convincing to people who don't pay attention to codes.) I'm trying to change the quality control mindset of an entire company, which is a daunting task.
Any help would be appreciated! (NOTE - I also posted this in the concrete testing forum)






RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
Yes, I would certainly like to know personally. Maybe you could convince them to test 1 out of 10 jobs just so you had a record of some QA and could show some kind of due diligence if there was ever a problem.
PE, SE
Eastern United States
"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
If they don't do it then at that point it is up to you to determine in your mind whether there is a public safety issue. If there is, then it is your obligation (under engineering ethics guidelines) to report this to higher authorities.
Having said that, it may be that even at f'c = 2500 psi for footings, there might not be a public safety issue.
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
What kind of margins do you operate in, that concrete testing makes a difference? Doesn't every company have a risk management department that slaps the hands of people who cut corners?
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.
WWW.amlinereast.com
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
Another point is that you must consider specifying concrete acceptance by other than strength alone. As shobroco noted, rarely will the strength be an issue for the ready-mix supplier...durability is a different matter. Specify the concrete to achieve both strength and durability for the application and then test it at reasonable intervals.
...and yes, it is a standard of care issue for which the design engineer bears responsibility.
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
With that said, I would take the approach the owner need to have the testing done. They will ultimatley pay for it, either as a pass through, increased bid price, or directly to the testing agency. The fee associated with testing cylinders is exteremely minor.
Of a greater concern, I would assume if they are not testing concrete then they are not testing the soils that support it. In my experience soils are where the greatest liabilty lies in this case.
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
And I wholeheartedly agree with Ohio Matt - the soil is where the problems begin
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
It's very common for our guys to order higher strength concrete than what is specified. That adds a little insurance.
It's rare that I ever stamp drawings......it isn't something that most of our customers require. Good for me, but I don't understand why the customers wouldn't care about something like that. (I understand that this doesn't relieve me of design responsibility though.)
JedClampett - that's exactly what I've tried to convey (depositions & trials). You're preaching to the choir. The problem is that until something like that happens, I'm simply an alarmist.
hawkaz - I rarely deal with anything other than basic foundations. We don't get into much specialized concrete unless it's a retaining wall or reclaim tunnel.
OHIOMatt - that's the angle I've attempted to take in the past by including specific notes on the design drawings and just raising awareness to all parties. We deal with alot of customers that don't provide any sort of project specifications. Once everyone is aware of the recommendations, I leave the final decision to management.
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......
Dik
RE: I work for a design/build construction company who never tests concrete......