cranking a diesel engine by hand
cranking a diesel engine by hand
(OP)
Is it possible to star a heavy diesel engine by hand say a 2.5 DI
I knows in days gone by before the starter motor they used to start petrol engines by attaching a hand crank to the cam shaft
Someone told me that with a diesel you will not get the engine to go fast enough; is this true or not?
If it can be done where can I buy a hand crank from (the crank would have to have a centralfugal clutch inside it so as when the engine spins and runs the end with your hand on dose not spin as fast?
And where would you attach this tool to?
Thanks
batista230
I knows in days gone by before the starter motor they used to start petrol engines by attaching a hand crank to the cam shaft
Someone told me that with a diesel you will not get the engine to go fast enough; is this true or not?
If it can be done where can I buy a hand crank from (the crank would have to have a centralfugal clutch inside it so as when the engine spins and runs the end with your hand on dose not spin as fast?
And where would you attach this tool to?
Thanks
batista230





RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
In the past it may have been possible using decompression valves, but a modern automotive engine is unlikely to be fitted with them.
Typically starter handles fitted into a crude ratchet on the crank nose, which may pose difficulties in the case of a FWD car.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
WRT to hand-starting a 2.5DI, I'd bet that you could restart one that was already warmed up, at considerable risk to limb if not life.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
Some boat motors have de-compresssors and the proceedure is/was to get the thing turning over as fast as possible on the hand crank, then trip the de-compressor off. If you were lucky it woulf fire off, if you were not it would slowly chuff to a standstill, and you would then start the whole proceedure again, until it fired off or you were exhausted.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
Use a hand cranked aircraft engine inertial starter... I have one that found its way into my family junk "treasure" pile decades ago.. a Bendix Eclipse Series 6 hand crank inertial starter. The torque limiting clutch on it is set to 550 ft lbs and capable of starting aircraft engines up to 2500 cu inches per the Bendix Spec... able to store a considerable amount of human sourced energy in a small package... the whole unit is about 8 - 9" in diameter and about 8 inches long..
They were built in hand cranked and combination hand crank, equipped with a small electric motor and using a fairly small battery, to spin the flywheel up to 10-11,000 rpm. The flywheel stores enough energy which is transmitted through a 100:1 ratio stacked planetary gear set to turn the engine over...
Hand Cranked Inertia Starters
http://www.pilotfriend.com/aero_engines/aero_eng_i...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkPFRpbSU9o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=3zXkVQnVmu...
Electric motor version to spin flywheel up to speed...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrrTtbA8Ujs&fea...
This is 1925 era technology (when they were first designed and built) and the Wright R975 and Pratt & Whitney Wasp Jr R985 radial engines were probably the first major large scale use of these starters...
Old technology has a way of coming back.. FIA 24 Hour Endurance racing has sanctioned use of Hybrid energy storage systems, Porsche (and I think Audi) with KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) (flywheels), Toyota using electric motors and super capacitors..
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
That being said, it needs more speed and heat to get an ignition event than a gasser which will at least backfire for you at low revs. If the compression event is not fast enough, you will not stay far enough ahead of heat transfer and leakage to get a compression ignition. A reluctant diesel start can seem like forever when the battery is doing the work, forget a person. One winter, 08-09 the glow system was bad and I idled it at work until the air temp was >15F.
It roll starts well enough, I'd estimate 3-5 guys and/or a sufficient incline if not warmed up.
Now that I think about it, I would start it with a bicycle on a dare.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
That brings back memories. My dad was an electrical engineer. In the late 40's and early 50's in the UK., not all of the farms were electrified, so the farmers used Gen sets. These were usually Lister or Petter, with the majority being those Lister single cylinder twin flywheel diesels. So I would get to crank while my dad manned the de- compression lever. It was amazing the number of times we turned out at 4-00 am to " I can't get my generator to go, and i've got to get the cows milked", to find out that the farmer had simply let the unit run out of fuel, and had then not bled it properly. Then when he could not get a start, had called the " experts".
Mind you when you got it sorted, there was nothing more satifying than that first thud followed by a cloud of black smoke then the Thump -----Thump -----Thump---Thump --Thump _thump-thump thump of that engine building speed against those fywheels.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
The feature of cranking spark ignition is that you MUST retard the spark to ATDC it avoid a broken arm and the possibility of the engine running backwards.
Another feature of crank starting is as pulling up to TDC, if the compression makes the load to high, you simply hold against the compression for a second or two while some pressure bleeds off past the ring gaps or wherever, then flick it over TDC.
While I am sure that a diesel injection timing can be retarded,I would think that the extra complexity of that along with the extra compression and the requirement that the heat and compression be retained long enough to fire the charge would strongly mittigate against cranking a diesel.
Regards
Pat
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RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
Still, if it didn't start the first 2 times of trying, I would be knackered and probably wouldn't get it going for a while.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
How did you ensure it did not fire before TDC
Regards
Pat
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RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
- Steve
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
I don't think ignition BTDC is a problem w/ diesels when starting.
1. The fuel charge is introduced over a fairly long interval. On mercedes 61x diesels, I think the fuel injection occurs from 23* BTDC to 15 after. So the 'bang' at autoignition temp is not a big one, unless ether or WD40 is misted in.
2. The early ignitions seem partial anyways. The bump you hear and feel from the partials is distinctively different than the first 'clack!' that throws it over and gets you going. The 61x prechamber includes the glow plug, and also a metal ball suspended in the path of the injector jet. The glow plug and the ball I think respectively give and sustain heat in the chamber that promotes a pilot ignition event.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
My choice in a pinch. Needs a bit more speed than a gasser tho.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
I learned to kick start old British singles in my youth - it's all technique. I was thinking of putting a Lister single into one of my BSA's, but there is no way you could start one with a kickstarter. A motorcycle kickstarter is geared down, the Lister is geared up with the crank handle on the camshaft.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
I think the Lister was in the 2 to 2.5 litre capacity range. But it had a decompressor and (I suspect) a very heavy flywheel - so you could really build up quite a lot of momentum before disengaging the decompressor.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
John
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
"Schiefgehen will, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
Youtube is full of examples......
EMD Engines.. air starter motors....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFVJ9Lhhm0I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvdocH6jP_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aanSnb6FrjU&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-VlTKL7U6A&fea...
EMD also uses battery powered, twin electric starter motors on locomotives
compressed air, cylinder injected via timing distributor...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZr2umGKQXg&fea...
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
True story!
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RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
Actually from a purely practical point of view in the days before welfare, it kinda makes sense. OK ladies you can stone me to death now.
Regards
Pat
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RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHtz4HDRYg
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
you develop lots of muscles hand cranking those old 6:1 compression model T fords etc.
gotta be arnold swartzenegger to hand bomb an automotive diesel.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
Second method is the one used by old listers in emergency life rafts. Air starters. They all ran air starters with accumulator tanks. The passengers would operate a foot pump to pressurize the accumulator. Once pressurized, hit a switch and poof, the thing started.
Finally. If you've ever watched the discovery channel shows, the miners along the amazon where they pan for gold. They carry around a 5L international tractor motor. When they need to start it, they've taken a steel wheel, welded it to the crank hub. Put a pull cord wrapped around it. Now with it about 6' high on a bank. 3 of them jump off the bank holding onto the rope and pull start it. I called BS as well but hell it works.
Moral of the story. Don't over think it.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
We've bump-started them in warmer weather as someone mentioned above, because of a weak battery, by having someone push and then dropping the clutch in 2nd gear. You need to get the car going at 15 km/h or so in order to do this successfully ... and that's a chore for the person pushing in itself, unless you have a little downhill to help out.
Hand crank alone? No way.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
Regards
Pat
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for site rules
RE: cranking a diesel engine by hand
Other hand cranked starting aids include the Simms Spring Starter, see British patent GB1107521 filed in 1963, now manufactured by: http://springstarter.com/default.asp and http://www.ipustarting.co.uk/en/products/spring-st... and http://www.startwell.com/
Alternatively, there is the Simms Inertia Starter, and also the Bryce Handraulic Starter, now made by Prestolite: http://news.prestolite.com/drupaldocs/Handraulic%2... They are all excellent choices if electric starting is unavailable or unreliable.
PJGD