Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
(OP)
I work of a small manufacturer of medical equipment such as power wheelchairs and hospital beds. This is my first position out of school (I graduated with a BSME in 2006). When I started I was offered a low wage ($18 hour) and told if everything worked out that would go up soon (this was told to me by my current supervisor, not the owner of the company, who has no authority to give me a raise). Six years later, Im being paid the same wage as when I started. Which, adjusting for inflation may be the equivalent of nearly a 9% pay cut. Im now going on 30 and living with my parents because my alternative is living alone in a crappy apartment paycheck to paycheck (yes, Ive ran the numbers for living in a cheap for the area 1 bedroom apartment and I would be lucky to save even $100 in a month and would probably be spending more than I make most months). As nice as it would be to simply ask for a raise, the owner of the company has historically given the impression (whether or true or not) that the company is just getting by. From talking to co-workers, it sounds like no one ever gets raises. The only story I have been told of an employee getting a raise (many many years ago), the employee ended up having to take the owner to court to actually get the money. Lastly, I am convinced, that the owner most likely believes he pays me and everyone else too much as opposed to too little. I have maintained a low level job search for the past year or so and other than a few interviews, there has not been much activity. I rarely see job postings for machine design or product design engineers.
In regards to my position, I pretty well do all of the new product design and development. I manage the projects (which is, in all fairness, mostly self-managment), design the new products, make all of the drawings for the components. Work with vendors to make the parts, lead design review meetings, create product manuals, train the production staff on how to assemble the new products, etc. The company I work for all makes a point to do custom one off products for patients with special needs, my supervisor handles most of these projects but I take on some of them as well. Currently, my most significant project is designing a new hospital bed that meets the latest standards. One of our vendors recently told me that every other hospital bed manufacturer has at least 3-5 engineers on a bed project; I am the only engineer working on this project. Im not saying that I believe I do the work of the 3-5 other engineers, its more probable that I am cutting corners if anything.
Anyway, what I dont know is if my story is more normal and just a reflection of a bad economy or if I am particularly hard up relative to others who graduated with engineering degrees in the past 5 or so years. Although, I believe a job is still better than no job, its hard for me to not feel exploited by this company given that they pay me at least $20k a year less than anyone else I know who has an engineering degree and is currently employed as an engineer. That all said, does anyone have an idea what a reasonable salary for the work I do would be? My work is relatively light on engineering calculations of any kind, but heavy on design creativity and solving difficult packaging problems (i.e. how to fit lots of features in small spaces that work for very very heavy people). I typically feel like I can do everything I need to do in 8 hours a day (or sometimes, much less). That is my main question for now. I will continue to crank out the best new products I can come up with for now, keep my eyes open for new oppurtunities, and also keep pursuing a graduate certificate and possibly masters degree (1 class at a time...paid out of pocket, of course). I would also appreciate any constructive advice for how to escape a dead end job and move forward. Particularly for someone who is not well connected and does not come from a family of college educated professionals.
In regards to my position, I pretty well do all of the new product design and development. I manage the projects (which is, in all fairness, mostly self-managment), design the new products, make all of the drawings for the components. Work with vendors to make the parts, lead design review meetings, create product manuals, train the production staff on how to assemble the new products, etc. The company I work for all makes a point to do custom one off products for patients with special needs, my supervisor handles most of these projects but I take on some of them as well. Currently, my most significant project is designing a new hospital bed that meets the latest standards. One of our vendors recently told me that every other hospital bed manufacturer has at least 3-5 engineers on a bed project; I am the only engineer working on this project. Im not saying that I believe I do the work of the 3-5 other engineers, its more probable that I am cutting corners if anything.
Anyway, what I dont know is if my story is more normal and just a reflection of a bad economy or if I am particularly hard up relative to others who graduated with engineering degrees in the past 5 or so years. Although, I believe a job is still better than no job, its hard for me to not feel exploited by this company given that they pay me at least $20k a year less than anyone else I know who has an engineering degree and is currently employed as an engineer. That all said, does anyone have an idea what a reasonable salary for the work I do would be? My work is relatively light on engineering calculations of any kind, but heavy on design creativity and solving difficult packaging problems (i.e. how to fit lots of features in small spaces that work for very very heavy people). I typically feel like I can do everything I need to do in 8 hours a day (or sometimes, much less). That is my main question for now. I will continue to crank out the best new products I can come up with for now, keep my eyes open for new oppurtunities, and also keep pursuing a graduate certificate and possibly masters degree (1 class at a time...paid out of pocket, of course). I would also appreciate any constructive advice for how to escape a dead end job and move forward. Particularly for someone who is not well connected and does not come from a family of college educated professionals.





RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
To answer your final question find someone who is prepared to pay you more to do what you do, start your own company or move into a different field or choose another career. If none of those offer more money then no you are not underpaid.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
Obviously, it'll depend on what part of the country you live in, and whether you're willing to transplant, but a new employer seems to be the most reasonable approach. If nothing else, your company now has the expectation that you'll suck up whatever they dish out, whether by malice or not.
TTFN
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RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
To be honnest, I think you should start looking for a new job if you don't get a decent raise.
Good luck
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
The only way you're going to make more money is to find a new job (easier said that done unfortunately).
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
People working in mechanisms tend to make less that people working in fluids/thermo or HVAC, and people working in the medical field tend to make the least of the people working in mechanisms, but damn it you should be above median income ($50k at the end of last year, lowest since 1995).
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
You can try having a sit-down with your employer. I don't think it is likely to result in you achieving a decent wage.
Your best bet is to find a good-paying job somewhere else. (IMO, of course)
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
After years of thinking about it, I have come to the conclusion that the companies I worked for were just not profitable. We bill out all of our time so have a rough idea on how much my company makes. As a company, we just didn’t charge that high of a rate per hour. Similarly, as an employee we didn’t charge that high of a rate to work for them. Maybe it’s a chicken and the egg scenario.
Think about how profitable your company is and how profitable you are for them. For example, I bill out at $60 per hour. It doesn’t matter whether I am the best employee in the world or the worst, the most I money I can make the company is $60 per hour times 40 hours per week times 52 weeks a year = $124,800 (excluding overtime for simplicity). Now think about a money manager on Wall Street. If they manage a 50 million dollar portfolio and their company gets a 1.5% management fee, they made their company $750,000.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Mechanical-Engi...
TTFN
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RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
You are exactly right. The OP started at a low rate ($18/hr) and apparently does not understand that he should be viewed as a professional. If engineers accept such, it demeans the profession and allows employers to continue this bullsh!t.
To the OP....you are a professional. You have a degree as an engineer. It is an honorable profession that deserves the respect of the public and employers. You didn't major in basketweaving. You didn't pour your heart and soul into achieving a degree that doesn't mean something. It does. Treat yourself as a professional and project that to employers and potential employers.
Diligent, intelligent and self-motivated people who project confidence will excell in jobs without regard to degrees or other qualifications.
Get another job...this time project your profession for what it is. You are not simply an hourly worker. You are a degreed, mechanical engineer with 6 years of design experience. Go sell that....it is sellable.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
I graduated in 2005 and made more than that right out of school in a very low paying area of the country and now make 95-105k a year depending on bonuses. Heck in my industry in you have a pulse and a degree you make 70k (Oil and Gas).
Now I will say one thing and it may not relate to you but I will point it out anyway. In my office all engineers get offices no matter how young they are. But we have one engineer than has been here longer than me (5 years) that is still in a cubical. He is very timid and shy. He does not present himself confidently and therefore is treated less than fairly. He is kept here because there is no reason to get rid of him but I am sure he is compensated way below his peers. In the end he is probably a better technical engineer than me. But I have risen in the company by learning how our systems work and volunteering to be the man that goes between engineering and corporate IT. If we had layoffs a lot of better engineers than me would be let go before I was because I have that one task that no one else has been trained in.
So the moral of my story is, get aggressive in a job search. Get into a new environment and find a niche that the other engineers do not want to do. Latch onto it and make some money. In the end that is what working is about, earning the maximum amount you can for your qualification while being able to live with the work you do.
SW 2007 SP 5.0
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
I own a company and we hit the proverbial wall in year end 08, 09 saw a 50% drop in turnover and even more in profits and coupled with a couple of contracts we were doing for companies that went into administration very nearly saw us go under as well.
Things have improved but we have still not reached the turn over or profit margins we did back in 08, despite having to make cuts, lay people off, a pay freeze and no dividends for me personally. How people expect to be able to be given pay raises at or above inflation whilst operating under these conditions is beyond me.
The one thing that is very obvious to me is there are very much two types of company now, those that compete in a global market and those that don’t.
Looking back to 08 a 24” monitor cost around £380 you can now get them for about £120 and whilst this is an extreme example the same pretty much applies to most manufactured products.
On the flip side things like insurance, rates and utilities have all risen at about 6-8% per year. Basically they are not operating in a global market. I can go down the local supermarket and buy a, admittedly cheap and nasty, microwave for less money that it costs to park my car at the railway station for 2 hours, which simply cannot be right IMO.
It really doesn’t surprise me in the example given above that a gas fitter or plumber can make more money than a qualified engineer, I am not saying it is right, but again they are not competing in a global market.
The amount of money paid these days seems far more sector driven than qualification driven, again global or local market. If you want the big money change sectors, easier said than done admittedly, or else the same rule applies, everything is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
I agree with you that times are hard and have been for the past few years, especially in manufacturing, so big raises aren't on the cards for most companies. I think you're wrong in this case because six years ago things weren't so tough and the salary on offer then was little better than that expected for casual work. He was underpaid then and he's underpaid now. If the OP was on a reasonable salary then I agree that now is not the time to demand a raise, but he isn't on a reasonable salary for the work he appears to be doing and the experience he appears to have.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
I thought you were being exploited by a clueless company owner until I read your whine about two professors that only gave out C's and D's. I had those guys, got A's from both of them.
Re-reading all of your posts, I have to say that you act like you are happiest while being victimized. You really should stay exactly where you are at. You'll be happier in your mothers basement than you'll ever be if you move out of your home town and face the cold cruel world on your own.
I've changed industries three times. There are a large number of people on eng-tips.com who changed countries while changing industries and many of them went to countries where people worked in a language different from their native language. Going from AutoCAD to SolidWorks is a walk in the park compared to that.
"Overqualified" is code for "your skills have nothing to do with the job I need done and I don't want to pay to train you". Don't let it go to your head.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
I had a student who worked as my research assistant for two years doing finite element analysis of forged steel parts. When he graduated, he listed me as a reference on his resume. I received a call from a potential employer with whom he had interviewed that made soft drink fountain nozzles. The hiring manager said "Joe seems to have a lot of experience doing FEA for steel forgings, why should we consider him for these plastic pieces for soft drink fountains?" I told him that Joe doesn't have a lot of experience with FEA for steel forgings, he has a lot of experience SOLVING PROBLEMS. FEA for steel forgings was a problem I put in front of him, and he excelled with it. I have no doubts that he would excel in this position as well. Joe was hired for the job and did very well for the company.
Sorry for the long-winded response. The point is, Pace82, you need to sell your skills and anything less than that is selling yourself short. Problem solving, safe product design, electro-mechanical interface, and ergonomics are all skills that you have. If you want 3D experience, you can use some free software out there similar to sketchup. Best of luck to you.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
HOWEVER, that said, do not fudge; if you've only been in the same cubicle as someone using MegaUberCAD, don't claim that you're "familiar" with it. You must have hands on experience before claiming having hands on experience. This is an easy gotcha that happens ALL THE TIME to people I've interviewed:
> "I see that you're familiar with XYZsoft; what did you use it for?" "Uh, actually I only watched someone use it" BZZZZZ
TTFN
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RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
I did see a few posts accusing me of whining, and generally suggesting that whining means I am getting what I deserve. In regards, to that...yes, I am whining. I am sharing my frustrations here (i.e. whining), my experience with this job, and job searching, has left me with some disillusionment that may not reflect reality. I only know a few other ME's and was wanting to get an idea how exactly my situation compared to others experience with their career. I did know it was bad, but did not for sure if is laughably worse or just a bit worse than some others. Granted this is far from a representative sample of all engineers (particularly ME's). On the upside, as terrible as the compensation is, I actually like what I do. I do like designing parts and machines, and solving the types of problems that work presents. My biggest complaint with work is that I wish it were actually more technically challanging. Part of, and probably a smaller part, of the issue I have is knowing another job is most likely not going to involve any design work, and if it does, probably not to the extent I get to do now.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
The company I work for has won a contract recently with a supplier of medical equipment. One that could double sales or better, if Im still around Ill finally find out for sure whether the company just does not have the revenue to pay employees appropriately or if the owners simply pay themselves first. My experience so far has me betting on the latter.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
Jump ship, the company is top heavy (they wouldn't be open for six years if they weren't making any money). You didn't get into engineering to make a few business majors rich, and I don't believe that this degree dictates maintaining your "honor" and "Dedication" to an abusive company that pays you less than a manager at a fast food Restoration and would drop you in a heart beat.
It's a capitalist economy, look hard enough and you'll find someone willing to pay. Get selfish, everyone else is.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
I had my resume polished by someone a few years ago and they took out some wording that was exactly why I got an interview for my current position.
Likewise on the recruiting end I've seen my colleagues dislike a candidates resume that I thought was fairly good and vice versa.
This is beyond the idea of tailoring your resume to each job, it's the fundamental fact that folks are all different. There may be some trends etc. but they aren't necessarily universal. Plus technical resumes can look a bit different from other fields.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
I agree that there is no "one size fits all" resume. However, in my experience of interviewing and being interviewed, there is one factor that seems to be constant. Do not, under any circumstances, use any of the default templates for your word processing software (notably Microsoft Word). That is a sure fire way to have your resume blend it with all of the others.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
You are not the only one in that position. I've been working at my current position out of school for 6 years now and now looking to find another employer. I got a 10% raise the past year, however; comparing with the salary review in my field I'm still below starting salary of new graduates (~25$/hr). Waiting for my professional licence to come in and I will be moving on out. The place I work at is with great people and it is just too bad that they still consider my position a junior desginer. I'm working on upgrading my skill set and resume. Time to get out of your comfort zone and show what you are worth.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
Thanks for sharing that. I am not happy that you are also underpaid and sounds like under-titled as well. It is at least nice to know Im not the only one. A very good friend of mine working in another field told me recently what his salary is. He has an accounting degree and an MBA and has been working just under the CFO for a smaller company (I believe he is now pretty much the CFO). They are not paying him much more than the company I work for is paying me. Both of us are at a fraction of the 'average' rate for our positions, which depending on how you define them the average ranges from 60k-85k. That all said, I did get an interview today. I believe it went pretty well, so we'll see how things go. Ironically, its an entry level position that pays substantially better than my current one. Though still not quite where I want to be. Once you start interviewing, if you like a position will you take it even if it is only getting you to the average pay rate?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
I would make sure if the move is a right fit for you and not just looking at the compensation. An HR guy told me this a while back ago, the two things a new boss was looking for, whether you will be able to cope with him and whether he can cope with you. So far, I had two bosses that came and went and they were quite reasonable to work with. Best of luck and hope things work out well for you.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
To your situation Pace82: if it is true that you are an independent problem-solver with solid work experience, you show up every day and are dependable, then I would say your skillset is worth much more than $18/hr. You haven't specified what (if any) extra benefits you receive (profit sharing, 401(k) w/match, health insurance with premiums paid for by the employer, etc), but even if you receive all of these, you are still worth a larger salary. If you truly are not satisfied with your current compensation package, you must do something about it. Asking for a raise or finding another job are not your only options.
-TJ Orlowski
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
Incidentally a 15 year old McHappyMeal dealer gets $15.50 per hour in Australia.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
*Well, tangled set of corporations - one of which went bankrupt recently and dumped a lot of debt in the process.
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
Why are you still there?
RE: Poorly paid, exploited, or typical?
Two other options: Organize a labor union with the other employees, petition an existing labor union to come in and negotiate with the employer on their behalf.
Employers are in no way, shape, or form market-makers; nor do they have the "vast majority of the balance of power." If my total value to the company can be replaced at the same or lower price, I am not underpaid. If my total value to the company cannot be replaced by my employer unless he pays a much higher price, I am underpaid.
"But an employer doesn't have to honor a request for a pay increase even if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the employee is measurably underpaid." Doesn't give the employer any additional power, just perceived additional power in the moment. If a person willingly gives the employer additional power in the form of fear (fear of not finding another job, fear of not liking the new job if he does find one, fear of strking out on his own and failing, etc etc), that's not the employers problem. Nor does it make the employer a market-maker.
-TJ Orlowski