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Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it
4

Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

(OP)
This is a question that has plagued me for years and I've been on both sides of the fence with it. I originally started out as an Industrial drafter (AS Degreee) and worked as a drafter/designer. Then I went back to school and got a BS in Mechanical Engineering.

My question is: When a drawing is produced by a certified drafter and then it goes to an Engineer who checks the drawing. If the drawing has mistakes and it makes its way to production and leads to an accident, who will be responsible? The drafter or the engineer?

I feel as if the mistake was on the drafting portion (as in an incorrectly applied dimension/tolerance/GDT.etc) than it is the drafters fault. After all, very little is taught on ANSI drafting standards in Mechanical Engineering School so how can we expect the engineers to catch this?

However, if it is a mistake in the engineering/design of the part but the drawing was correct than it is the engineers fault.

Does anyone have any official answers or cases they can reference? Up to now, all I've ever heard was opinion on this topic... But if the Sh*t ever hits the fan, how will it really play out in the legal system? Who is responsible?

I've had engineers who felt they were responsible for the whole drawing & everything on it once they sign it; and as a result they would sometimes spend HOURS checking it (sometimes longer than I had spent making the drawing!). I would understand this notion if it were actually true that the engineer is totally responsible after checking & signing it... But this seems illogical... I've seen some engineers (who were not trained in drafting as I am) make some pretty pathetic drawings... So how can they be expected to be responsible for the drafting portion of which they know little about?

Feel free to give your opinion. I'm hoping someone who has "been there done that" or a lawyer will post some facts and put this question to rest once and for all.
Thanks,

VS

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

What context?

If in the world of PE's (in the US) where the engineer actually has to stamp the drawing etc. then I believe the legal buck falls to the PE.

In the exempt world then as I understand it the company is primarily legally liable.

Who the company blames is up to them.

The typical saying is the last person to sign it takes the blame or similar but that's a bit harsh!

As for "After all, very little is taught on ANSI drafting standards in Mechanical Engineering School so how can we expect the engineers to catch this" well frankly if your job duties require it then you need to learn it, or find another job. Plus, if you're so good at drafting surely you know they're ASME standards now in the USwinky smile.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Whomever has the insurance policy with the highest liability payment.

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

I personally have never worked with a "certified drafter".
Every company I have worked at, whoever signs the drawing is responsible for its content.
The "drafter" usually makes the drawing based in info supplied by the designer and/or engineer.

Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Quote:

My question is: When a drawing is produced by a certified drafter and then it goes to an Engineer who checks the drawing. If the drawing has mistakes and it makes its way to production and leads to an accident, who will be responsible? The drafter or the engineer?

I would think that first of all it is a responsibility of a company that prepared poor documentation and/or poor product based on the documentation (even if the print was perfectly according to all standards required), and not of a single man in particular - assuming that the single man is not a drafter, PE, drawing checker, manufacturing engineer, quality engineer, inspector etc. in one.

In my previous job there were at least 4 signatures required on a print: drafter's, PE's, tooling engineer's and so-called standard checker's. All of the signatures were equally important, because involvement and expertise of all the persons were absolutely required in the process of releasing a part for production. So each of them were partially responsible for the print, but in case of any product issues in front of customer everything was company's fault. (Of course internally the company could blame all of people signed on the print or none of them. All depended on the situation).

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

I’ve never been in trouble so big, it required a certified scapegoat.
But the way I see it, both engineer and drafter are merely hired help. They are “following orders” (read with German accent).
Another reason company shouldn’t point the finger at the employees is that, should the case go to court, you really don’t want your drafter who has nothing to lose to testify under oath about inner workings of your joint.
Cynical? Well, I am old and tired.

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

I've had bosses who specifically did not want engineers to get their PE so they could not testify as an "expert witness". For what ever reason, in the US, a degree in Engineering does not make you an engineer in the eyes of the court, only a PE license does. So I doubt any draftsperson, no matter how qualified, could be dragged into court over a drawing error. The officers of the company would be the ones charged with negligence (or whatever) even though they probably could not even read the print.

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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

For industrial-exempt enterprises, it is the company/owners who have their collective nads in the liability wringer. Employees do not. It is incumbent on the company to delegate authority to those it has deemed competent and trustworthy.

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

One of the major reasons you should incorporate and buy liability insurance – to create legal entity that will take the heat.

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

vonsteimel,

Like ctopher, I have never heard of a certified drafter. A lot of drafters these days are CAD operators, with minimal expertise in drafting.

In any case, GD&T is a language. If you do not understand the language, you don't understand the drawings, and you have no business signing them off.

I asked this in the Ethics Forum, thread765-194599: Drawing Checker/Approver Qualifications.

--
JHG

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Hi

I feel the responsibilty lies with the checker.
When a drawing is sent for checking it should be checked not only for functionality but that it fits together and therefore the checker should carry out a tolerance stack on the relative components before signing off as okay.
I find this link gives a list of things required for checking drawings:-

http://roymechx.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drawing/Checki...

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

It would seem that the checker can be different than the approver. It is the approver's responsibility, regardless to who checks it.

Matt Lorono, CSWP
Product Definition Specialist, DS SolidWorks Corp
Personal sites:
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

A second pair if educated eyes is invaluable in accuracy of the final engineering product. Many companies now have deleted the seperate checking function, relying on CAD accuracy and expecting the drawing generator to review their own work before filing and submitting it. IF you find a mistake before you cut chips--- no harm--no foul and no serious blame should be assigned. The one who made the mistake will usually feel guilty enough anyway. Manufacturing also has a responsibility to review the product submitted to them, and not just blindly start cutting. I too have never heard of a "certified drafter". Usually the only certified one is a licensed PE.

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Quote (desertfox)


Hi

I feel the responsibilty lies with the checker.

If the checker is a senior person with authority over the designer, and they are given adequate time to completely review every single document in the design package, then they can be held responsible.

I would hold the designer responsible. The checker's job would be to catch enough mistakes to justify the time and effort required to do the design checking.

--
JHG

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Quote (drawoh)

The checker's job would be to catch enough mistakes to justify the time and effort required to do the design checking.

So, the checkers job is to justify his own existence while not being actually responsible for anything?

Checkers…

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Depends a lot on what level of checking is being done etc. The more complete and full the check then the more blame might be shared by the checker.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Engineer that checks it - whether they specifically check it or not. It is the engineer's responsibilty to trust, or not trust the Certified Drafter.

SW Premium 2011
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RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

I don't know any certified draughters, but I do know some who are certifiable. bugeyed

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

CheckerHater,

Let's try to construct a functional engineering and design office.

The designer sits at a CAD station designing something. Possibly, and engineer is looking over the shoulder of a CAD operator, but I don't think this is functional. CAD is user friendly. It is not like back in the days of drafting boards, and people with good line-work and lettering.

When job is complete, the drawings are checked by someone. In many organizations, the checker is juniour, and the company lacks standards, so all the checker is looking at is dimensions and spelling, if he knows what is good for him. We cannot hold him responsible for design errors.

In a saner environment, the checker is an experienced designer with good overall knowledge. The designers and projects managers respect him. Still, there can be a conflict. If this is hard to resolve, I am in favour of the designer taking responsibility, and sending the drawings out without the checked signature. He is putting his ass on the line, obviously.

There has to be some sort of organization underlying the person responsible for decisions. If the design checker is doubling as the coffee boy, he cannot be held responsible for anything, other than spilling coffee.

--
JHG

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Drawoh,

This is why I believe “checker” should be assignment rather than profession.
CAD is easy, you said it yourself.
So, instead of engineer/designer/detailer/checker chain why not to have engineer A assigned to check work of engineer B and vise versa.
In larger groups you can even have setup similar to what pmarc described in his post from 9/20:
Engineer with better knowledge of manufacturing could do feasibility check and engineer with better knowledge of standards could check the compliance, and sign the drawings respectively.
All of them still able to do something productive rather than justify number of red mark-ups.
How’s that for “functional engineering and design office”?

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

All drawings have (or should have) an approval line or box.
That initial, or signature, is responsible for that design interpreted on the drawing.

Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Lots of barking about the meaning of titles. Lots of "should" and "feel".

Titles mean nothing. Names of boxes on prints mean less. In exempt industry, companies are responsible to the public (vendors, bystanders, and customers), end of story.

As far as responsibility within the company, that is determined by the company's policies and procedures and the people charged with carrying them out. A name on a certificate or degree does not change this.

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Hi all,

I'll try to summarize what we are taught about law in our field. In Ontario, Canada it is up to the engineer who signs the drawing to accept responsibilty. He may have others detail but it is his duty to ensure that the drawings are checked. In the unfortunate event where there is a breach of duty, where that duty was owed, and damages are present then it is up to the courts to decide on how much liability ($) both the engineer and the company that employeed the engineer owe the damaged party. If there is more than one to blame than the courts would look at concurrent tortfeasor to share the damages. This would fall under tort law, which I believe is similar to those in the States. But check with your juridiction to be sure.

The textbook where I got this from...
http://www.amazon.ca/Law-Professional-Engineers-Do...

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

But that's for "professional engineers," which is a specific registration under a government for the design of bridges, buildings, etc. I believe the bulk of this thread was dealing with regular ol' engineers, who are employed by a big company (or small, for that matter), and who are not registered PEs.

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems
http://www.gdtseminars.com

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

leeekim,

You are assuming that engineer who signed off on the drawings has continuing control over them. In lots of organizations, someone will demand a change, and supervise a low level drafter as they make the change. The engineer will find out about all this, later.

--
JHG

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

(OP)
Indeed Belanger,
in the mechanical engineering world I live in, PE's are about as common as honest politicians... So to summarize it all, this is what I'm getting; In your typical company, the engineers are protected by the corporation they work for. So when the "fecal matter is on a collision trajectory with the rotary oscillator", it is the company for which the engineer works that will take the fall. And then the company can distribute blame & disciplinary action however they see fit (up to and including termination).

But this does nothing to ease the engineers who want to spend more time checking the drawings than it took the drafters to drawing them -- to the extent that they would rather let someone who is ill qualified do the checking & sign the "check box" than have to check it themselves within a reasonable amount of time & sign the "check box" themselves... Perhaps pride plays a role in this quagmire...
Thanks,

VS

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Who's responsible?

The company with the logo on the lower left of the print.

We have drawings with 6 signatures on 'em - and not one of those six people are with the company anymore.

JK

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

(OP)
Are your intitial JK or are you"Just Kidding"?

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

Actually its James Kurk - just like the Star Trek guy expect my name came first and I use a "u".

glasses

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

"The company with the logo on the lower left of the print."

All companies I have worked at, it's on the lower right.
bigsmile

Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

(OP)
Nobog, Your looking at the backside.... turn the drawing over ;)

RE: Who accepts final responsability for a drawing; the Certified Drafter or the Engineer that checks it

banghead Ooops,

I must have been thinking I was in the lower hemisphere !!!

JK

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