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Why do you like Femap?
5

Why do you like Femap?

Why do you like Femap?

(OP)
Perhaps you like Ansys or hypermesh?

RE: Why do you like Femap?

sorry, but what's the point of this thread ?

asking why you like FeMap is one thing,
asking perhaps you like Ansys/hypermesh (in a FeMap forum) is "odd", IMHO (and IMHO i'm an expert on "odd").

RE: Why do you like Femap?

(OP)
I am looking into buying a different FEA product, and I honestly trust the opinions here more than I would from the opinions from their sales people.

RE: Why do you like Femap?

i agree avoid salespeople. i'd also avoid other people's opinions. i'd get a demonstrator version and try them out and figure out which one works best for you.

RE: Why do you like Femap?

There's usually an option to get a node-limited or time-limited licence. That should give you a feel of the program you are considering.

RE: Why do you like Femap?

I like FEMAP because I love spending weeks getting rid of free edges - one of the great benefits of working with parasolid geometry!

tg

RE: Why do you like Femap?

tg,

We've been working on some improvements to non-manifold geometry for the upcoming FEMAP v11, if you're having Free Edge problems with Parasolid geometry, this might be extremely helpful. If you have some sample geometry, please send it to me and I will use it in testing to try to maximize the effectiveness of working with non-manifold shell geometry in FEMAP v11 and FEMAP v11+

sherman dot mark at siemens dot com

Mark.

RE: Why do you like Femap?

Mark,

The free edge problems are occurring with geometry that we created in FEMAP, very cleanly, as commented by our re-seller.
The model in question has finally been completed (1/2 of 1 passenger railcar) in longer than I care to divulge here.

We truly thought that this was resolved with V10. We would really appreciate a seminar, course, or webcast on FEMAP best practices for stress-skin structures (in our case trains). i.e. When should we NOT use Geometry Midsurface Intersect, what really happens when using this and\or Non-manifold Add, and how to come back to cleaner geometry after using these commands, if they do not remove all the free-edges.

Why are free edges not even in the vocabulary of your competitors products?

tg

RE: Why do you like Femap?

tg,

Please contact me at the office - sherman dot mark at siemens dot com, I would be glad to set up a web conference and work with you and your geometry to make modeling with FEMAP as efficient as possible.

Mark.

RE: Why do you like Femap?

I like Femap because the people who develop it (and I don't mean the company, I mean the people themselves) are serious about making the process of doing FEA more powerful, productive and efficient. I have been using Femap xince 1995 and Nastran since 1987. Femap is the best pre-post for all Nastrans. It is a better pre/post for MSC.Nastran than MSC's own Patran, which I used for 14 years. The difference is in the "ergonomics". Patran was designed and developed by a committee ( a big committee) so it lacks coherence and workflow intelligence. Even in simple things like selecting entities based on their inherent logical association with other things is simple in Femap and clumsy in Patran. And making common geometry edits and have the mesh automatically update is superior in Femap compared to Patran. Patran has a few advantages over Femap, but not many. I think it sometimes does a tidier job of mesh transitioning in both surface and solid meshes with a smaller number of elements. However, based on a value and productivity proposition, Femap is all over Patran.

On Free Edges, any FEA program that doesn't have Free Edges in its vocabulary must be a b it weak. I'm not sure how a complex struture could be modelled without direct and user controllable choices on Free Edges. If the issue is mutliple coincident edges in geometry then "non-manifold add" deals with the bulk of that. Are there modelling packages that take away the thinking on free edges?

RE: Why do you like Femap?

Femap ... Overcomplicated to use!!!
I have been a PATRAN user for many years and while it has limitations in features it is easy to use.
FEMAP has way too many options and redundancies ... many ways to do one thing !!! ... clutter !!!!

There are too many mouse clicks and menu popping required to execute an operation ... create a new group/name it/close window/open another window/ activate/go to add entities/ .... etc

Solution ... Open window to create new group, ..... everything required for name, activate, add entities ... etc SHOULD be in this window and NO going around the menu system to do this. If one wants to create a new group they generally want to do it so they can put entities into it and for it to be active.
Still trying to get my head around group reference/evaluate/re-evaluate etc ....... and are they really needed in the way described !!

This is just "groups" ... one could go through many other functions.

Keep the main menu less cluttered and offer more. Minimize the need to continually open windows during the execution of a user operation.

Issue for me is why does the user have to move around the menu system so much to achieve something a single window can do if properly populated with associated options?

It is the usability issue for me and the extent of clutter. This is not an experienced user problem as they already JUST DO IT because. However to attract a NEW user it should be SIMPLIFIED and made easier to use. It has much functionality, that is not my issue here.

A relatively new user !!!! ............. still a work in progress for me!!!!
Is it just me or do others gripe at this issue?

RE: Why do you like Femap?

Outpost11,

FEMAP has many ways of doing the same things, to cater to new and legacy users alike. I strongly suggest either a course or to view the video demos on the Siemens site.

Link

You should look at using the menu tree on the LHS of your screen. Right clicking any item provides many useful options, including for Groups. A really useful feature is Automatic Add. All new entities created after toggling that on will be added to the active group. Other useful Group functions are (in the top menu): Group - Operations - Generate Property or material or other types. These commands automatically create groups of similar entities.

I have to say that since Version 10, I have much less of a need for creating groups, except for viewing or working with an actual slice of my model. This is because most entities in the menu tree have a check box next to them for toggling on or off.

tg

RE: Why do you like Femap?

Hi Tg
I really appreciate your response.
However, my point is it should not have many ways to do something. It just creates clutter and confusion. Experienced users are never the issue as they can adapt to simplifications very easily. I agree that the model info tree is a very nice addition.

However, just as an example, if I create a "new" GROUP I expect to have a single window pop up and input all of name, whether it should be active (toggle on/off), and option to enter entities to group without

having to just input name, then go back to Group and right click to activate, then go back again and right click to add entities .....

this is all excessive clicking ....

this is so with many more window menus, not just group !!!!

thanks


RE: Why do you like Femap?

Fully agree, Outpost11!!

Also not very nice for the occasional user (who of course still understands the theory and what basically needs be done), or users with little time... Carrying along too much legacy (and even all the old code words for this and that).

Regards

RE: Why do you like Femap?

2
In my experience, you can't do occasional FEA. It has to be a full time job, for a set period. Unless you follow a very detailed, documented procedure each time you fire up the machine. You need to use it every day, day in , day out or you end up forgetting things and re-running analyses. This applies to all packages, not just FEMAP.

That's my 2 cents.

tg

RE: Why do you like Femap?

Outpost11 and gfbotha

For arguments sake I have to disagree.

I think that the possibility to do a task not just one way but several ways is a strength. Also, there is often differences between the similar ways when you come to the details.

Regarding groups I don't use them so much any more. A few years back I used them a lot but today I prefer the Model Info tree. But something that I do use a lot is Layers and combined with Groups (when I do use them) I find to to be very powerful. As for creating groups and just using them, I can do that. Group-Create and Group-Element-ID if I understand the task.

As for mouse clicks and Patran. A few years back MSC.Nastran for Windows disappeared. MSC wanted the N4W users to swap to MSC.FEA so I evaluated Patran. Basically, a colleague with a few decades of experience in Patran showed me how it works. One of my impressions was the huge amount of mouse clicks and he commented on that. Basically he agreed smile.

You say you are a relatively new user and I think that is the main concern. You swapped from Patran to Femap and of course you could do things faster in Patran yesterday than you do in Femap today. I would be surprised otherwise winky smile. I would probable feel the same regarding Patran.

But if you like Patran and dislike Femap, why do you use Femap? Perhaps that is the question you should ask.

Regards

Thomas

Ps I hope I haven't started in argument because that is not my intention.

RE: Why do you like Femap?

Hallo trainguy

Well, opinions differ - for say 25 years already I am doing FEA in-between all my other tasks as mechanical engineer. Let's say at least once a month, sometimes for two weeks continually. I started with EMRC NISA - had to keep cryptic notes/tips/guidelines for each type of analysis (Femap reminds me about those days). Then we got Cosmos DesignStar (today only existing as SWorks Simulation) - what a pleasure to use! - the UI is not cluttered and sort of leads one through the workflow required with input boxes relevant to the type of analysis selected upfront. I know what people typically say next..., but, no, it is quite powerful; could do all non-linear types, transient, heat, fatigue, etc. Recently I compared a hyperelastic result done with NX Femap, to same done with DesignStar - for all practical purposes the results were the same!

I belief that doing a wide scope of mechanical engineering, and not only analysis, helps one to better understand the context of a simulation and to make good changes to the design in a more efficient workflow. With all due respect, not all companies can afford an engineer doing only FEA, day in and out.

NX Femap's strong point is a lot of (hidden winky smile) functionality for the price.

Regards

RE: Why do you like Femap?

I agree I think FEA is a full time job, and femap whilst looking a bit daunting at first is one of the best solutions once learnt. Partly because it can approach one problem in several different ways.

RE: Why do you like Femap?

(OP)

Quote (trainguy)

I like FEMAP because I love spending weeks getting rid of free edges - one of the great benefits of working with parasolid geometry!

Trainguy, my friend forwarded this to me. You might like video #2: http://www.mscsoftware.com/50years/?video

Who went to the conference? We need to be enlightened about this.

RE: Why do you like Femap?

outpost11 has it right. My company has both FEMAP and PATRAN. The new kids are encouraged to use and learn both with an emphasis on FEMAP. Everyone immediately picks up PATRAN and completely drops FEMAP. That includes the kids that take a class in FEMAP while learning PATRAN without training. The only exceptions to this have been the kids that learned FEMAP in college. When starting fresh with the two codes, PATRAN is always selected.

PATRAN's panels logically step through the model building process whereas FEMAP is back and forth and hidden under layers of menus to build a model. Several experienced engineers that used PATRAN took the 3 and 5 day training classes on FEMAP and came back unable to use the product due to the excessive busyness and complexity of the interface. The class was functionally a waste of time and money since FEMAP was not even attempted.

As outpost11 noted, groups are a huge pain to set up in FEMAP whereas PATRAN it is straight forward. The loads definition in FEMAP I still can't get straight so I just manually create the load sets in a text editor.

FEMAP is robust in general with reading and writing models. PATRAN is broken in several ways especially after MSC bought it with the goal of forcing everyone to switch to MSC products. My version of PATRAN is a bit dated so I'm not sure if this issue continues.

A major thing missing from FEMAP is the ability to report the area and lengths of particular elements. Reviewing someone else's model is more difficult in FEMAP.

The help manual in FEMAP makes your teeth hurt. Although it is complete, it does not report where in the maze of menus and toolbars to find a command.

Also in FEMAP, the mouse button spins the model and a keyboard button has to be pressed to do translation. I do not understand this setup since if I'm working on a model; it is normally being translated to see details. Spinning the #W$% model just blows the area I'm looking at off the screen, which requires significant effort to be recovered. I actually have no use for the mouse spinning feature and they have it locked as the standard.

The interface to FEMAP was obviously created by some IT dude with no understanding of FE analysis. Nothing is where it should be. In strong contrast, PATRAN places things in logical places. Another big issue with FEMAP is the pull-down menus. Frequently 3 or 4 levels of menus have to be opened for a function and then it only operates on a single item. Then this is repeated, over, and over, and over.... PATRAN's use of panels puts all the features needed in one place. Also in FEMAP, when a selection/command is open, the values of the data table or entry info cannot be scrolled to check a value, such as needing the node ID in an element. FEMAP has a superior interface to ABAQUS, but maybe I should just learn CAE. It's got to be easier than FEMAP.

Entity Info in FEMAP is almost useless. It displays the nearest element continuously. There does not appear to be a way to lock it so that the info can be copied or evaluated. PATRAN in contrast has a nice method to query an element and places it into a table for easy comparison with additionally selected elements.

You might be able to get the work done with FEMAP, but PATRAN will not cause dental problems and will finish the task in half the time with more confidence in the quality of the model.

BTW: note that I have been trying to learn FEMAP now for 4years. My ability with it is limited to fairly primitive and superficial items due to the tremendous difficulty in using the product. I waste time on FEMAP because my company is forcing us off PATRAN (consolidation of software and vendors???).

RE: Why do you like Femap?

I should add to my prior post that at least the NX support of FEMAP is far superior to MSC. MSC has virtually no user support. The only period that we actually got assistance from MSC was during a period that we evaluated NEI. After the evaluation, they completely dropped us and never returned phone calls nor email thereafter. Additionally, MSC frequently contacted and badgered our management during the evaluation.

Siemens (NX) has provided outstanding support. I have contacted them several times and have no complaints. They provide quick and accurate responses to questions on FEMAP.

Note that our new-hire engineers pick up PATRAN without any support.

So just, if only, Siemens could resell PATRAN. That would be the sweet spot!

RE: Why do you like Femap?

Eng-tips

Website where engineers provide tips.

So let's go guys - let's give Steve some FEMAP tips.

Here are two:

Right click / Previous command gives you the previous command, regardless of its "depth" in menus.

F6 - Tools and View Style - Model clipping plane allows you to cut your model at a plane you define

Others?

tg

RE: Why do you like Femap?

@SteveMills:

"Entity Info in FEMAP is almost useless. It displays the nearest element continuously. There does not appear to be a way to lock it so that the info can be copied or evaluated. PATRAN in contrast has a nice method to query an element and places it into a table for easy comparison with additionally selected elements."

Steve, you can use the Femap Selector Toolbar, and automatically add entity info to the data table, which can then be copied to Excel or other Windows programs if you like. You can also turn on the tooltips, right click, and save the tooltips on screen for documentation. Both of these features are superior to PATRAN IMHO. I've been using Patran since 1984 and find many things that work better in FEMAP.

Chris Teague
Saratech

RE: Why do you like Femap?

@SteveMills:

Hi

I don't really understand the criticism of groups. If you use the "Model Info" tree select a property and right click you can create a group with all the elements from that property, in very few "clicks". You can also from the "Model Info" tree work directly with the groups. Or, just activate the group and than use the Group menu (pull down).

If you look at the Visibility Toolbox you can actually combine the visibility of Groups-Layers-Properties-Materials-etc . I would say it is very powerful. Is it perfect? No, but it is better them some other tool I have seen.

Does Patran even have layers? But I won't spend time criticizing Patran.

When it comes to being forced from one software to another. I sympathize and can understand the frustration.
When MSC.Nastran for Windows "died" the MSC representative considered it obvious that I should swap to MSC.FEA. It was more expensive so it was obviously better, some logic smile. I refused which resulted in a long discussion regarding pros and cons. The result from that evaluation (I evaluated Patran) was that Patran was neither better nor worse than Femap, only different. Today I am not sure, but the impression is that Femap evolves faster than Patran.

Anyway, I hope you find a solution that works for you.

Good Luck

Thomas

RE: Why do you like Femap?

Hi all,

Dear Steve,

Can you send results (forces, stress, displacement...) from Patran to excel with one mouse click ?
Can you list properties, materials and other useful informations from Patran to excel with one mouse click ?
Can you create nodes, elements, loads, constraints sets, properties... using excel (useful for large model)?
Can you change DOFs of 500000 RBE elements in one click?
Can you create, run check analysis (1g- free-free- ground check..) and get results and report in one click?
etc...
I guess no !! with femap and thanks to API programming all of this commands are possible and very USEFUL

You maybe need more training to better discover Femap and its "magics" utilities.

Best regards.

RE: Why do you like Femap?

Hi all and particularly Steve Mills and Outpost11,

Sorry your exeriences with Femap are negative - it suggests the people who support or trained you don't love you enough!

The main reason Patran users don't like Femap Groups is because they use the same name, but do different things. In Femap a group is simply a collection of entities created by a set of rules (eg. by location, by association with entities, by type/colour/shape, or just picked from the screen). The idea that there is somehow a "problem" with Femap groups because they don't work the same way as in Patran is either a failure to learn or a failure to teach. If Patran still uses Lists as its method to collect entities (eg. by association), then by first-hand experience I can say that Femap's method of doing that on-the-fly (via the Methods button in the Entity Selection dialog) is way ahead of Patran. Perhaps MSC have finally fixed that archaic ergonomics by now.

SteveMills - your company must have a peculiar set of FEA activities that make Patran seemingly superior to Femap. On the other hand, we have in Australia a large group of commercial organisations whose experience and purchase decisions don't reflect that. These are people who used Patran for years and chose to change to Femap: eg. BlueScope Steel, BHP Billiton, QR National, Revolution Design and quite a number of small companies for whom cost-effective efficiency is paramount. The ones who don't make the switch are typically constrained by very long product lifecycles (must preserve legacy system), or have clients (like Boeing) who demand a specific FEA platform. Without those constraints, the evidence is clear that companies are voting with their feet - and confirmed by MSC's mediocre financial performance over the last decade, compared to its peers. Which is a pity, because a strong Nastran community is important, and MSC did quite a thorough job of weakening that. We do not have one single instance here where a company who originally started with Femap has simply "chosen" to "upgrade" to Patran. But there are many cases in the reverse.

What exactly is the problem with creating loads and load definitions in Femap? What Load(s), Load Cases, Load Combinations or Subcoms can I not create in Femap that can be created in Patran? I don't know of any.

Femap has been able to report lengths and areas of elements for at least 15 years, and has been able to do it faster than Patran for at least 10 of those. It is an automatic by-product of Tools | Mass Properties | Mesh Properties (as summation and/or individually). It can also be done via the Selector Toolbar and the Data Table (there is an icon to add element "mass" properties). Again, your support is either useless, or you are not asking the questions - and that's a little sad after using it for 4 years.

Reviewing someone else's model is very simple in Femap. Switch on the highlighter in the (expanded) Model Info tree and click on the relevant entities. Right click and edit as required.
And don't get us started on double-sided plate contours, free-body diagrams, bending moment diagrams, interface loads, results enveloping, full beam cross-section results, layup visualisation (etc. etc). These are things Patran either doesn't have at all, or doesn't do very well, or needs an extra cost option to achieve. Checking models is "easier" in Patran ONLY because it is what you are familiar with.

Like most help systems, Femap's requires some knowledge of what to look for. They slightly broke the help in Femap V11.0 (search functionality), but fixed it again in V11.0.1. Otherwise, Patran's help must have been completely transformed recently if it has any merit compared to Femap. However, make sure your Internet Explorer security settings are set to "Allow active content to run in files on My Computer", otherwise the superb context sensitivity of Femap's help is hobbled.

Not using the middle mouse button for rotating the model is the strangest criticsm I have heard. Firstly, it is identical to Patran's default installation and secondly if you have no use for rotating the model, that makes your use of FEA unique. If you don't like using the middle mouse button to rotate the model, then get yourself a spaceall or 3Dconnexion.

Your criticism of what you cannot check in Femap while doing something else has some merit, but were/are you using Patran on Linux or Unix? There are some inherent differences in what can be done with Windows compared to (eg) XWindows, and sometimes simultaneous access multi-window has some limited benefits. The claim that Femap was created "by some IT dude with no understanding of FE" is a bold call and simply does not reflect reality - and again suggests an issue with teaching or learning.

I will agree that the Entity Info panel is useless (to us), in that we use that screen real estate for stuff that we find more valuable.

But... your work is only easier in Patran because you are experienced with that, and at a beginner level in Femap. Sorry to say it will remain that way unless you choose to get better help, or put effort into the learning.

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