tail joist connection
tail joist connection
(OP)
I am analyzing a deck that has a double 2 x 8" girder that supports floor joist with a tail joist connection, three nails through the girder into the side of the joist. Need a code reference that says this is or is not acceptable. I need to prove why it is not acceptable and if and when it ever was





RE: tail joist connection
We can’t see it from here. And, what’s a tail joist connection?
Show a sketch of the detail with dimensions and all the loads, so that we can understand what you’re looking at.
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
So if you have a design by an engineer (or building designer, where allowed by code) the design controls the bearing requirements. As long as the design, such as a Simpson hanger or framing clip, does meet the code and engineering standards requirements.
The 2009 IBC Section 2308 states a minimum required size of 1.5" (or a 1x4 ribbon and joist nailed to studs) in Section 2308.8.1 for floor joists. Headers 1.5" requirement is in Section 2308.9.5.2. The 1.5" minimum bearing is also noted as require in many other sections of 2308.
The same applies to the IRC.
As for your detail, it would depends on what forces need to be transfered. But I would prefer to use a hanger and see no real reason not to. So the question is, can you find an engineer (or are willing able and will yourself), not me, to design and seal it. The values for end nails would be per the NDS under the IBC code.
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: tail joist connection
Thanks
RE: tail joist connection
So if the three end nails can be design per the above “Rationally” then it is per the code. I can not see any code not allowing the engineer the ability to follow this. You may have to go back to the code the deck was to be designed under. Then calculate the loads to the connection and the allowable value for the three end nails, under that code, to see if the connection meets this.
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: tail joist connection
Three nails just doesn't cut it - by no means!! 22'' of water weighs about 110 lbs per sq ft. - usually well over the design limit of a deck!!
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
1 End grain nailing is not only a nono, it is a nevernever! Side, top,or bottom only! No exceptions ever!!!!!!!!!
2. There was probably an inadequate shear nailing from the outside 2X to the inner one also.
3. There should have been a strap at the top, tying the two exterior 2X beams to the joists, to couter any rotational forces due to eccentric loading.
All this is only structural engineering common sense and a good standard of practice, irrespective of the requirements of any code.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
So per the 1988 UBC section 104 (d) “Maintenance. All buildings and structures, both existing and new, shall be maintained in a safe and sanity condition....” and “...The owner or his designated agent shall be responsible for the maintenance of buildings and structures...”
And this is pretty much the same in all the codes, to my knowledge. Did the owner comply with this?
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: tail joist connection
That is why you need either a hanger with side nailing, or a strap over the top.
This sounds like a situation where both parties are at fault, but the existing owner has the deeper pocket, as he is here.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
RE: tail joist connection
RE: tail joist connection
However, in the First Edition of the AITC Timber Construction Manual (1966), on page 5-50, under "Withdrawl Loads", it very specifically states that "Loading of nails or spikes in withdrawl from end grain is not permitted."
This basic engineering principle for wood goes back a long way in the codes...
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
RE: tail joist connection
I agree that nails in end grain should not be used, but in the situation described by the OP, the nails are in shear, not withdrawal.
RE: tail joist connection
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com