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Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences
14

Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

(OP)
News out of Iran. Worthy of discussion.

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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

It isn't surprising. About the time the Shah fell, I had a male, Iranian friend at college. What an experience!

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Not that I want to start any heated arguments, but it almost appears like they don't like women in a position of athorty. A male ego trip to see who can own the most women.

There might be another religon reason that escapes me, so I don't know why. Please enlighten me on why if you know more than me.

Just from an outsider perspective, this looks like something other than what they might explain it to be.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Put women at the bottom where they belong!!! I am REALLY kidding. Typical mid-eastern thinking. No wonder they are 3rd world nations living just above abject poverty with little to no future!!! The Dark Age is being re-born in this part of the world!!! Why we are any way involved - I have no clue except for some stupid President who I will not name....

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

I don't excatly like the term third world, as it implies a second world, which I can't identify.

I do see in pictures from the middle east a lack of the female influence. No flowers and such. Maybe they are decended from mars.

They did invent zero (if I recall correctly), which is better than the romans.

I would rather say they can't out think us because they have half there brains tied behind there backs.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

What always strikes me about such aspects of sexism and racism is the idea that a society somehow believes it is better off when it marginalizes half (or more) of its creativity and brainpower.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

The second world were still having civil wars while the first world were into their industrial revolution.

- Steve

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

I was in college from 1976-1980, so my tenure spanned the fall of the Shah and the capture of the US embassy. We had many middle eastern students in our civil engineering program, including some from Iran, some from Jordan, a couple from Lebanon, etc. My best estimate is about ten Iranian students in my class alone. We also had a few middle eastern women in our program, one of who I know for certain was from Iran ("M"). A couple of the others may also have been from Iran but I didn't remember now.

M was fairly western in her outlook (her father had a some position in the Shah's regime; her best friend in our program was an American gal). M was a very good student, very well-liked, and ended up graduating near the top of our class. A couple of the Iranian guys were also fairly western in their outlook (one even married an American gal) and they didn't seem to have a problem with M getting an education. However, the rest of the Iranian guys had a more "traditional" viewpoint. On the one hand they would criticize M for being "too American" (she wore contemporary American style clothes) and on the other hand they would contantly pester her for her class notes. (To be fair, they pestered a lot of us for our class notes. As you can imagine, these guys were not as successful as those of us who actually went to class all the time and took our own notes, but I digress.)

Several times I witnesses one or more of these "traditional" Iranian guys pestering M in Farsi for her class notes. Each time, her response would be "We're in American, we speak English." Then she would walk away and leave these losers with dumbfounded expressions. I don't think they ever figured it out.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

fel3, I watched my friend go from being more hedonistic than any of the American kids to hyper-religious. He stopped drinking, smoking pot, and dancing at the clubs but didn't give up cigarettes. He made it a point to pray, which was a big switch. He needed help with mathematics. And, there is more... What an experience!

There was one Iranian woman in the dorm but she was quite a bit more traditional in wearing all the clothing, praying, not socializing with Americans, etc. She scolded the male Iranian quite often for adopting American ways. Quite an interesting dynamic to see. She was maybe 2 years older but acted ancient and very closed off.

I knew a former pilot in the Shah's regime, who barely made it out of Iran alive, with his family. Khomeini was after all of the Shah's "people" to kill them. He married an American gal and they had a baby. It was a scary time for them. It reinforced my thoughts on marrying outside of my country.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

I firmly believe in equality and social justice, but I do consider that the Muslim extremists also firmly believe they are right. They believe so firmly that some will deliberately sacrifice their life as suicide bombers etc for their cause. Which of us is so strongly bound to our beliefs.

Who is the umpire who decides which belief is the correct one? I guess this is partly why I am an atheist and only moderately support democracy and even less capitalism from an ideological point of view.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote (patprimmer)

Who is the umpire who decides which belief is the correct one?
Either the one who lasts the longest, or the one with the most power.

I hope that we get an influx of brilliant women from the Middle East who are as outraged by this nonsense as I am.

"Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." -Scott Adams

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

The most desperately needed social change in the history of the planet is a sexual revolution in the middle east. Until women are liberated there, and they have equal rights and opportunity to influence governmental policy with their levity and perspective to balance the sabre-rattling and neanderthalism, I think we are doomed.

IC

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

While liberation of people sounds like a good idea, it dosen't work for everyone. I believe there are people who need to be controlled. People with no direction and no idea on what to do with there lives. They maybe better off if they were controlled (call me insensitive).

But... for most people liberation is good and is a much better thing we do.

Everyone has a right to there religon, but ...but they should be allowed to make there own choice.

I do support democracy and capitalism, because counter to some theorys, they work better than other systems. Not that they are perfect, and people will point that out, but they work better for more people.

If I were king, I would support that system because it worked for me.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

5
"Democracy" and "capitalism" are only means to an end. What really counts is liberty and rule of law.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

i do hope we're not saying they're wrong to do this. in our opinion, foolish (since we think they're missing out on a lot of talent) and out-dated (western societies would have been similar through to WW2, ok they wouldn't have banned women from applied, just made it impossible). they presumably are doing this with some justification, hopefully something more sensible (to me) than their stance on homosexuality ... "there are no homosexuals in Iran, none". I suspect there is something in the Koran that supports this, but it is surprising for a culture that championed education in the "dark ages" and that allowed greek and roman knowledge and literature to survive. of course, back then it was (i think, and i welcome correction) education for men only. but then maybe that is the problem in trying to live by a book written hundreds of years ago; today's culture/norms is inconceaviblily different from the culture that existed then. society's norms change over time ... one time (long ago) slavery was considered "right" and defendable by "the good book"; then opinions changed and today it is pretty much unthinkable. the role of women in society has undergone a revolution over the last 50 years, which is only a moment in time.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Pamela…

M's parents barely made it out of Iran themselves during this period. I still remember M's anxiety during this time and how a bunch of us (pretty much all Americans) gave her moral support. She didn't find out for about 6 weeks if they made it out or not. Through it all, she kept up with her coursework, but she obviously had a much harder time than the rest of us. A little Internet sleuthing and I discovered that she later completed a master's degree and is still in the US. Her best American friend works for a local agency. I should find out if they're still in contact.

Also during this time, several of the "traditional" Iranian guys joined protests on campus with about a hundred other Iranian students from various majors. You may remember these: they all wore paper bags over their heads and shouted "Death to America." A friend of mine (electrical engineering student and ex-Air Force officer) shamed several of them into quitting the protests. He told a group of them "You should thank God you're in the US, where we protect freedom of speech. If you protested like that in Iran you would be arrested, tortured, and possibly killed."

Fun times…not so much.

Fred

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote:

"You should thank God you're in the US, where we protect freedom of speech. If you protested like that in Iran you would be arrested, tortured, and possibly killed."
This was true enough both before and after the fall of the Shah.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Agreed, but all thing considered it went from bad to worse when the Shah fell.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Fred, I missed the protests on campus. Would have been interesting to see. Paper bags, eh? They would have fit in good with the "aint's" at Saints games.

It would be interesting for you to talk with your old friends. M had great mental stability to carry on in such uncertain circumstances regarding her parents.

The few Iranians I've talked with say the country is decidedly worse, since the Shah's fall. Each country has to decide its own form of government. I'm happy to be in the USA, warts and all.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Well yes it is my opinion. I doubt anyone would be expressing someone elses opinion, and no one knows it all well enough to express it. So you are very welcome to disagree.

For every system someone can say is bad, there was/is someone who gains from it. Besides slavery in this country evolved from indetured servents. These indetured servents that ran off from there contract prior to the completion, had there time extended by the courts.
For some people this system worked, because they had no money to pay for passage to this country.

If your objection is my comments about some people are better off being controlled, I understand. But don't denigh reality.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Cranky I actually agree with your opinion. You really missed my point.

The point is that no matter how strongly we believe in something, it is really arrogant to demand it must be right especially if others have just as strong a belief in a contrary opinion.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Certainly, if you don't want your society to progress, and you want to stay stuck in the past and tradition, you're better off ensuring that half of your population isn't able to participate.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Iran went from secular despotism (bad) to religious despotism (far worse). US voters would do well to take note.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Really unfortunate

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Crank, Iran does not get credit for inventing zero.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

I am somewhat sure zero came from the middle east, but not from Iran (the present country).

An interesting comment I heard a few weeks ago, that many muslems, like many christions, don't read there holy book, that they trust what is told to them by there religon leaders. This sort of fits with millions of muslems being angry over a cartoon, but only after several days when they were informed by there religon leaders.

Scary how so many people could be controlled by some one person in todays time.

There are followers, leaders, and us lost others.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote (patprimmer)

The point is that no matter how strongly we believe in something, it is really arrogant to demand it must be right especially if others have just as strong a belief in a contrary opinion.
This approach only works if both opinions are equally valid. If I assert something that is verifiably untrue, it doesn't matter how passionately I assert it, it doesn't make someone arrogant to tell me I'm wrong. Similarly, if I make an assertion based on invalid logic, although the assertion might be true, my reasoning for such may be dismissed.

The statement "Some fields are not very suitable for women’s nature," given as justification for this decision (as per Abolfazl Hasani the first article), is both verifiably untrue and poorly-reasoned. As such, we can confidently say that this was a stupid, stupid thing to do.

"Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." -Scott Adams

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

cranky108, I believe that's how North American society operates, too, people react by what they are told to think/say/do by the media, or their spiritual advisor. People are expected to be outraged by someone's birth certificate, or tax returns, or some other trivial thing. It does make it easier to steal the nation blind, when you distract the masses with trivialities.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

People are trying to rationalize this decision?

It's not a difference in culture that we just don't understand, it's hatred and bigotry wrapped in the shade of "traditional religious views" (which by extension becomes "traditional cultural views") or hatred and bigotry fueld by "traditional religious/cultural views". There is no rational discussion you can have on taking away women's (or any other groups) right to partake in something that will improve their lives (and the countries as well).

And for those of you that think this is a foreign concept, reserved only for extremist religious countries like Iran, need to remind themselves of the damn chick-a-flick stupidity going on in America. This is directly relatable to the gay rights issue in America.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

cranky, you seem to be bringing out the historian in me. "First World" was the "Western" countries. "Second World" was the Soviet Union and associated countries. "Third World" was everyone else. The usefulness of the terms kinda fell apart when the Soviet Union did.

The origin of zero - you can make an argument or Babylon using a proto-zero (which is the Middle East, but waaaay pre-islam.) The best argument for a discrete zero used in numerical calculations instead of a placeholder (used as we do today) gives the title to India.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Well India is in Asia or the East and has only had a significant Muslim population since plundered by the Moguls in 1526

Regards
Pat
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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

It was not so long ago that here in the US, there were virtually no women in engineering and science. In the 1970s when I was in junior high, it was a big deal when a girl wanted to take shop class. Now there are a few in the engineering rank and file getting paid 90 cents for every dollar and equally qualified man makes. There are even fewer women in upper management, and that number seems to be shrinking. And now with the US's various assaults on women's rights, I feel like women are on very shaky ground.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

There are multiple reasons for the "90 cents on the dollar" - gender bias is the obvious one. Another is that women are much less likely to negotiate on salary, or request raises. When I started this job, I negotiated up 5% from the initial offer. One negotiation meant 5% higher salary for my entire time here.

Do some women negotiate? Absolutely. Just a lower percentage than men.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

No doubt that there are differences in negotiation styles. But there also can be vestiges of the attitude that women don't need as much because they are not the main bread winner. And now, maybe women should be content with less and consider themselves lucky they don't live in Iran.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

"maybe women should be content with less and consider themselves lucky they don't live in Iran" ... similarly most men too ...

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote (graybeach)

And now, maybe women should be content with less and consider themselves lucky they don't live in Iran.
I sure hope this is tongue-in-cheek. That's flamebait, there.

"Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." -Scott Adams

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Sorta meant tongue in cheek, but I do think there is a certain overall sense of justification for paying women less. Look at Peggy on Mad Men. She considers herself lucky to be making more than the secretaries, but was not meant to imagine making the same as men. Vestiges of this logic still exist today in the minds of managers.

I fees so sad for the millions of normal, rational Iranian people who are caught up in all of this. Why don't more people in the US see their fate as the logical conclusion to our own push toward theocracy? OK - I'll stop now.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Tenpenny, I also said somepeople would do better if they were controled. Maybe there would be fewer shooting over drugs (Something that is sticking with me today).

I have heard it said in Germany they elect the loudest loud mouth. Which appears to be the standard world wide (sad to say). We are being led by the media, goverment officials, and other influnces. It is education of the facts in Iran, and here that is the problem. People will make decisions on there bisas without the facts.

In the past, many engineers came from farming families. They saw how things worked, because they had to fix them. Many women did not work on farm equipment.
In more recent times engineering education had to change as fewer students had the fix it background (the students changed). This allowed more women without the fix it background to suceed. (Or so it appears to me, not that I am an expert on this, but I have to try to understand this in my head).

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Oh, cranky... Pft.

You guys wouldn't believe what I've heard from men, across the ranks, over the years. Let's see:
  • Women don't fix things; therefore, they don't make good engineers
  • You're taking the place of a man with a family
  • You're taking the place of a man that will eventually have a family
  • You're taking the place of a man
  • You'll never make what I make because you're a woman
  • You'll never be viewed as my equal because you're a woman in a man's field
  • You'll have to work twice as hard to be better than me
  • Women shouldn't be in engineering and certainly not manufacturing
  • Women shouldn't be in a male dominated field
  • A woman's job is to spit out babies
Not all men think this way. For those that do, well, men should be wary, too, as they'll have other biases at work.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

While I would object to everything on Pamela's list, I equally object to the numerous awards and competitions, grants, scholarships and the like which are open solely to women in a misguided attempt to entice them in to engineering. Equality should mean precisely that: equal pay, equal terms, equal conditions, equal funding, equal everything else in return for equal effort and equal productivity. The use of gender-specific awards etc in the name of 'equality' is almost comical in its hippocracy.

Cranky's 'fix it' observation applies to pretty much all kids today: pretty much none of them have a clue how to maintain their car, or fix their bike, or repair their stereo. Gender equality has indeed been achieved, but unfortunately everyone is now of equal inability. When I was a kid very few girls my age tinkered with cars, but among my slightly younger friends there are a more than a few females who do: times have changed, and in a good way. Among my single female friends a number are quite adept at DIY stuff around their homes; had they been in a relationship I doubt these skills would have developed as much. Skill born of necessity? Or are they single because they enjoy their independence and don't need a guy to put up shelves? At least one of them never asks me to do anything for her, just asks me how so she can do it.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

of course there's a world of difference between being discouraged (by society's norms) from doing something and being told "no, you can't do that"

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote (ScottyUK)

The use of gender-specific awards etc in the name of 'equality' is almost comical in its hippocracy.
Sort of. However, I'd much rather a culture that is aware of its gross inequities and provides some compensation for them (while working towards equality) than a culture that pretends to treat everyone the same superficially, despite clear discrimination.

"Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." -Scott Adams

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

yes, reverse discrimination is intended to reverse the skew created by generations of the previous norm.

sort of like the US "domestic" car of the year award ... as though american cars can't compete against their international rivals ... oh, wait a minute, they ...

well on another topic, how about them yankees ? (lord knows, i don't, just trying to deflect the conversation to something neutral, like sport)

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

ScottyUK, since I grew up without a dad in the home, we were "forced" into doing a lot of things he would should have done. They were always interesting to me but engineering wasn't my first choice. When I talked with Mother about what I wanted to do, she gave a flat refusal and the discussion ended pretty quickly. I was a pretty messed up kid and her choices didn't seem to match anything within reach for me. We were so poor and nobodies in the family and society not much seemed w/in reach. I had very few dreams as a child and as I moved into adolescence, they became even fewer. Math and science were always easy for me so it may not, for me, be so much born of necessity. A friend is very good at math but stunk at English so she pursued English in college. She now works more with math and English in her own financial planning biz.

I like to figure out how to do things and do them. I'm single for a lot of reasons one of which is enjoying my independence. Would it be nice to be married? Yes. It's not happening so I live to the best of my abilities and enjoy my friends. An uncle told me that getting educated would reduce my marriageability. At that age, I was already familiar enough with men to have a high degree of uncertainty about my desire to marry. After all, my dad wasn't loyal to any of his six kids with two ex-wives and his third wife.

I love men but if there are too many problems or a few that are particularly outstanding, they're best kept at arm's length or greater. The men I've dated haven't worked on their problems and turn nasty to varying degrees, for no apparent reason. Life is much too short for that. If anyone treats you poorly when you are new, how will they will treat you when you're old? It pays to be slow, methodical, and have smart, experienced friends. I've learned even more principles from Bible study than friends that have protected me from mistakes, too. I've made enough mistakes to have no desire for more.

In an ideal world, there would be no need for women specific awards. Hopefully we'll get pretty close to ideal in another 10+ generations. People change slowly, if at all. Based on my experiences in the workplace, there was probably need for women specific awards.

rb1957, you make a fine distinction. Yet, for many women, the cumulative effect of discouragement becomes denial. If you have children and you discourage them enough about their ability to do math, they'll believe, at some point, they, indeed, cannot do math. I taught remedial math to a young man with that very problem and he was very bright.

Words have meaning. If you're going to speak words to or over someone, think of the a/effects they'll have on the recipient.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote:

An uncle told me that getting educated would reduce my marriageability.

Simultaneously weeding out too many losers while also raising your standards, I suppose.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

i agree that society's repeated messages are very powerful, becoming self-fullfulling prophecies. people continually told "you're a failure" will on the most part come to believe or accept that they are failures. (it's a different discussion whether people who are failing should be told that, as opposed to today's world where "no-one is allowed to fail, it'll hurt their feelings to be labelled".)

still being discouraged to do something and being prevented from doing it are two different things. in the case of the former, some very strong people (probably including yourself) will fight cityhall all the way and eventually succeed.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

TheTick, I'll have to remember that.

rb1957, agreed. I believe the truth works best. My graduate advisor at Pitt was of the same mind and detested the path management took with employees. It does nothing to develop them professionally or personally. If you don't tell someone what they're doing wrong, they never have an opportunity to grow. And we all have room for growth.

Ha! I just got a call from a female recruiter, who complimented both websites and said it's nice to know there are women out there who can do that kind of stuff.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Gee... Maybe I should't make note of how things changed. And how that may have changed the face of engineering as a profession.

When I was in college there was a sort of push by instructors to push women out of the profession. I did not notice it much then, maybe because I was a geek looking for a place to be. Who else would be at the computer lab at 3AM.

Many times I have had people ask me how do you become a protection engineer. Well sorry you don't get that from books, you learn by doing.
Many people learned how a car works by having to repair them. Some of those people became engineers.
To me part of engineering should be hands on (a dumb thing for an electrical to say).

I happen to work with several good women engineers, and I do appreciate there unique viewpoints.


RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Pamela,

Sounds like you have a few things in common with at least one very good friend. She too seems to have the knack of finding the poorer examples of my half of the species while dodging the decent ones, although she may have actually found a keeper this time.

Life sure is too short to dwell on the people and things which make you unhappy.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Kudos to you Pamela for getting passed the adversities in your life. Your remarks on kids who are told that they are not good in math will eventually believe that they are not has reminded me of my seventh and eighth grade. Being an inner city child at public schools in desperate minority neighborhoods, it has never been encourage to work hard or advance one’s education. I remember days of playing cards (Spit was the card game of choice) in the front row of the class while the teacher was rolling out his teaching plan. There’re even days where my friends (or homeboys back then) and I would not even switch classes. We would hang out or play cards while the new class came in and the old class would leave. The teachers and school staff just did not care and let us be. However, I guess fortune has been good to me. My parents (who were the immigrants to this country) have always encouraged me to achieve my education, but I was just a kid who thought I had all the answers, but really did not. Somehow I took a high school entrance exam and did well and was able to get into a college bond program. However, I was still a mediocre student by the time I graduated high school. But for some reason, once I was in college, I blossomed. Maybe it was because once on campus I did not have to worry about being shot because I stood up for myself or get shanked for my sneakers.

On the topic of women in the work force or even if women can lead, here is a site that may dispel any negative stereo types: http://www.forbes.com/sites/moiraforbes/2012/08/27...

Religion is a very dangerous method of brain washing. I am not atheist and believe there is a higher being, but I do not believe that any person or group has the right to say their opinions in God’s name or say that they speak for God.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”
"People get promoted when they provide value and when they build great relationships"

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

cranky, I didn't mean anything negative. I guess I don't hold to what most people view as traditional for women. I've always thought work was work and it had to get done no matter who did it or what kind of private parts they strutted around. winky smile My grandparents were cotton farmers and they both worked hard. Grandma had scoliosis but it didn't stop her from working hard in the fields and the home. A lot has changed and most of it has been good. At least, I think so.

ScottyUK, well maybe she and I will have an opportunity sometime to compare notes and write a book together. winky smile I've been thinking about writing one for years but I need to find a sense of humor first to inject a ton of it. smile I hope things work out for her this time. She must be a wonderful gal. smile

Twoballcane, congrats to you on rising above your circumstances. Sounds like a tough environment to do much beyond survive. I'm glad you overcame the childhood obstacles and blossomed in college. That's always a wonderful thing to see. I suspect inner city kids have it much rougher than country kids. The population density alone would make inner city life tough. Fearing for your life like that would be tough.

And lest we get carried away by the powerful women...Fortune 500 Female CEOs

Quote (HuffPost)

Though this year marks a new high for female CEOs, women still run just 3.6 percent of Fortune 500 companies.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

One thing to watch for in stateing numbers for positions, pay, or anything else, is be sure the person making the statment is not biased. Bad numbers in poles or statments just sours many people on the whole subject.

Also be careful of the sampleing, as the error rates in some poles can be huge because of the small samples.

The issue of the number of Female CEO may well be a topic for several decades, for several reasons. While female's are 50% of the population, clearly not as many of them are invested in a corporate climbing thing. And if you look at the number of years many CEO's have in business, and when women started entering the corporate world in large numbers, there are not that many with the same level of experence. I do agree there is some bisas in this area, but the numbers are not telling the real story. The numbers. I believe, are being presented for an agenda.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

I must have grown up in a backward place. In first grade, I was singled out with four others as we were ahead in math and reading. I was the only boy. In second grade, the group added one boy and one girl.

Things evened out a bit in high school, but the number of girls in advanced math and science was equal to or greater than the number of boys.

Somehow, I managed to grow up with the impression that girls were smarter than boys (or at least better students). This made it difficult to reconcile the chauvinist attitudes of older generations.

I do observe a gap in the fix-it, hammer-mechanic type skills, though I don't see this as a show-stopper for women demonstrating competence in technical fields. Plenty of boy-putzes without these skills, too.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Tick, similar here. Last couple of years at high school my 'pure math' class was fairly evenly split as I recall. The applied math class was pretty even too. I think the statistics classes were female heavy - which implies the other pure math class was probably female heavy. Physics on the other hand was significantly male dominated - maybe only 20% female in my class.

Get to my aero eng class at uni and it was only about 10% female and quite a few of them dropped out in the first term.

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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote:

People are trying to rationalize this decision?

It's not a difference in culture that we just don't understand, it's hatred and bigotry wrapped in the shade of "traditional religious views" (which by extension becomes "traditional cultural views") or hatred and bigotry fueld by "traditional religious/cultural views". There is no rational discussion you can have on taking away women's (or any other groups) right to partake in something that will improve their lives (and the countries as well).

It is not my place to rationalize the actions of people in other countries. As far as I'm concerned we in the United States need to get it through our heads that policing the world is not our job, and micromanaging the level of hatred and bigotry in other countries is not only impossible, it creates more problems than it solves. Yes it's terrible. Glad I don't live there.

If the Iranians don't want to live in a world of hatred and bigotry, they will eventually figure out how to throw the bigots out. In fact, I think they're well on their way to that, based on the Ahmadinnerjacket protests that sparked the Arab Spring. But they've got to figure that out on their own, and no policy we (Americans) can adopt is going to help them figure it out. In point of fact, the "fear of America" is part of what keeps their current regime in power.

There's my libertarian rant of the day.

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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

bee, it was our perspective before WWII that we should not interfer in other countries affairs. However, we found that other countries don't have the same viewpoint.

The result is we do need to be active in other countries affairs, but maybe not to the levels we are today.

In the case of piracy on the high seas, who can argue that it dosen't affect us. So we need to be involved.
Of the two canels, panama, and suez, is it important to us if our ships can use them. Then we need to be involved.
Is poching in other countries important to us?
Is drug importation important to us?
Is sales of nucular weapons important to us?

And if wre not involved, who should be, the UN?

But I do agree we should be less involved in some things than we are.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

The USA should only interfere when issues in other countries affect their own security, but not for reasons of economy. Oh and they should not lie about the security reasons.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Of course,but it should only be the security component that is considered.

I am sure the canals issues are both, but more economic but still I can see a case for maintaining stability there.

The pirate issues are both, but much more about security. The middle East is about oil and is economic despite lies told (or maybe intel mistakes made if you believe in flying pigs) about security to justify an invasion.

Now I am going to be really controversial. Vietnam was about trade routes from Laos and Heroin trafficking via the Mekong River with lies about security as justification.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

I don't know, the potential impact on the economy of oil shortages could be significant enough to constitute a security threat.

Not saying that covers all or even most recent Mid East conflicts, just saying it's one of those fuzzy areas.

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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Lack of oil for civilian use is not a security threat. I think the USA can still buy enough oil at the asking price without military action to influence negotiations. Yes it might cost more, but that is commercial, not security.

If prices go up because others also want to buy it, well that's a free market and what the USA claims to fight for. It would be kinda hypocritical to fight for peoples freedom so that you can undermine it yourself.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

“Trouble is there is a link between economics and security”
I have to agree with Kenat. Everywhere the USA goes it has always been to squash security threats and to stabilize the economy in that country. WWII is a great example when Germany and Japan dragged the US in to war and then at the end of the war the US planted a US Military base at each country for security reason and the byproduct was that the two countries prospered economically afterwards. The citizens in both countries prospered with business, better schools…etc. Now for the Korean War and Vietnam War, these were Communist backed threats, however, South Korea faired a better economic growth than North Korea. Just because (like a religion) North Korea citizens believe that their leader is benevolent and righteous. Vietnam and the surrounding countries are prospering too, even under dictatorship. Now it seems, in my opinion, that the leaders of countries that rule their people with religious rhetoric do not care about their citizens well being. The leaders are so brains washed with religious prophecies that they feel that they are the superior country and thus capable of horrific acts because they feel that God is on their side. Just like Germany, Japan, and Korea, the US is trying to stop the madness and free the country from religious fanatics so that the citizens can grow their economy. This cannot happen without a strong military present. Once their economy is growing, the security threat against the US will decline. In the words of Rodney King “Can’t we all get along?!”.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”
"People get promoted when they provide value and when they build great relationships"

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote:

"The U.S. cares about democracy in countries that are not important." --Fareed Zakaria

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

there's either a "doesn't" missing, as in "US doesn't care ..."
or delete the "not" and add "only" ... "US only cares ... that are not important"

the US has it's interests and tries to protect them.

Should it try to project it's Bill of Rights (as amended/updated now to include women) onto others ?

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Nope. That's at least the gist of the quote. Saw it on the Daily Show (Jon Stewart). The idea of the discussion was that the US will not destabilize countries for the sake of democracy if the current relationship is too important. We'll tolerate anything for a profit.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote (pat)

Now I am going to be really controversial. Vietnam was about trade routes from Laos and Heroin trafficking via the Mekong River with lies about security as justification.

A friend's father-in-law fled Vietnam with his family to avoid death at the hands of the communists. He was a doctor. He is a staunch Republican because he detests and loathes communism and knows the path to it. He lived and escaped it. I cannot guarantee this but he would probably disagree with your assessment. Not being controversial but injecting someone else's experience in Vietnam during that time.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

twoballcane,

Germany has always been a prosperous and powerful nation, since before the US ever existed and certainly long before it decided to open a base there to engage itself in the cold war with the USSR. I'm not sure it is a good example of US involvement being a factor in the nation becoming prosperous.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Quote:

And if wre not involved, who should be, the UN?

That was exactly the entire point of the UN. It's why it exists. It's why it was formed.

The USA has two moats on its eastern and western borders, each a quarter or more the width of the entire planet. Nobody's invading us. The only threat to our national security is the dollar collapsing under our debt load, from us spending too much money trying to police the world.

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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Pamela

While your friends inlaws may or may not have had a legitimate fear, before the Americans became involved, Vietnam was a civil war where the majority of the indigenous people where trying to overthrow a foreign colonial power who had set up an elite ruling class that was a different religion and culture to the vast majority.

Such wars normally result in some retaliations afterward, no matter which side wins and I am sure prominent members of that elite ruling class would have been targeted, however Vietnam is now a peaceful and united country with the vast majority of former South Vietnamese citizens safe and well. Ho Chi Minh did not apply the domino theory and continue to impose his ideology on surrounding countries once he achieved his goal of liberating part of his country from the French.

I would think, based on their own history, the USA should actually have had some sympathy for them in their efforts to overthrow a colonial government so the vast majority of the citizens could install a government of an ideology of their choosing, especially when Ho Chi Minh initially had a good relationship with the USA due to him being an allie in the war against Japan.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

ScottyUK:
Germany did not exist as a nation until the 1870s.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

By that logic I guess it ceased to exist during the period 1945 - 1990 too. I should have started that sentence with "The area of land occupied by present day Germany has...", but it seemed a little pedantic...

Anyway, the point is still true regarding the disconnect between US bases established on "the area of land occupied by present-day Germany" in the years following World War 2 and the economic prosperity of the people occupying the aforementioned area of land.

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Words like "contest" and "pissing" spring to mind. This discussion is so similar to the stuff that went on when I was in the 6th form. A boys school though, so there was none of these "female" issues.

- Steve

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

rofl2

RE: Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences

Sometimes I think some of these so called "female" issues are just made up just to sell something. After all to they sell a lot of finger nail colors in Iran?
So maybe there thinking avoids some of the social problems we have.

We could avoid some of the social problems we have if we changed the driving age to 21. But don't want to.

I guess the bottom line is people should vote with there feet, as well as there money on which system they like.


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