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can't find a job

can't find a job

can't find a job

(OP)
Hi All,

I'm a statistician (age 59) who retired early to return to school to finish engineering degree. Went to an ABET school finished an AAS in EE. Been looking for a job for 15 months. No one will hire me. Is it the economy? My age? Lack of experience? Have I wasted my time pursuing my dream?
It's been a terrible experience. One place I interviewed the hiring engineer called told me he loved my resume but when I went for the interview he said to me "I'm looking for someone younger".
Is that all this comes down to?

RE: can't find a job

That's going to part of it. The other part, of course, is the AAS. Generally, the industries have established a BS as the minimum threshold for hiring.

What did you do when confronted with, "I'm looking for someone younger?" Did you respond as if you were not younger? Attitude is a huge part of selling job. You are selling a product, namely, yourself. As a statistician, you surely know all the stats about what makes people want to buy things, but also, ageism, both overt and covert. You've met the enemy, and you now need to use the tools and skills you've learned over a lifetime to battle the enemy.

The bottom line is that there are lots of younger engineers who are hunting for jobs as well. How are you distinguishing yourself from them? Your last line seems to indicate a severe lack of energy, i.e., why are you not asking how could you buck "this?"

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: can't find a job

You have to wonder if "younger" means "less experienced" (lower starting pay) since age discrimination is supposed to be illegal.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: can't find a job

Not wishing to sound rude but why would anyone take on a 59 year old with no experience?

RE: can't find a job

PFF,

If you happen to be in the US, I would respond a little more strongly to "I'm looking for someone younger." In the interview, I would have confronted that statement with something like, "You know, in fairness to both of us, I am compelled to point out that there is a law against age discrimination." If a concession was not forthcoming, I would go straight to the EEOC. Being over 40 years old, you're in a protected class. Your age can actually be a benefit in a job hunt, especially with the larger companies who are keenly aware of the discrimination laws and the consequences for violating them.

Them's my thoughts. My former companies had very good policies that required special attention to protected classes and thorough documentation of reasons if they did not get an offer.

If you're not in the US, I apologize for the rant. Check your jurisdiction's laws.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

RE: can't find a job

I can't find a delicate way to say this. AAS is only half a degree. Statistician? What's that? Crunching numbers for an insurance company? Did you have a degree before this?

If you have experience with statistics, you could go into quality (QC).

RE: can't find a job

Now that I'm at a full-size keyboard and can type like a human...

In the bulk of industry, AAS degree is barely entry-level, and employers are looking for young ones for drudge work and to be groomed for bigger things. They are looking for people with a longer horizon. I don't think it's as much about money as it is about potential.

There are places that have little regard for engineering, and will hire just about anybody but and engineer to do their engineering work.

Again, with a background in statistics, you would be ideal for quality assurance type work.

RE: can't find a job

Thanks for all the "candid" responses. Okay I was asked about my background BS & MS mathematics with emphasis in dynamics systems (differential eq) and Probability and Statistics. Nearly completed a PhD in Operations Research but could not stand school any longer. I have over 300 credits and am tired of taking classes. Worked for 32 years at a University as a researcher. Did some teaching. I believe this is a major negative. There are those who believe any academic work is the same as being faculty. IT IS NOT. I worked my butt off like anyone else. Nonetheless, this fallacy prevails.

Started in EE when first in college in 1971. Worked as an EE technician for two years (mid 70's) and switched to mathematics after being convinced by the EE engineers I worked with that engineering would be a waste of my time. Ha. I've always loved EE and wanted to return to it. However, I would prefer to work as a technician at this time. I really enjoyed that work. I can complete a BS anytime only need a few more classes. One issue is cost. Another time and to finish will cost a lot of money and I'm not working! I need a job but am running into a constant stream of rejection letters. I am high energy, work hard and am very productive. I have a positive attitude but none of it seems to matter. I have a lot to offer and haven't stopped designing and building my own equipment since the late 1960's.

So what I'm hearing is to go the Quality Route. Done some of that. Pretty easy stuff as I recall. What is required from an industrial viewpoint? What qualifications are they looking for? Six sigma? ASQC? After 15 months of looking the frustration is becoming overwhelming. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

RE: can't find a job

If you can document that they "wanted someone younger" Bingo - you just hit the jackpot.

Call your lawyer!!

RE: can't find a job

Easier said than done Mike. It will end up being his word against mine. But, he did say right to my face "I was hoping for someone younger that would grow with the company". What a dolt! That was November 9th 2011. The time limit to file a complaint may have elapsed.

RE: can't find a job

You might also consider project manager positions.

RE: can't find a job

Seems like you're doing well; there are sob stories galore with guys spewing out dozens of resumes and not even getting so much as a phone interview.

Your background seems to be well suited for systems engineering, given that you must know at least some amount of physics and EE. You're from about the same generation as me, and the traditional route for math majors was programming. while you probably haven't done enough programming for a standard CS job, creating mathmematical models and algorithms for a small engineering group might also be a good fit.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: can't find a job

IRstuff, I've applied for well over 100 positions. Average a dozen or two a week! It's tedious but I won't give up just because it's difficult. Had about 27 phone interviews and maybe 12 in person. Still no job though. The last one told me I was over qualified? What a load of crap! What the heck does that mean? That there's some upper limit of experience? That "your so good we hired someone less qualified?" How am I supposed to become less qualified? What it really is is my age. Sooner of later I'll find a place that doesn't care about how old I am but does care about what I can do.

RE: can't find a job

"Overqualified" tends to mean something different, i.e., they think they can't afford what they think you'd want for a salary.

It's generally frowned upon, but one way out of that is to state what your salary goal is, bearing in mind that you will be starting as a new engineer.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: can't find a job

It's a tough time to graduate with an engineering degree in the states to begin with. I graduated in spring 09 and it took me until December 2010 to get my first gig (a tentative hourly spot as an estimator at a company my friend worked at). It was far better than making sandwiches and delivering pizza, but it took a lot of fighting and hard work to get to Design Engineer.

The first two years are hard to get, and will take a lot of ass kissing and string pulling to get access too. With a background like yours and the "protected sector" thing that everyone's been talking about... i'd push military contractor (unless you have a background that would prevent that). The money is good and they are constantly being scrutinized, mom-and-pop engineering shops will probably constantly be a shut-down (they want people they can trick into working for just about nothing) and the bigger engineering firms always can pull the "more qualified applicant" card (seeing that a single posting might get 5000+ resume's).

Good luck and welcome to the recession.

RE: can't find a job

Thanks guys. IRstuff, I did state my salary expectations as part of the application. They had that and it was low. I just want to get started. I'll solder wires if that's what it takes to get started but I can't even get that. Geez. jmcoope3, 5000+resumes? Are you serious? For one engineering job? Where did you hear this? A reliable source? That is terrible if true.

RE: can't find a job

Saw this and thought about this post....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2012/08...

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”

Perception is reality: Your reality is how others perceive you, not how you think of yourself.

RE: can't find a job

Thanks for the input. Perception is perception and is often incorrect. Speaks to the shallow society we current exist in. I'm not a quitter and will persist until I succeed. It's just a bit more difficult this time around.

RE: can't find a job

It is shallow but I don't think that's it as much as it is perhaps the economy. A friend said we're in a depression, which I agree with. He's a business owner with a Ph.D. in ChemE so he knows a few things. Companies seem to be window shopping more than anything else.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: can't find a job

By economic measures (think BLS) it's not a depression but by every other metric it is. Without all our safety nets and the BLS statistical adjustments to employment data we most certainly are in a depression. And it's worldwide. Even China is slowing down. Despite all that I'm bucking even an internship would be welcome. At my age does it even pay for me to finish a BSEE? I could just do an MSEE and skip over the BSEE. Does any of this matter? Who's going to hire a 62 year old, no experience engineer? I have two years experience working at an EET and that was in the mid 70's. My guess is that doesn't help. Perhaps I should have pursued QE but I am more interested in EE.
And if I did pursue QE what way do I do this. Time is of the essence. ASQC certification? Six sigma? I have no idea.
Any further thoughts would be welcomed. Thanks.

RE: can't find a job

I don't doubt that your resume is often discarded due to the age and/or experience.

In my opinion, over-qualified is a thing, and its not the same as too expensive or too old. If we're looking for someone at the entry level to handle rudimentary engineering tasks and receive resumes for PhDs with decades of experience at a much higher level, it is fair to doubt how well of a fit they are for the job.

On the other hand, ageism happens, and its not fair. Neither is life.

A piece of advice, which could help in either situation, and maybe you've already tried. Take your resume and re-write it like a young college grad, going back a few years at most. No mention of BS/MS from years ago or decades of experience.

When you get a call off that resume, and they ask about what you did "before", or your age, or change of careers (they will), take the opportunity to express your real desire to work in your new field, and your obvious enthusiasm for it. Don't bother being defensive about your age, spin in like a politician!

RE: can't find a job

There were overqualified PhDs driving cabs in the recession after Vietnam.

Generally, when I see an applicant with way more qualifications, my concerns are:
> will they bolt because the salary is so disproportionate to their qualifications and previous salary?
> will they bolt the instant they find a more suitable job that fits their qualifications?
> will they be bored by such light demands that they'll bolt just to save their sanity?
> will they willingly take direction from a much younger manager?
> will they adhere to the policies and regulations of THIS company?
> will they stand to slog through the ranks like all the other newbie engineers?

Anything beyond that is really irrelevant; the notion of "growing with the company" is ludicrous in the ear where people are sloughed off like dead skin from a lizard.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: can't find a job

Whether or not a BS will pay off depends on how long you intend to work. Everything isn't ROI, since we only have one day at a time anyway. We plan for the future but we all have one day at a time. If you have the time and money, do it, if that makes you happy.

Have you applied at a community college to teach courses? Or work on campus? What about doing technical work for a chain of grocers, hoteliers, ski resorts, etc.?

Not that you lack wisdom but I've talked to many engineers that wanted to work in a certain aspect of their field but never could quite get there. I don't know if Deming was in that group but he was an EE that went to quality.

Quality work is interesting and a much different view than technician level work. Six Sigma used to be the route to QE but that may be passé now. It isn't discussed much these days. You may be able to blow through all the tests to get your certifications. It still would probably open doors before many other things would.

The feds have changed so many definitions over the years, we probably don't know the full truth, comparatively, to years past. That always chapped my graduate advisor to no end. BLS definitions have changed over the years, too. There are a lot of people looking for work and cannot find anything. There are quite a few that have stopped looking and UI ran out years ago for them.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: can't find a job

What about working in Metrology? Seems like it might fit your background a bit.

RE: can't find a job

The tick had a good idea about going into QA/QC. There is a currently a fairly high demand for this at power utilities. Your background seems perfect. If you are willing to travel all over the world something like 75% of the time, I can't see why you could not get a job. For this you should expect to be paid more or less on par with others doing the same work. A low ball salary on your resume would make you seem questionable. Once you are in with a utility, and you really wanted to get your BSEE, take a cut in pay, and work as an entry level EE, you might be able to make the change.

RE: can't find a job

PFF:

Although no one woild ever admit it to my face, for obvious reasons, I ran into the same situation many times in the 42 months I was looking for employment. It was a long hard haul and I feel for you.

I finally had to walk the resume into the firm, get an immediate interview, and went on from there as a contract engineer for the firm. Been there almost four months now, and they are very happy that I am around. Experience does help, particularly in dealing with older jobs - 30 to 40 years old or more. You might consider this approach at your age, and I am older than you by a few years. I strongly believe that firms are more willing to hire us as contract workers rather than employees.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: can't find a job

PFF: you may have ten good solid working years in you yet, but it will be tough to convince any employer to hire you and take that chance. Why would they? What's in it for them? Why would they select you rather than a fresh grad, given that you have no work experience in your chosen field?

You need to take another route: create your own job, or volunteer and get work experience that way. You can keep looking for a job and maybe you'll be able to find one, with a small company who are willing to overlook your lack of direct work experience in exchange for your maturity and commitment- but I seriously doubt it given the current job market.

Best of luck to you.

RE: can't find a job

I always say that it takes 20 years to make an engineer, 4 university, 4 to get a PE or P.Eng and the next 12 to get good at your field of specialization.

Since the OP has the degree that would make him 75 before he is a fully qualified and experienced engineer. Even if we give him some credit for life experience and maturity he will still be past retirement age before he starts to really earn his keep.

Sorry but I’d be leery of hiring him as well.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

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