thread1010-196134: How to pronounce "wythe"
In an older post the word wythe was touted to be prounounced as "with"; however, the surname Wythe is correctly pronounced to rhyme with the word "scythe" or the surname "Blythe". Confusion arises from the southern variant of the last name of George Wythe as "with" and the town of Wytheville and "Withville". This is not to be confused with the wythe (remember - it rhymes with scythe). So, the bottom line is that people may argue until they are blue in the face that the word wythe is pronounced with but they are not correct - they are just aping a southern variant of the surname Wythe (which is truly pronounced to rhyme with the word scythe). How can I be so sure? 1.) I married Diana Wythe, a descendant of Nicolas Wythe b. abt 1600 in Saxtead, Eng. and 2.) we visited there a few years ago and the locals and a genealogist from Ipswich said that the word wythe rhymes with scythe and the surname Blythe, and 3.) it's an English root word and that's how they say it. Subject closed.

Sorry, not closed. Names are pronounced the way the family prefers, and George Wythe pronounced his name with a short "i", thus the pronunciation of the town Wytheville in southwest Virginia. I would agree that the masonry term "wythe" can be pronounced with a long "i", but that does not make it rhyme with "scythe" which also is pronounced with a long "i", but not the same. As for the surname Blythe, the family I know by the name pronounces it like "Bligh", and it is their name, so who is to argue.

I agree with hokie66.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

OK we can agree to disagree; but, just becasue people in Wytheville say "Withville" it does not make them correct. If your last name was Gilbert would you say Gill-burt is correct or would you use the French root word "Gill - bear" to be correct?

No one is alive today that can say with 100% certainty that George Wythe pronounced his name as "With"; we only have conjecture and a history of southern usage.

The root name is Wythe - I suppose that you would argue that the Brits in Saxtead are wrong. Go to England, visit Saxtead, and ask them; it's not my opinion - it's the way the British have pronounced the name for over 400 years. Go argue with them - don't kill the messenger!

The internet is "factoid" based. You need to go to the root source, like we did, to get to the bottom of this. I get the feeling that no matter what I do, unless you go to England and hear it for yourself, you will argue "until Hell freezes over" that the southern US version of "With" is correct. It's like arguing about religion - if you believe it's true, then it must be! I am surprised that on a science based web site that you are not willing to search for the root of the word and instead rely on a colloquial usage of the surname Wythe.

Consider a paradigm shift; If I could prove to you that I am correct, would you be a propoonent of Wythe or just trudge along with your head in the sand saying "with, with, with....".

BTW, are either of you Wythe descendants or are you just defending Colonial Williamsburg's usage of the pronunciation of Wythe? I am guessing that you are both, indeed, from that area - or have relaives there. My wifes' (Diana Wythe) family - all of them, say Wythe, not "With".

What is your source? Are you an etmologist, or a Wythe living in the USA or England or is this just an emotional reaction to something you have been told all of your life?

Please, I don't want to be the person who says, "there's no God!", I'm just trying to correct this one error on the pronunciation of the word wythe and by association the surname Wythe.

When you were young, did you believe in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus? And, when you found out that people were lying to you - how did you feel? It's the same logic in this case. God, no body wants to change. This is more like a bar fight than a discourse on how to pronounce the word wythe. Again, if you have "root cause, fact based" data for insisting on "with" vs. Wythe, please share with us. I am sure that the thousands of Wythe family members in the UK and the USA are willing to change :^ )

gatotten - I am defending my family usage of our pronunciation of my last name Dreger.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

I am guessing that you are using "Dray - ger" from the spellings of Draaisma, Dreger, Dreher, Dreier, Dreigher, Drejer, Draijer, Draayer, and Treher, deriving either from the pre 7th century 'drei' meaning three, or from the word 'draey', meaning 'to turn', possibly occupational for a maker of 'turned' objects such as eatung utensils or furniture. The surname is from Germany, The Netherlands, and Denmark, and is also Ashkenasic. Ulrich Dreger, an ironworker or blacksmith of Zell am Andelbach, in 1391, and later Othmar Deher, given as being a citizen of Friedingen, Germany, in the year 1545.

Only you can be the expert on your own last name. Good luck!

==> If your last name was Gilbert would you say Gill-burt is correct or would you use the French root word "Gill - bear" to be correct?
If it's your name, you can pronounce it any damn way you please. It's a proper noun. It's your name, and you get to decide. You can cite any etymology you wish, and that's all fine and good; but that doesn't dictate how a person must pronounce their name. If Mary Wythe wants her name said with a hard 'i', then that's the correct pronunciation of HER name. If Jane Wythe wants her name said with a soft 'i', then that's the correct pronunciation of her name. It's their name; they get to decide how it's said. And they're both correct.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

The pronunciation of a given English word, as practiced in a particular English city, is not in any way proof of correctness. The language has evolved in England as much as in any other country.

A bit more on the surname "Wythe". But back to the original post, do we know that the masonry term was derived from the surname or does it have a different origin?
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Wythe

I agree with other posters - the "correct" way to pronounce any place name or surname is as the local residents / families pronounce it - regardless of how irrational that may seem to the rest of us.

Some examples which I have come across:

In North Queensland, there are two cities named Cairns and Mackay. To pretty well everyone in the English-speaking world, "cairns" is pronounced to rhyme with "air", but north Queenslanders pronounce the town name to (almost) sound like "cans".

Mackay is originally a Scottish surname, and is pronounced by Scots as "mack-eye", but local residents pronounce the town name as "mack-kay" (even though the person for whom the town is named was a Scot who pronounced his own surname "mack-eye"). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackay,_Queensland

And the best of all: in Britain, there is a famous family surname "Cholmondeley-Featherstonehaugh" which is pronounced "Chumley-Fanshaw"!

http://julianh72.blogspot.com

Just in case any of you want to know "How to Talk Virginian".
http://cohp.org/va/notes/placenames_pronunciation....
Note that the author supports short "i" spelling for the town Wythewille, and the long "i" for the county Wythe. Go figure.

Julian, when I lived in Mackay, I think the pronunciation was about 50-50. Maybe it was because so many of us were come-heres.

As I stated earlier, I would like a discourse on the use of wythe (or the surname) - not a bar fight. Hell, if there ain't no beer it ain't worth arguing over. Did you get your deer yet? :^ ) (ref. the Einstein joke!).

You posit that that there is no correct way to pronounce words? WTF (water treatment fac....uhhh yeah that's the ticket) I asked for FACT based discussion not a rant. One of my sons is a Comp. Sci. major and a programmer. There must be something in the CS program that causes expression of the MAO-A gene (warrrior gene) when someone disagrees with CS majors.

btw, r u a wythe or a ner rel of 1 or r u just pontificating? ur an Eng-Tips FF and have logged in 9,397 times, were all of your discussions defensive? This is not personal: Hell I don't even know you - it's just a discussion, nothing more.

Me? No, not a Wythe, but I am originally from Virginia, but not near Wytheville. I learned about George Wythe from Miss Shaw, my high school history teacher. As to defensive, some might consider me offensive.

@hokie66:

My observation is that pretty well everyone in the Mackay region who is a second generation family or older used to say "mack-kay"; pretty well everyone who is a "recent" arrival says "mack-eye", and I suspect the "mack-kay" pronunciation will be pretty much "extinct" within another generation, since "new arrivals" now outnumber "second generation" families in the region.

On a similar note: is Newcastle "correctly" pronounced "new-cass-ell" or "new-carse-ell"?

http://julianh72.blogspot.com

==> You posit that that there is no correct way to pronounce words?
The point is that standard pronunciation rules do not apply to proper nouns.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

How do you all pronounce Smythe?

--
JHG

Ahh the old proscriptive versus descriptive arguement rears it's ugly head again. While I hold mildly to a proscriptive grammer, and accept only some change as the natural evolution of language, I reject all proscriptivism concerning pronunciation. Things are pronounced how the people who use those things pronounce them. Stephen Colbert can pronounce his name col-bert or col-bear and he made the concious choice of the second. Regardless of how different families pronouce their names, which they are free to do, if wythe is a masonry term then its pronunciation should be based on how masons pronounce it. If two different groups of masons use two different produnciations, then both are valid and we call them regional variations. Remember the point of language is communication, if that can be accomplised what's the arguement?

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

Oh and there are tricks to backout historical pronounciation by using rhyming poetry to describe how words were pronounced. (prior to recorded history? ) I've heard that this is the basis for evidence that the appalachian dialect most closely resembles the way people spoke at some specific place/time, I think during Shakespere's day if I recall correctly.

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

For a language forum, this one has gone to hell. In a thread about pronunciation, the OP misspelled/misspelt it. Now Kirby misspells Shakespeare.[bigsmile]

*thwack* <--- Sound of me slapping my forehead.

I apologize for the error, though in my defence he spelled it wrong too .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_of_Shakespea...'s_name

-Kirby

p.s. Looking at the preview it looks like the link is incomplete, ignoring everthing begining with the apostrophy, but I'm sure you can get where I'm point to.

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

FYI....back to wythe: I just got an email from someone who has also been to England. Here is his quote about the surname Wythe.

"I was at the College of Arms in London about 20 years ago and I asked the gentleman there what the proper pronunciation of the name would be. He said "Wyyyyythh" very long drawn out rhyming with "scythe". I told him that some in America pronounced it "With" he said, in a very proper accent, "Why on earth would they do that?" :^?

from the classic "Young Frankenstein":

Igor: Dr. Frankenstein...
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: "Fronkensteen."
Igor: You're putting me on.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No, it's pronounced "Fronkensteen."
Igor: Do you also say "Froaderick"?
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No... "Frederick."
Igor: Well, why isn't it "Froaderick Fronkensteen"?
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: It isn't; it's "Frederick Fronkensteen."
Igor: I see.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: You must be Igor.
[He pronounces it ee-gor]
Igor: No, it's pronounced "eye-gor."
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: But they told me it was "ee-gor."
Igor: Well, they were wrong then, weren't they?

I've given up correcting people on pronounciation of my last name; I give a psuedonym when booking restaurants - much easier on the host/hostess

Canadian guitarist Randy Bachman from the group BTO used to say he had two last names - pronounced 'bach'man in Canada and 'back'man in the US

Quote (truckandbus)

I give a psuedonym when booking restaurants - much easier on the host/hostess

They have trouble with "Bus" ?

it's pronounced 'boos'

But of course, "bus" is an abbreviation of "omnibus"! (Or is that pronounced "omniboose"?)

http://julianh72.blogspot.com

with the plural being 'omnibeese'

It is difficult to rationalize the pronunciation of names especially now that non-traditional/non-phonetic spellings are becoming popular

Well, here I am in jolly Old England, where an area of Manchester called Wythenshawe is pronounced with the y as i.

A local village near Durham is called Witton Gilbert - with the Gilbert being pronounced by the locals in the French manner (due to the French Huguenots settling there in the late 16th century).

We also have in Northumberland the original Bellingham, where the g is soft (as in "orange" - unlike the one in Washington state.)

And of course, Newcastle upon Tyne (UK) is pronounced "Toon" by the indigenous population!!

H

www.tynevalleyplastics.co.uk

Got nothing to say? - say it on Facebook®

truckandbus,

I went to school with a guy whose last name was Dalziel. Try pronouncing that correctly.

--
JHG

Quote (drawoh)

last name was Dalziel

I used to work with a guy who had it as a forename. (West Midlands - so called "Black Country"). Not uncommon either.

Used to be a detective series on UK tv called "Dalziel and Pascoe".

And yes, I know how to pronounce it!!

H

www.tynevalleyplastics.co.uk

Got nothing to say? - say it on Facebook®

The name Dalziel must be Scotish, with a substituted "z" for the yogh from middle english. It's probably pronounced Dee-el, at least in the UK. Phonetically, how did your friend, Dalziel, pronounce his name?

Quote (gattoten)

Dalziel, pronounce his name?

Dally-el

www.tynevalleyplastics.co.uk

Got nothing to say? - say it on Facebook®

My last name is Weigel. Nobody ever says it right (It's Wye-gull). I had a really hard time in grade school with the fun way to say it, especially after some company introduced a competitor to Jell-O brand gelatin. They named it Mr. Wiggle. I begged my dad to move us to Africa or something, so I could have some peace of mind.

I'm in line with KirbyWan on this subject. It brings to mind an old George Carlin piece:

Clerk: What's your name?
Carlin: Smith
Clerk: And how do you spell it?
Carlin: C-A-R-L-I-N, but all the letters are silent and it's pronounced "Smith."

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

I suspect the similarities between any current pronunciation bear so little resemblance to that of hundreds of years ago that the distinction is probably meaningless, but I've heard it argued that the Boston accent is probably closer to the old London accent than the current London accent.

Growing up in New England, which shares many common place names and prounciations with England, I know that guessing at pronunciations based on other or similar uses can lead to knowing smiles from locals, Worcester being a good example.

The width of the wythe isn’t wythout any question since so many of the products that make up various wythes are of funny wydths. Otherwyse, why would an 8" conc. blk. actually measure 7 & 5/8ths, and the lengths and hyths aren’t any gooder.

And that varies as well. A wythe of brick in Australia is typically 110 mm, while a 200 block is really 190. Wydth, that is.

I once heard about an African American woman naming her daughter La-a, to be pronounced Ladasha because, in her words, "the dash ain't silent".

NX 7.5.5.4 with Teamcenter 8 on win7 64
Intel Xeon @3.2GHz
8GB RAM
Nvidia Quadro 2000

The "Le-a" is listed as "Undetermined" on Snopes.com. As a denizen of Louisiana, I am constantly bemused by the innovation in naming that goes on down here.

Almost equally amusing is the butchering that is done where English language meets the spelling and pronunciation of Cajun (French origin) names. For example, "Hebert" is a common Cajun surname. Cajuns pronounce it "aye-BEAR", but it is commonly mis-pronounced "HEE-bert". "Richard" is Cajunized to "ree-SHARD", etc.

The local newspaper reports births every week in a column, and a few years ago one little girl started out her life as D'Nhyarinaie Da'Macaie Kty'Legene. It's a matter of public record. Kind of makes Le-a look tame, doesn't it?

old field guy