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Mechanical Reverse Engineering
18

Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Mechanical Reverse Engineering

(OP)
This is more of an OPINION thread than a question. I am posting it because I always get excellent comments here.

If you were asked to "REVERSE ENGINEER" something, what would that mean to you?

I've dealt with several engineering companies during my work experiece, and this is the first I had to get into "reverse engineering", so looking for opinions.

Thanks again in advance.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

At the simplest level, copy the dimensions and materials of a part or system. That is rather common.

Rather more entertaining is when your prototype exhibits a certain characteristic and your competitor's does not. Then you try to reverse engineer their solution. As an example of that, the accepted wisdom was that to improve isolation in a car you should stiffen the structure, and soften the isolators.

Cursory examination of a competitor's car showed that they could not possibly be doing this, yet their noise performance was pretty good.

So we did an experiment comparing our strategy, their strategy, and a few other things, and learned a great deal.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

I used to work in a shop that made marine exhaust risers, which appear to be a very simple product. They are not really simple at all.

The primary objective of my job was to make our product work better. I learned a lot by examining and testing competitors' products that we were replacing, conducting similar tests on our own products, and doing comparative anatomy.

I kept a huge spreadsheet that carried a rough math model of every part we built, and another spreadsheet with test data from every sea trial we conducted, of ours or anyone else's stuff.

I was continually refining the math model spreadsheet, and it eventually got good enough to accurately predict the performance of our product, so the tool got better, and by making incremental changes and measuring the results, our product got better, and our process got better.



Then I was replaced by an id10t, but that's another story.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Reverse engineering, in its purest form, is about figuring out how something was "engineered," i.e., it's not only knowing the physical characteristics and form, but also why certain things were done the way they were. The latter is the most difficult and often fruitless endeavors, since it's often the case that we wind up throwing up our hands and conceding utter lack of understanding of why something was done.

TTFN
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RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Hi,

If you don’t have drawings of a part, but have a physical component and would like to make improvements, then RE is the best approach.

To quote an example, several years back I had worked on a project for an automobile company. Their engine block had vibration problems. They did not have the drawings or CAD model to conduct the FE analysis as the castings were very old. So we had to digitally scan the physical part and generated new CAD models. Complete FEA was done on the CAD model, the problem was identified and the casting was modified to address the issue.

Hopefully, below links should help.

http://www.npd-solutions.com/reoverview.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering

Thanks

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Designmr:
Reverse engineering is pretty common in many engineering endeavors. There isn’t much sense in wasting the time to reinvent the wheel each time you want a round, rolling, weight supporting thingy. Of course, you do have to be careful of patent infringement in the process. In point of fact, much of what we do has been done before, with minor variations. You know, a shaft is a shaft, a simple beam is a simple beam. Many times the effort is to make it better, less expensively, stronger, less fracture critical, etc. And, there are also plenty of times when someone’s idea is out-n-out stolen, with insignificant variations, just to be able to say it’s a new idea, I’m not stealing your idea. And, you and your company have to weigh the ethics of doing that, from case to case.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Ask the Chinese engineers. They are engaged in doing this every day. Simply said,reproduce the competition's part including dimensions,material properties and packaging.

_____________________________________
"It's better to die standing than live your whole life on the knees" by Peter Mayle in his book A Good Year

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

I think reverse engineering means different things depending on the industry you're in. I take it as taking something apart, usually a competitors product, figuring out:
how does it work
why does it work
did they meet all the standards and regulations
why did the other guys design it this way

You do learn a lot during the process, and sometimes discover that your way is the best approach, or their way doesn't work with your processes. The results of reverse engineering can go to improve your own design "best practices", to being used as ammunition for your sales force to talk up your products and/or talk down the competitions.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

I do this on almost a daily basis, to reverse engineer a part. Typically my clients have the need to get around a patent and therefore, need a second solution to a particular design in order to enter the market. My engineering practice is not limited to only getting a competitor's product, taking it apart, copying the components, putting it back together and manufacturing a copy that is equal to the first. It also necessitates having an understanding of patent law, the industrial process and framing the limitations of a particular design.

Not only China reverse engineer. Japan undertakes this same practice in order to miniaturize, improve upon, or forward a particular technology as an improvement. So it is an evolutionary endeavor. I point out that South Africa also did this in order to circumvent international laws on armaments, as did certain European countries during the 30's. There are other examples.

Reverse engineering is the black art. It can be a bad thing, but typically as an academic exercise, a good thing for the economy. Or so I believe.

Regards,
Cockroach

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

In my experience, the term "reverse engineer" is something you usually hear from non-engineers who think "all you gotta do" to duplicate some complex mechanism is measure all the parts and "draw it up". Sounds simple, huh? Well you can measure something all day long but that doesn't tell you what the required precision is in the original design. Or the dimensional or geometric tolerances. It can't tell you what the exact material is, or any heat treatment, or the precise finishes, or fits and clearances. But then I guess that stuff isn't really important.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

One of the pitfalls in reverse engineering is that you might also reverse engineer a competitor's mistakes useless artifacts.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Down to the chcmical analysis of the material and the production process that produced the material. All to answer the question "How did they do that?"

Thomas J. Walz
Carbide Processors, Inc.
www.carbideprocessors.com

Good engineering starts with a Grainger Catalog.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

(OP)
Always great replies, thank all.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

I think some confuse "reverse engineering" with "copying." The Chinese products are currently "copying," wherein they duplicate a product, warts and all. The Japanese "reverse engineered" back in the 60s and 70s; they then built upon that foundation and improved and enhanced their products. The Soviets "reverse engineered" Intel 8080 processor in their MiG-25s, wherein they had to design a substitute microcode memory because their semiconductor processing couldn't manage process the Intel microcode, as-is.

It's the "why did he do that," and "why he didn't do this," that spells the difference between reverse engineering and copying.

TTFN
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RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

2

Quote (TheTick)

One of the pitfalls in reverse engineering is that you might also reverse engineer a competitor's mistakes useless artifacts.
Truth, and it's hilarious when it happens. Another name for this phenomenon: "ham-butt problem," after an amusing anecdote:

A mother is preparing a ham for a family dinner, and cuts off the butt of the ham as she always does. Before she throws it out, she realizes she doesn't actually know the purpose of removing the ham butt; she just learned it from her mother. She phones her mother to ask why. "Why, I never really thought about it. My mother always did it..." She then calls the grandmother and asks, and is answered with a laugh. "Well, dear, I had such a tiny pan..."

Also a danger: missing crucial details. Torakusu Yamaha brilliantly copied the components of an organ and produced his own "working" model...with horrific intonation. It wasn't until he learned music theory and tuning that he was able to start producing quality instruments.

"Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." -Scott Adams

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Seems to be several angles on this. My take is take a prototype, or a rev 0 print. Cobble, raunch, hack, adjust, challenge, then once you have it just about as good as you can get it (Cost / quality / time). Then make it and have the drawing made up to reflect the final part.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

2
To answer the original question my understanding of reverse engineering is you take a product and produce a design from it rather than taking a design and producing a product from it.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

...minus any patented features you may be infringing upon.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

I am not sure the definition of reverse engineering, or my understanding of it, has anything to do with it is legal or not.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Speaking of duplicating worts; I worked at a microprocessor company, and we worked on a prototype processor. A bunch of the original designers left the company before we completed the debugging; so their CMOS version of the processor came out about 6 months after we completed the debug, and the exact same signal was inverted on both chips. The only sad part about the whole affair is that it was a military standard instruction set architecture, and was OBE by processors like the 80386.

TTFN
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RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

At one company, we purchased a competitors product to reverse engineer it to see how badly they infringed on our patents. It didn't take long for use to discover they had copied our product down to the smallest detail, many of which were defunct or for optional accessories. There were holes that were drilled or tapped, and the offending company could not give answers as to why those features were there. It seemed the only thing they changed was the type of expended metal mesh and the overall paint color.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Our standard Ts&Cs grant us user rights in the design of most of the materiel we buy - that is, if the original supplier is unable or unwilling to supply us with spares at some future date, we have the right to get somebody else to make them for us.

If the original supplier is no longer around or pretends to have lost the drawings, this leads - legally - to reverse engineering at the level of simple copying.

A.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

As a design engineer, I would consider someone asking me to simply "reverse engineer" a product as an insult to my professional capabilities. Instead, I'd prefer that they ask me to engineer an improved version of the product.

When it comes to reverse engineering, most people fail to appreciate the huge amount of engineering work that goes into manufacturing a product, which may not be readily apparent.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

If the person writing the check thinks that >simply "reverse engineer"< means 'copy', I'll do it happily. ... assuming the check clears.

I probably won't bother to explain that properly engineering a product from scratch is hugely expensive. ... because asking for a copy suggests that the money man already understands Terry's point about that.

I will point out that a copy operation will most likely result in hard feelings, litigation, and a product that is merely 'competitive',

whereas, for more than the cost of a copy, but less than the cost of 'from scratch', true reverse engineering should result in a superior product.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Those involved with "Made in China" do this all the time.

They take an existing part, copy it, and sell it.
This is big in the "replacement parts" industry.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

To me, the true meaning of "reverse engineer" is to analyze geometry to a level that would allow one to make a fresh set of dimensioned production prints including reasonable tolerances for the application. For machined/ground/turned parts this requires little special equipment, just time and understanding.

For stylized / freeform shapes, it's a set of good clean data in a data format suitable for further production without loss of function. It could be NURBS or polygon data.

In a few cases, the original design was parametric. I would not expect parametric data unless multiple instances of the parametric product are reverse engineered and parametricity was part of the requirements.

There are plenty of folks out there who "reverse engineer" parts and deliver something that does not get to the end goals I outlined above. Whenever the subject of reverse engineering something comes up I automatically push towards the subject of the outcome because everything in between depends on it.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Reverse engineering in my opinion could have as many definitions as we want. It depends upon who is doing it. It could be as similar to world class athletes watching the games of their competitors or it could be similar to not only copying the design but also "forgetting" to change the trademarks while doing so. It depends upon how you define your personal / work / competitive ethics and that ultimately shapes your attitude and approach towards reverse engineering.

Summarizing, it depends upon who is doing it and gravity of the situation making him / her to do it.

RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Reverse engineering, at its core, is a learning exercise. That, in itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. What you do with what you learn is where you can get into trouble. Just like learning 50 ways to kill someone. Unless you use what you learn, you ought not have an issue.

TTFN
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RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

Of course the danger with monkey see - monkey do reverse engineering is that you still may not have a satisfactory system

Case in point is one simple item that I could give you the drawing for and the material specs and the chances are 50/50 you would still end up destroying engines if you made them. The drawing is accurate, but without knowing important things about how it is made (documented elsewhere), you would be stuffed.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Mechanical Reverse Engineering

reverse engineering is to take the original design and use that as a platform for your design to add, subtract, multiple or divide certain or missing features from the original design.

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