Double billing
Double billing
(OP)
Sitting here on a 12 person international conference call that the client requires me to be on, while marking up drawings on another job got me thinking. Can I bill both clients for the same hour? I actively participate in the call, but when the conversation wanders or some of the meeting occurs in another lanquage, I continue my markups.
What do you guys think?
Of course that also brings up the question of when I'm on a plane. The client that required me to be on the plane is paying for my time there to get to his facility, but I can also work on other client's material while confined to that little seat.
I'm curious to see what you guys have to say...
What do you guys think?
Of course that also brings up the question of when I'm on a plane. The client that required me to be on the plane is paying for my time there to get to his facility, but I can also work on other client's material while confined to that little seat.
I'm curious to see what you guys have to say...
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RE: Double billing
If you were to bill fractional hours such that the total billed hours equals real hours spent, then that should be OK.
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RE: Double billing
When I'm on the plane, I wouldn't consider myself "producing." I'm getting paid to sit in an uncomfortable, cramped seat in a pressurized aluminum tube at 35,000 feet. If I'm going to inspect some field problem, I don't have anything to "produce" at that time. It would seem to be ethical that if I pulled out another client's work and "produced" something that I would charge that client and reduce the first client's hours by that amount. It would also seem fair that someone should be charged a premium for my discomfort of sitting between a snoring man and a coughing teenager, namely the first client...
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RE: Double billing
Paid travel time is a nice perk, and rare. Read a book. Watch a movie. Sleep.
If you work on another client's job while flying then the client you are flying for gets a break.
RE: Double billing
Let's look at time in the aluminium tube first. I charge all time away from home on a day rate (10 hour days) from the time I walk out my front door until I walk back in. When I get to where I'm going I always end up working more than 10 hours a day so I feel it all works out. If I have dead time (like in those cramped seats) I always ask myself "is there anything productive I can be doing for the client paying for the trip right now?" If there is, then I either relax or do it (i.e., I don't have a problem reading a novel on a plane, but if I'm going to work I preferentially work on stuff for the company paying for the trip). If I feel like working on a plane and there is nothing that the client paying for the trip would benefit from, then I have no problem working on billable hours for someone else. I'm not sure it really makes an ethical difference, but I always ask the question.
I spend a lot of time on tedious conference calls. Often people are talking in languages I don't understand and often the conversation drifts to parts of projects I'm not involved in. In that case I'll play Brickbreaker or Texas Hold 'em on my Blackberry to stay awake, but if I do something for another client I don't charge both clients for the same time. I'm not sure that it is really different than the travel scenario, but it feels like it is different to me. I just don't do it.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
RE: Double billing
Nonetheless, when someone pays for an hour of time, it's assumed that you're devoting that hour to the client. If you are multitasking, then you ought not and should not charge any single client for that entire time. As many of us might still recall, aerospace and defense timekeeping rules allow us to bill in increments of tenths of hours, so hypothetically, you can have 10 clients in a given hour, each one billed for 6 minutes of your time.
I don't understand why you think there should be any alternative to this at all. This is very fundamental ethical behavior question; you do not that charge multiple customers for the same product.
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RE: Double billing
RE: Double billing
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Double billing
Therefore, If it were me, I would charge a flat rate equivalent to, say, 10 hrs per day of domestic travel, as a "travel fee," rather than as billable work. This makes travel a binary proposition; no travel is zero dollars, any travel is, say, 1000 dollars.
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RE: Double billing
RE: Double billing
I'd worked for a company that had multiple clients in the same area, with different contract arrangements for each company. Our services were primarily hourly based, but there were minimum engagement fees and so on for the work. Some of the clients also paid an availability premium regardless of whether we actually worked the full duration or not.
I'd had multiple times where I'd had a call out for the first client (standard engagement including availability) and carried out the works required at short notice for them. Works were completed in half a day, with no further prospect of more work for that day. Second client calls, has a job that afternoon, with time based duration of about an hour.
Second client has a minimum callout amount of 1 day. Both clients got billed for services, first client for full day engagement as per availability (even though there was no more work to be done that day), second client gets billed for full day as per terms of contract and minimum call out.
Not quite ethically sound? Sure. Both clients were happy with the results and the services provided on the basis of their engagement.
If it were hourly rates based, I don't see that you can charge both clients at once.
I think zdas04 has a nice summary for it.
RE: Double billing
Let's say I'm sitting outside a courtroom waiting to testify. My client has asked me to be there for their benefit and they are paying me to do so. I might be called at any time, but I don't know how long my wait will be. In the interim, I'm reviewing documents for another client so that I don't get behind and compromise their "benefit" of my services. They also benefit from my review of the documents since that is one of the tasks I must perform for them. Both clients are receiving the benefit of my services.
Keep in mind that as engineers we are more likely to give away services to clients than overcharge them. There are phone calls, "Oh by the way" conversations, etc. that never get charged to the client.
Also, travel time is time. It should be billed as any other time. If a client is not willing to pay for my travel time, I don't work for them. Insurance companies are notorious for trying to pull this one.
Sometimes your billing practices just need to match the expectations of the client. Daily billing rates, flat rate trip charges, etc.....had an insurance company that didn't want to pay travel time, and mileage was only paid at a reduced rate. They had no problem paying a flat rate trip charge, that, interestingly enough was the compilation of estimated time and mileage....go figure!
RE: Double billing
That comes under the category "it is easier to have a policy than a decision". The trip charge fit into their policy, the T&M didn't. I get so sick of that mind set.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
RE: Double billing
...me too. I see it all too often. Corporate weenies with no balls.
Ron
RE: Double billing
Regards
Pat
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RE: Double billing
I like that! Thanks.
Ron
RE: Double billing
RE: Double billing
I find the flat rate travel charge interesting, though. From MintJulep's link and a few other posts, it appears that if I charged a flat travel fee, but then worked on the plane, I could charge for that hour to the other client.
Thanks for the info, guys...
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RE: Double billing
RE: Double billing
On a standard T&M, you are contracted to bill your time. If you had twenty four hours of travel and worked on another project the whole time, could you bill 48 hours for a single day? That doesn't pass the smell test.
However, there are many ways to structure contracts and there are several posts above that offer good information on how to bill effectively.
In the case of a simple travel charge in a contract, I see nothing wrong with working on another project that is T&M and billing both.
RE: Double billing
RE: Double billing
There was a story some years ago (when once upon a time I was married to a lawyer) where an attorney was sued by a client for doing just that. The client won an then the attorney was sanctioned by the state board.
I would say that if you do work for a client while traveling for a different job, the client you are traveling for should receive equal time at some other point in schedule.
I frequently do this while on the Ferry to a job on the Islands (I charge a flat fee for these all day trips). An island job is typically a 1-1/2 to 2 hour ferry ride. On the way to the site I often don't have a clear picture of the problem that triggered the trip, so I will work on something else, but I make sure that I provide equal time to the client who paid for the trip that evening or the following day.
LJ McGrew
Evergreen Engineering & Design, LLC
Everson, WA
www.evergreeneng.com
RE: Double billing
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Double billing
RE: Double billing
If you do not like 'being forced to do nothing', then you must ensure that you are not making your clients pay you to do nothing, ie, you should not charge for travel time. Your client is paying you to travel to their site. That's not 'doing nothing', but if you believe that it is, you should not be billing your clients for travelling, that would be unethical, billing them for 'doing nothing'.
RE: Double billing
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Double billing
RE: Double billing