×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
3

What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

(OP)
Does your firm have a standard policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Does everything have to be checked by somebody? Or do only certain things get checked? Does nothing get checked? I'm just curious what the norm is in the industry for quality assurance of design calculations.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

This is something that sticks somewhere in my throat. Where I work there are no policies and pretty much nothing gets checked. This is not by design but by the nature of how business is conducted. Everything seems to be hurry up, hurry up. Deadlines are much too soon and the cart is ahead of the horse. No geotech report, no problem, let us just guess on the permit set and fix it later etc... etc.... Now my mood is deteriorating LOL.

I wish things were checked and double checked. I know for a fact that errors are happening and I am just waiting for the one OH MY error to happen.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Where I work :

- The boss check if the result of the design make sense on the drawing ! (judging by experience !)

- Calculations are never checked except if the employee says scary things that would lead the boss to doubt the competence of the engineer...

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Check what?

Except for one office that I worked in, I have never had any type of QA/QC. Usually the fees and schedules do not allow for any kind of checking much less designing. This always worries me as I catch a bunch of mistakes while doing the calculations, so that probably means that I am missing just as many or more than I catch.

It is getting harder and harder to provide a good product for the fees that we are able to charge. Unfortunately, we do not have the marketing leverage to demand higher fees or the volume to work on only the jobs we want.

But I try to remain optimistic about the direction of the profession and that our clients we start to see us more as a beneficial professional service and less like a "necessary evil" engineering commodity.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

How does one check calculations if you are the only one creating the calculations?

I do some consulting work with other engineering companies. A few weeks ago I was blasted for taking to much time to review calculations and how other consultants are not as difficult as I am. I proceeded to find 2 simple mistakes in the attachment they sent over that made a huge world of difference in the design. Needless to say, they were quite embarrassed. hahahaha

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

I'm so busy catching my own mistakes, I don't have time to check on other people! [bigglasses]

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

We do "casual" checks. Lets say you have an 8' W8x10 beam carrying 1000 lbs. and braced. That is obviously OK. But say it is carrying 10,000 lbs and can't be braced. I am going to look at that very hard!!

So it sort of depends on what is going on!!

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Unless the client insists on seeing reviewed calculations (and pays us for them), we don't formally review them. However, all drawings are reviewed. Most of us have a pretty good idea of what works, so while we're reviewing the drawings, we run informal calculations to verify reinforcing and/or member sizes. If I see a 20 foot tall 8 inch CMU wall, with #5's verticals at 3'-4", I'm likely to run a number on that. If I see a 12 foor wall with #5's at 2'-0", I'm probably going to allow it. And if I see one mistake, I'm likely to review that type of component pretty tightly for the rrest of the project.
I've always considered reviewing calculations somewhat counter productive. It's so time consuming, that the end product (drawings) are slighted. Plus, it gets you caught up in the minutiae of the numbers, when you might miss a whopper of a mistake in the whole approach.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Yeah, my company doesn't really have any requirements at the moment, but if something's going out with my stamp or otherwise under my supervision, I'll review the drawings with an eye for strange things. I'll have one set of check prints where I'll scrawl all over it in red with math so that I have a record of whatever I've looked at. It'll just be sanity checks for most things. Check the longest span beam, unusual connections, a quick check of the lateral system and slenderness of braces. Basically, stuff that would make the structure unsafe, plus whatever else is unusual. I'll size things up in this kind of check sometimes, but won't normally size things down without a very large discrepancy and a discussion with the original engineer. I'll also have a discussion with whoever did the original work to ask conceptual questions and see if they checked everything I'd check. If I get any confused answers back, I'll normally have a harder look at things.

I prefer doing that over checking calculations, because you can't fall into the trap of being led by the other engineer's math. It can be easy to duplicate someone's mistakes when you're following their math. If they've come up with a neat concept, or something that you wouldn't normally catch they can explain it when you go and ask why some beam looks like it's sized incorrectly.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Strange. I haven't ever worked in an office where anything went out without checking. The only exception was when I was the only structural person in a group doing onsite design to modify a refinery. I spent a considerable time in the nuclear business, there we had to check off that we had checked the method, the inputs and the detailed calculation. Then it was peer reviewed.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

I have my own company so I check my own work. I put it down for a day or two and come back to it totally fresh. When I worked for big companies, pretty much no one checked anything. *sigh*

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Wow. The truth about the PE stamp comes out.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

20-30 years ago, when I was at a small firm, we checked everything. For the past few years I'm with an ISO certified firm - procedures, forms, QA police up the wazoo - nothing much gets checked in detail, As long as the form is filled out...banghead

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

In my company, the amount of checking of calculations depends on the senior engineer who is doing the drawing verification. All drawings are checked by the verifier after the drafting check has been completed (hopefully). The quality of the drawings often dictates how much calculation checking is required. When I am the verifier, I require that the calculations be included with the drawings. Even if I do little review of the calculations other than to insure readability, this forces the design engineer toward logical arrangement and filing.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

I started with a firm in 1956 who had a checking department. After nearly a year in the drafting department, I was assigned to the checking department for another six months before being entrusted to perform original calculations. No major job went out without a numerical check verified by the signature of the checker in the appropriate blank on the design notes.

That firm also had a format for structural design notes which was expected to be followed. If it wasn't followed, checking would have been much more difficult. I recall disliking the task of performing numerical checks on other engineers' design notes and I felt it was not the most effective way to avoid glaring errors in design. Nevertheless, a good many mistakes were caught and I would have to admit that it was somewhat effective.

In two subsequent firms, there was no checking department and everyone more or less followed his own preferences insofar as design notes were concerned. Some of those notes defied clarity or readability.

When I started my own firm, I was the only one doing structural design, so I reviewed my designs from the drawings, usually doing approximate calculations without reference to design notes, although this sometimes led to a more thorough review of my design notes.

Throughout my years as a structural engineer, I have used a format for design notes almost identical to the one I learned in those early days at my first job. The reason for that is that I thought it was a good format which facilitated finding the design of a particular element long after the work was done. By the way, that firm is still going strong although the original partners have died.





BA

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

(OP)
OK, sounds like there isn't a lot of checking occurring. That's kind of disheartening for a young engineer to hear. I can see how time constraints, tight budgets, competing deadlines etc. are constantly working against you, but I think some time should be aside for overall sanity checks, particularly from computer output.

I can understand that most major errors won't pass the sight test. You get suspicious when you a W12x19 beam spanning 40 feet or something like that. Even most steel fabricators will flag something like that. But it also seems like there are plenty of errors that go beyond what looks right, particularly in connection design or lateral design. It seems like you should at least be diligent about trying to check atypical design features and other things that aren't so obvious.

I would think the level of checking should also be commensurate with the magnitude of the project. You can probably eyeball the design of a single story wood structure in a few minutes to know whether or not it is safely designed. On the other hand, I would hope there is a rigorous amount of checking done to verify the design of a high-rise building or a long-span bridge.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

I worked in one office that checked calculations, and that process was a joke. Checker: "Here, look, I found that you forgot to add ## psf for [whatever] load." Engineer: "Look, I fixed it. See where I had ## psf too much in my superimposed dead load." LOL I don't think I ever saw anything productive coming out of that process.

Also, if the job is nontrivial, then there it is impractical to have someone go back through and check someone else's calculation notebook. To do that _well_ would take a good chunk of the time required for the calculations. The checker barely figures out what's going on by the time runs out for the checking process. For a trivial job, there's probably not enough fee to design it, much less bring someone else in to look at it also.

An experienced engineer must go over the drawings to see if the overall concept and sizes make sense. For example, if someone has designed a lot of composite floors, he should be able to look at a beam or girder size and tributary area and get within a few sizes without running one calculation. He can keep a big picture view while verifying all of the member sizes, without getting bogged down in whether the guy used 22 psf or 18 psf in his roof dead load, or picked this or that V off the wind map.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Check calculations? My boss hardly does calculations because he has been in it so long and already has his 'feel' for what works!

Yes, it's frustrating for a young guy which is why I am not satisfied with where I am. There is no way for me to learn to get to this level of 'feel' without first knowing that my long hand or computer analysis calculations are accurate.

As a company, we check drawings and specifications in detail but rarely take any time for calculations. Most of that is left up to the individual responsibility of the engineer.

I have gone to my boss and asked him to check my calculations a few times. He usually tosses my notes aside and does his own set of calcs (never more than a 1/2 page) and tells me either yes or no...sigh.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Pittguy - I can relate but I'm not sour about this as it has forced me to turn to textbooks, google, eng-tips, etc. to ensure my calculation and methods are sound. I think it forces you to really learn as opposed to someone showing you how to do it and you don't think beyond this. But I do agree, it can be very frustrating at times.

EIT
www.HowToEngineer.com

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

While I'm not surprised on what everyone is saying about checking (its the same experience at my office), something pittguy12 said got me thinking.

While it may be disheartning as a young engineer on your bosses 'feel' for structures, this is something that comes with time. I'm only five or so years into practice, but I found this feel, for me, was developed on my own time. I didn't have time during the 9 to 5 (or 8 to 6 In reality) to spend time getting a feel for things. Instead I got this on my own time, going over old lecture notes, creeping on this site, and doing my own sanity checks.

If a young engineer really wants to 'get' structures as a designer, unfortunately the time will have to be spent outside of work hours. With plug and chug, push a button, analysis programs and design sheets, the fees are no longer there for us to learn on the job. The old guys got to feel out their designs, collecting loads, using simplifications via hand methods. I really believe this was a better way to learn, but alas those days are long gone. It's quicker, faster, cheaper these days.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, or hate on pittguy's comments, but the discussion got me thinking about the ways the profession is changing. How much more can market forces squeeze out of our profession? At some point diminishing fees, and professional ethics need to come to a common point, but how we get there is a mystery to me.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

ahhhhh to be so young again and worry about such things......

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Bolt45:
Well..., you darn well better be right (correct). You and your company, and your clients can’t afford for you to be wrong, if you want to stay out of trouble. You better come up with a self checking system even if your office has a formal checking system. You can’t afford to be wrong too many times in your boss’ eye, and your office can’t be wrong as the plans go out for construction. Most insurers these days demand/insist on some sort of a QA program in a consulting office they are insuring. You would probably be surprised how much checking is going on when you are young or a new member in a firm. As you gain experience in their ways and methods and they gain trust in your work, you are expected to be self checking, pretty much. That anyone would check all of your calcs. is pretty impractical, time and productivity wise. But, if everything, calcs., details and engineering decisions you make turns up lemons you can be sure they will be checking your work, or finding someplace else for you to do your work.

It’s important to develop a mentor relationship with the people who check your work, so you can learn from them. No good boss should object to intelligent questions, and they should certainly be willing to explain, so you do learn. But, don’t expect them to hold your hand like a baby sitter, they are expecting you to become an equal. And, they do expect you to do some of this study and learning on your own. The same should hold true for the people who’s work you are checking at some point.

Hacksaw:
I think it is admirable that you had the gumption to do some of this extra work on your own time to improve yourself and your understanding of your profession. I think young people need much more of that attitude today. Unlike many of the questions here, where the answers would show up in the first few paragraphs of their text books on that subject, it is nice to see someone who doesn’t expect to be spoon fed. The older fellows here certainly did the same self study thing..., thinking I should have known that, after being called on something, or being amazed at my boss’ ability to see a problem area on the plans, a beam size error or poor connection detail. And, despite the lack of software 30, 40, 50 year ago the pace in the consulting office was no less hectic, we learned in doing as you suggested, and we were more intimately connected to the beam or column we were designing, vs. you guys and your software spitting out dozens of beams at a pop, none of which you’ve even calced. the moment on. But, we were expected to be productive right out of the chute, and to a good extent did our extra learning on our own time. I never read and underlined a new code for the first time, in the office. That took a few weeks of evenings at home, although that in itself has become a full time job these days.

What I think I’m seeing these days is that two thirds of the questions are about some dumb assed, over complicated, factor in a code equation, which nobody can explain; or some complexity in modeling in a program which has been elaborated to the point that it should do everything but blow your nose for you. And, no one understands what they are actually designing because they are so wrapped up in bldg. code and the program’s complexities. I don’t even know that we are turning out more work today. Certainly no better. We are certainly turning out more complex work, dealing with much more complex codes, which are supposed to substitute for engineering judgment and experience, save material, be a safer, more exact designs. And, we are doing this in a crazy hurried way which has bean counters saying we gotta get this building up and occupied so we can start make money off of it. Mill order the steel so we can get going, never mind you don’t have it designed yet, pour the foundations tomorrow, but don’t pour em bigger just cause you don’t know the loads yet, we’re trying to save money here. Oh... we’ll tell you in a few months what the bldg. is going to be used for as soon as we line up a buyer. And, we’ll take care of the rest in RFI’s. If this isn’t the tail wagging the dog, I don’t know what is.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

...and one week later bean counters will say : "..oh! we are now out of the market , because you've been wasting time !"

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Dhengr: Amen.

Bolt45 & Hacksaw: Be careful where you poke that sharp stick, you might get a reaction.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

I find the lack of checking very scary. Many a poor quality sealed design package has crossed my desk, and I have taken to explicitely requiring in RFPs that all calculations be prepared and checked by two different people and that the signed calculations be submitted. Then, during proposal evaluations, I always ask the proposers if they have included checking in their cost proposal. Still I get a lot of grousing about this.

The level of review I do on the submitted calculations varies. Sometimes I just verify that they have been checked. Other times I check every line, like when the calculations conclude that a piece of equipment needs to be downrated, or when lateral loads are involved. It is amazing how often I find major mistakes even in checked calculations, especially with the load path for laterally loads.

In bridge engineering, calculations are always checked. At least they were where ever I worked. I guess it's different with buildings. Yikes!

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Continuing this conversation, as some have intimated (including myself), this seems to be a architectural/engineering phenomena. Previous work of mine includes a lot of heavy lift and industrial. In those areas everything was checked by someone else with the ability and understanding of the job. I notice a lot of comments about "feel" certainly one get a feel for many designs after doing the job many times. However, the seat-of-the-pants type of work will not stand up in the court house. I can only imagine what the plaintiff's attorney would do to someone on the stand that said, "I designed it by feel".

So the question is, how do we fix this as a group and is it even possible at this point? Or do we just keep letting things go on as it is okay? In my opinion, this cheap charley, lowest bidder mentality has hurt the profession.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

The problem with designing by "feel" is that it's based on repetition and past experience which does not necessarily mean that it's correct. If I do something wrong once and it 'works', as in there are no catastrophes, then I'm likely to do it again. Over time this becomes my level of comfort and idea of a reasonable solution, even though it could be completely wrong. I've encountered this lots of times with the argument often reducing to 'I've done it this way for years'. Since most buildings never see design loads it is easy for this to go on without any consequence.

I'm not completely discounting feel, most of my work now is drawn first and checked second, but I think there's an argument to be made against simply dismissing bolt45's concerns by telling him that his bosses have a feel for what is correct.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Hacksaw...your comments to my post were right on and my particular situation has forced me to study a lot on my own outside of work to learn this thing. I also found that time spent studying for the PE and the SE exams also was invaluable to this same concept.

It's still frustrating to go to my boss with a question (usually, like it was mentioned based on one of those obscure factors or contradictory statements in a code) and have unable to help work through the answer as it should be. He usually pulls out a code from 20 years ago, when it was written more simply, and gives me that answer!

This is mostly where my frustration comes from. I know that the latest edition of codes need followed, no matter how long or ridiculous they have gotten. Yet, when the person who is supposed to be checking my calculations/design simply blows off anything that's too complex to understand...it's quite frustrating.

Anyway, good discussion and lots of good points all around.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Quote:

This is something that sticks somewhere in my throat. Where I work there are no policies and pretty much nothing gets checked. This is not by design but by the nature of how business is conducted. Everything seems to be hurry up, hurry up. Deadlines are much too soon and the cart is ahead of the horse. No geotech report, no problem, let us just guess on the permit set and fix it later etc... etc.... Now my mood is deteriorating LOL.

I wish things were checked and double checked. I know for a fact that errors are happening and I am just waiting for the one OH MY error to happen.

Pretty much sums it up.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Quote:

ahhhhh to be so young again and worry about such things......

Are you implying that worrying about design errors due to poor QA/QC policies is a naive concern?


Quote:

Well..., you darn well better be right (correct). You and your company, and your clients can’t afford for you to be wrong, if you want to stay out of trouble. You better come up with a self checking system even if your office has a formal checking system. You can’t afford to be wrong too many times in your boss’ eye, and your office can’t be wrong as the plans go out for construction.

You're assuming that you are given proper time for self-checking. Like fancypants said, often times you are struggling just to find time to get the calculations done the first time to meet an unrealistic deadline.


Quote:

You would probably be surprised how much checking is going on when you are young or a new member in a firm. As you gain experience in their ways and methods and they gain trust in your work, you are expected to be self checking, pretty much.

I understand that people will be checking over your work when you are green, even if that doesn't mean they ask you to submit your calculations. But even as you become a seasoned engineer, humans still make human errors despite experience.


Quote:

That anyone would check all of your calcs. is pretty impractical, time and productivity wise.

Are you saying there are no successful engineering firm that employ this type of practice? I worked at one where everything was supposed to be checked.


Quote:

It’s important to develop a mentor relationship with the people who check your work, so you can learn from them. No good boss should object to intelligent questions, and they should certainly be willing to explain, so you do learn. But, don’t expect them to hold your hand like a baby sitter, they are expecting you to become an equal. And, they do expect you to do some of this study and learning on your own. The same should hold true for the people who’s work you are checking at some point.

Hacksaw:
I think it is admirable that you had the gumption to do some of this extra work on your own time to improve yourself and your understanding of your profession. I think young people need much more of that attitude today. Unlike many of the questions here, where the answers would show up in the first few paragraphs of their text books on that subject, it is nice to see someone who doesn’t expect to be spoon fed. The older fellows here certainly did the same self study thing..., thinking I should have known that, after being called on something, or being amazed at my boss’ ability to see a problem area on the plans, a beam size error or poor connection detail. And, despite the lack of software 30, 40, 50 year ago the pace in the consulting office was no less hectic, we learned in doing as you suggested, and we were more intimately connected to the beam or column we were designing, vs. you guys and your software spitting out dozens of beams at a pop, none of which you’ve even calced. the moment on. But, we were expected to be productive right out of the chute, and to a good extent did our extra learning on our own time. I never read and underlined a new code for the first time, in the office. That took a few weeks of evenings at home, although that in itself has become a full time job these days.

What I think I’m seeing these days is that two thirds of the questions are about some dumb assed, over complicated, factor in a code equation, which nobody can explain; or some complexity in modeling in a program which has been elaborated to the point that it should do everything but blow your nose for you. And, no one understands what they are actually designing because they are so wrapped up in bldg. code and the program’s complexities. I don’t even know that we are turning out more work today. Certainly no better. We are certainly turning out more complex work, dealing with much more complex codes, which are supposed to substitute for engineering judgment and experience, save material, be a safer, more exact designs. And, we are doing this in a crazy hurried way which has bean counters saying we gotta get this building up and occupied so we can start make money off of it. Mill order the steel so we can get going, never mind you don’t have it designed yet, pour the foundations tomorrow, but don’t pour em bigger just cause you don’t know the loads yet, we’re trying to save money here. Oh... we’ll tell you in a few months what the bldg. is going to be used for as soon as we line up a buyer. And, we’ll take care of the rest in RFI’s. If this isn’t the tail wagging the dog, I don’t know what is.

I agree with all this, especially the part about young engineers needing to assume more responsibility for their own development. Employer's should make the effort to meet them halfway with professional development opportunities, though. Nowadays, the many webinars offered are pretty cheap and efficient of ways filling in the gaps.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

abusementpark,
"Are you implying that worrying about design errors due to poor QA/QC policies is a naive concern?"

Yes, worrying about this is a waste of time and energy. Rather than worry, start checking, start the ball rolling. however do I believe checking is an important part of the design chain? Yes it is the most important part.

however my response was directed at this line

"There is no way for me to learn to get to this level of 'feel' without first knowing that my long hand or computer analysis calculations are accurate"

This is a young's man view, someone else must give him a hand up for him to start performing.

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

"In bridge engineering, calculations are always checked. At least they were where ever I worked. "

It used to be true. Now, there's no budget for detailed checking and people don't seem to want to check numbers. They just want to "review" calculations. As long as the QA form is filled out.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

I have said this before and will say it again.........Structural engineering is an art, which can only be learned over time. Unfortunately for everyone, plugging and chugging numbers is what it has come down to. I had the privilege of working under a very senior engineer and got to learn the old school way of doing things. Although I am no longer with that firm, I really miss the ol' guy.

I think the responsibility of constantly asking questions, being curious and trying to understand the fundamentals behind a problem lies with the YOUNG ENGINEER. You should never be afraid to ask too many question, no matter how stupid they are.

I am still learning the ropes and rely on senior engineers, experienced hands wherever I find them........either in person or via these forums.

It’s no trick to get the answers when you have all the data. The trick is to get the answers when you only have half the data and half that is wrong and you don’t know which half - LORD KELVIN

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

The problem with the young engineer asking the senior engineer questions, is how are they supposed to know they got the right answer.

I have had a senior engineer tell me that there was no such thing as at-rest earth presure, I am happy in that instance that I questioned his expertise.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

In my small firm of 5 people (2 seniors, me, a new guy, and a extremely experienced drafter) things are checked on a need to check basis. What I mean by that is if I don't feel comfortable with my design, I have it checked with one of the senior designers. If they don't feel comfortable with their design then they will actually come to me for a 2nd opinion. And, of course, if the senior designer wants to check my work then he often does (because it's difficult/complex, critical, or because he has to understand it to continue the design).

In the 4.5 years I've been working here I've only once came back after one of my designs has been submitted and found a major error (thankfully in the conservative direction) and only once has anyone found one of our companies' designs to have a major error (which worked out fine in the end, make sure when you specify a cap channel that the drafter actually puts it on the drawings).

I think that there's nothing wrong with only self-checking your work or just making sure that it passes the "engineering judgement" test. However, if I worked for a firm and couldn't ask someone for a double check (wither it was required by the firm or not) and was told that we didn't have time for it I would get very nervous about the management of that firm.

Finally, in the end it's the PE's call wither he or she wants to check a design. If they feel comfortable with it and you feel comfortable with it then no further checks are required if you ask me.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural. Going to take the 1st part of the 16-hour SE test in October, wish me luck!

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

More food for thought in the form of a question. Why do every calculation pad and every drawing title block have a "Checked by" spot to fill out? This may not be true across the board however, it is true for all that I have ever seen.

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

Quote:

abusementpark,
"Are you implying that worrying about design errors due to poor QA/QC policies is a naive concern?"

Yes, worrying about this is a waste of time and energy. Rather than worry, start checking, start the ball rolling. however do I believe checking is an important part of the design chain? Yes it is the most important part.

It is not always easy for a young engineer to fit time in for checking, especially when there are likely several other projects vying for your attention. When your boss tells you it is going to be struggle to meet the deadline at the end of the week, he is going to want to see you working on that job when he comes in your office, not checking the previous job that was hastily completed.

Quote:

I have said this before and will say it again.........Structural engineering is an art, which can only be learned over time. Unfortunately for everyone, plugging and chugging numbers is what it has come down to. I had the privilege of working under a very senior engineer and got to learn the old school way of doing things. Although I am no longer with that firm, I really miss the ol' guy.

While there are plenty gray areas requiring the use of creative judgement, I still think the large majority of the profession involves crunching of numbers. A simple gravity column is either adequately sized or it isn't. Same thing with a simple beam. There is no "art". What exactly is it that you are bemoaning about plugging and chugging?

And what is "the old school way of doing things"?

Quote:

More food for thought in the form of a question. Why do every calculation pad and every drawing title block have a "Checked by" spot to fill out? This may not be true across the board however, it is true for all that I have ever seen.

I usually fill out those "checked by" blanks with either "LOL" or "HAH".

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

"It is not always easy for a young engineer to fit time in for checking, especially when there are likely several other projects vying for your attention."

This is only true if you believe a junior engineer should work a 45 hr week.

If you are bit more realistic and expect them to work 40hrs a week and study at least an extra 10 hrs on their own time, they should be able to fit in the checking.

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?

A star to Rowingengineer for acknowledging that junior engineers get to have a life too!

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources