What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
(OP)
Does your firm have a standard policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Does everything have to be checked by somebody? Or do only certain things get checked? Does nothing get checked? I'm just curious what the norm is in the industry for quality assurance of design calculations.
Does everything have to be checked by somebody? Or do only certain things get checked? Does nothing get checked? I'm just curious what the norm is in the industry for quality assurance of design calculations.






RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
I wish things were checked and double checked. I know for a fact that errors are happening and I am just waiting for the one OH MY error to happen.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
- The boss check if the result of the design make sense on the drawing ! (judging by experience !)
- Calculations are never checked except if the employee says scary things that would lead the boss to doubt the competence of the engineer...
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Except for one office that I worked in, I have never had any type of QA/QC. Usually the fees and schedules do not allow for any kind of checking much less designing. This always worries me as I catch a bunch of mistakes while doing the calculations, so that probably means that I am missing just as many or more than I catch.
It is getting harder and harder to provide a good product for the fees that we are able to charge. Unfortunately, we do not have the marketing leverage to demand higher fees or the volume to work on only the jobs we want.
But I try to remain optimistic about the direction of the profession and that our clients we start to see us more as a beneficial professional service and less like a "necessary evil" engineering commodity.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
I do some consulting work with other engineering companies. A few weeks ago I was blasted for taking to much time to review calculations and how other consultants are not as difficult as I am. I proceeded to find 2 simple mistakes in the attachment they sent over that made a huge world of difference in the design. Needless to say, they were quite embarrassed. hahahaha
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
So it sort of depends on what is going on!!
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
I've always considered reviewing calculations somewhat counter productive. It's so time consuming, that the end product (drawings) are slighted. Plus, it gets you caught up in the minutiae of the numbers, when you might miss a whopper of a mistake in the whole approach.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
I prefer doing that over checking calculations, because you can't fall into the trap of being led by the other engineer's math. It can be easy to duplicate someone's mistakes when you're following their math. If they've come up with a neat concept, or something that you wouldn't normally catch they can explain it when you go and ask why some beam looks like it's sized incorrectly.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
That firm also had a format for structural design notes which was expected to be followed. If it wasn't followed, checking would have been much more difficult. I recall disliking the task of performing numerical checks on other engineers' design notes and I felt it was not the most effective way to avoid glaring errors in design. Nevertheless, a good many mistakes were caught and I would have to admit that it was somewhat effective.
In two subsequent firms, there was no checking department and everyone more or less followed his own preferences insofar as design notes were concerned. Some of those notes defied clarity or readability.
When I started my own firm, I was the only one doing structural design, so I reviewed my designs from the drawings, usually doing approximate calculations without reference to design notes, although this sometimes led to a more thorough review of my design notes.
Throughout my years as a structural engineer, I have used a format for design notes almost identical to the one I learned in those early days at my first job. The reason for that is that I thought it was a good format which facilitated finding the design of a particular element long after the work was done. By the way, that firm is still going strong although the original partners have died.
BA
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
I can understand that most major errors won't pass the sight test. You get suspicious when you a W12x19 beam spanning 40 feet or something like that. Even most steel fabricators will flag something like that. But it also seems like there are plenty of errors that go beyond what looks right, particularly in connection design or lateral design. It seems like you should at least be diligent about trying to check atypical design features and other things that aren't so obvious.
I would think the level of checking should also be commensurate with the magnitude of the project. You can probably eyeball the design of a single story wood structure in a few minutes to know whether or not it is safely designed. On the other hand, I would hope there is a rigorous amount of checking done to verify the design of a high-rise building or a long-span bridge.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Also, if the job is nontrivial, then there it is impractical to have someone go back through and check someone else's calculation notebook. To do that _well_ would take a good chunk of the time required for the calculations. The checker barely figures out what's going on by the time runs out for the checking process. For a trivial job, there's probably not enough fee to design it, much less bring someone else in to look at it also.
An experienced engineer must go over the drawings to see if the overall concept and sizes make sense. For example, if someone has designed a lot of composite floors, he should be able to look at a beam or girder size and tributary area and get within a few sizes without running one calculation. He can keep a big picture view while verifying all of the member sizes, without getting bogged down in whether the guy used 22 psf or 18 psf in his roof dead load, or picked this or that V off the wind map.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Yes, it's frustrating for a young guy which is why I am not satisfied with where I am. There is no way for me to learn to get to this level of 'feel' without first knowing that my long hand or computer analysis calculations are accurate.
As a company, we check drawings and specifications in detail but rarely take any time for calculations. Most of that is left up to the individual responsibility of the engineer.
I have gone to my boss and asked him to check my calculations a few times. He usually tosses my notes aside and does his own set of calcs (never more than a 1/2 page) and tells me either yes or no...sigh.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
EIT
www.HowToEngineer.com
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
While it may be disheartning as a young engineer on your bosses 'feel' for structures, this is something that comes with time. I'm only five or so years into practice, but I found this feel, for me, was developed on my own time. I didn't have time during the 9 to 5 (or 8 to 6 In reality) to spend time getting a feel for things. Instead I got this on my own time, going over old lecture notes, creeping on this site, and doing my own sanity checks.
If a young engineer really wants to 'get' structures as a designer, unfortunately the time will have to be spent outside of work hours. With plug and chug, push a button, analysis programs and design sheets, the fees are no longer there for us to learn on the job. The old guys got to feel out their designs, collecting loads, using simplifications via hand methods. I really believe this was a better way to learn, but alas those days are long gone. It's quicker, faster, cheaper these days.
I don't mean to hijack the thread, or hate on pittguy's comments, but the discussion got me thinking about the ways the profession is changing. How much more can market forces squeeze out of our profession? At some point diminishing fees, and professional ethics need to come to a common point, but how we get there is a mystery to me.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Well..., you darn well better be right (correct). You and your company, and your clients can’t afford for you to be wrong, if you want to stay out of trouble. You better come up with a self checking system even if your office has a formal checking system. You can’t afford to be wrong too many times in your boss’ eye, and your office can’t be wrong as the plans go out for construction. Most insurers these days demand/insist on some sort of a QA program in a consulting office they are insuring. You would probably be surprised how much checking is going on when you are young or a new member in a firm. As you gain experience in their ways and methods and they gain trust in your work, you are expected to be self checking, pretty much. That anyone would check all of your calcs. is pretty impractical, time and productivity wise. But, if everything, calcs., details and engineering decisions you make turns up lemons you can be sure they will be checking your work, or finding someplace else for you to do your work.
It’s important to develop a mentor relationship with the people who check your work, so you can learn from them. No good boss should object to intelligent questions, and they should certainly be willing to explain, so you do learn. But, don’t expect them to hold your hand like a baby sitter, they are expecting you to become an equal. And, they do expect you to do some of this study and learning on your own. The same should hold true for the people who’s work you are checking at some point.
Hacksaw:
I think it is admirable that you had the gumption to do some of this extra work on your own time to improve yourself and your understanding of your profession. I think young people need much more of that attitude today. Unlike many of the questions here, where the answers would show up in the first few paragraphs of their text books on that subject, it is nice to see someone who doesn’t expect to be spoon fed. The older fellows here certainly did the same self study thing..., thinking I should have known that, after being called on something, or being amazed at my boss’ ability to see a problem area on the plans, a beam size error or poor connection detail. And, despite the lack of software 30, 40, 50 year ago the pace in the consulting office was no less hectic, we learned in doing as you suggested, and we were more intimately connected to the beam or column we were designing, vs. you guys and your software spitting out dozens of beams at a pop, none of which you’ve even calced. the moment on. But, we were expected to be productive right out of the chute, and to a good extent did our extra learning on our own time. I never read and underlined a new code for the first time, in the office. That took a few weeks of evenings at home, although that in itself has become a full time job these days.
What I think I’m seeing these days is that two thirds of the questions are about some dumb assed, over complicated, factor in a code equation, which nobody can explain; or some complexity in modeling in a program which has been elaborated to the point that it should do everything but blow your nose for you. And, no one understands what they are actually designing because they are so wrapped up in bldg. code and the program’s complexities. I don’t even know that we are turning out more work today. Certainly no better. We are certainly turning out more complex work, dealing with much more complex codes, which are supposed to substitute for engineering judgment and experience, save material, be a safer, more exact designs. And, we are doing this in a crazy hurried way which has bean counters saying we gotta get this building up and occupied so we can start make money off of it. Mill order the steel so we can get going, never mind you don’t have it designed yet, pour the foundations tomorrow, but don’t pour em bigger just cause you don’t know the loads yet, we’re trying to save money here. Oh... we’ll tell you in a few months what the bldg. is going to be used for as soon as we line up a buyer. And, we’ll take care of the rest in RFI’s. If this isn’t the tail wagging the dog, I don’t know what is.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Bolt45 & Hacksaw: Be careful where you poke that sharp stick, you might get a reaction.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
The level of review I do on the submitted calculations varies. Sometimes I just verify that they have been checked. Other times I check every line, like when the calculations conclude that a piece of equipment needs to be downrated, or when lateral loads are involved. It is amazing how often I find major mistakes even in checked calculations, especially with the load path for laterally loads.
In bridge engineering, calculations are always checked. At least they were where ever I worked. I guess it's different with buildings. Yikes!
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
So the question is, how do we fix this as a group and is it even possible at this point? Or do we just keep letting things go on as it is okay? In my opinion, this cheap charley, lowest bidder mentality has hurt the profession.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
I'm not completely discounting feel, most of my work now is drawn first and checked second, but I think there's an argument to be made against simply dismissing bolt45's concerns by telling him that his bosses have a feel for what is correct.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
It's still frustrating to go to my boss with a question (usually, like it was mentioned based on one of those obscure factors or contradictory statements in a code) and have unable to help work through the answer as it should be. He usually pulls out a code from 20 years ago, when it was written more simply, and gives me that answer!
This is mostly where my frustration comes from. I know that the latest edition of codes need followed, no matter how long or ridiculous they have gotten. Yet, when the person who is supposed to be checking my calculations/design simply blows off anything that's too complex to understand...it's quite frustrating.
Anyway, good discussion and lots of good points all around.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Pretty much sums it up.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
Are you implying that worrying about design errors due to poor QA/QC policies is a naive concern?
You're assuming that you are given proper time for self-checking. Like fancypants said, often times you are struggling just to find time to get the calculations done the first time to meet an unrealistic deadline.
I understand that people will be checking over your work when you are green, even if that doesn't mean they ask you to submit your calculations. But even as you become a seasoned engineer, humans still make human errors despite experience.
Are you saying there are no successful engineering firm that employ this type of practice? I worked at one where everything was supposed to be checked.
I agree with all this, especially the part about young engineers needing to assume more responsibility for their own development. Employer's should make the effort to meet them halfway with professional development opportunities, though. Nowadays, the many webinars offered are pretty cheap and efficient of ways filling in the gaps.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
"Are you implying that worrying about design errors due to poor QA/QC policies is a naive concern?"
Yes, worrying about this is a waste of time and energy. Rather than worry, start checking, start the ball rolling. however do I believe checking is an important part of the design chain? Yes it is the most important part.
however my response was directed at this line
"There is no way for me to learn to get to this level of 'feel' without first knowing that my long hand or computer analysis calculations are accurate"
This is a young's man view, someone else must give him a hand up for him to start performing.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
It used to be true. Now, there's no budget for detailed checking and people don't seem to want to check numbers. They just want to "review" calculations. As long as the QA form is filled out.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
I think the responsibility of constantly asking questions, being curious and trying to understand the fundamentals behind a problem lies with the YOUNG ENGINEER. You should never be afraid to ask too many question, no matter how stupid they are.
I am still learning the ropes and rely on senior engineers, experienced hands wherever I find them........either in person or via these forums.
It’s no trick to get the answers when you have all the data. The trick is to get the answers when you only have half the data and half that is wrong and you don’t know which half - LORD KELVIN
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
I have had a senior engineer tell me that there was no such thing as at-rest earth presure, I am happy in that instance that I questioned his expertise.
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
In the 4.5 years I've been working here I've only once came back after one of my designs has been submitted and found a major error (thankfully in the conservative direction) and only once has anyone found one of our companies' designs to have a major error (which worked out fine in the end, make sure when you specify a cap channel that the drafter actually puts it on the drawings).
I think that there's nothing wrong with only self-checking your work or just making sure that it passes the "engineering judgement" test. However, if I worked for a firm and couldn't ask someone for a double check (wither it was required by the firm or not) and was told that we didn't have time for it I would get very nervous about the management of that firm.
Finally, in the end it's the PE's call wither he or she wants to check a design. If they feel comfortable with it and you feel comfortable with it then no further checks are required if you ask me.
Maine EIT, Civil/Structural. Going to take the 1st part of the 16-hour SE test in October, wish me luck!
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
It is not always easy for a young engineer to fit time in for checking, especially when there are likely several other projects vying for your attention. When your boss tells you it is going to be struggle to meet the deadline at the end of the week, he is going to want to see you working on that job when he comes in your office, not checking the previous job that was hastily completed.
While there are plenty gray areas requiring the use of creative judgement, I still think the large majority of the profession involves crunching of numbers. A simple gravity column is either adequately sized or it isn't. Same thing with a simple beam. There is no "art". What exactly is it that you are bemoaning about plugging and chugging?
And what is "the old school way of doing things"?
I usually fill out those "checked by" blanks with either "LOL" or "HAH".
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?
This is only true if you believe a junior engineer should work a 45 hr week.
If you are bit more realistic and expect them to work 40hrs a week and study at least an extra 10 hrs on their own time, they should be able to fit in the checking.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: What is your firm's policy for checking structural engineering calculations?