×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Is it all really like this?
49

Is it all really like this?

Is it all really like this?

(OP)
So being a young,up and coming mech designer, after years of applying for paid and unpaid internships,I finally was accepted at a fairly large company. That was about a year ago and so far all I've learned is how much every department seems to hate and blame engineering and "CYA"... Spending time on here I have seen its fairly common. Even though that was very vague, Im hoping to start a good survival thread here, maybe get some advice.     

RE: Is it all really like this?

Every company has it's politics. As they say one bad apple spoils the batch.

You can tough it out, or look at the smaller companies which have less politics.

A company I worked for once would do middle managment haircuts every few years. But I came to relize that was a good thing.

RE: Is it all really like this?

(OP)
It's just the failure to progress for me that is upsetting, given the company, i could care less if they prosper or not but i want to move forward... It's the politics that seem to hold me back, and that can make someone develop a piss-poor attitude towards things.

RE: Is it all really like this?

3
You've been there a year and you're crabby about not moving up? And I can guarantee they see your "I could care less about this company" attitude. Take a deep breath, find some patience, and work to better the company. Then promotions will come.

RE: Is it all really like this?

9
Any time you have two people together, you will have politics.  If you think you need to bolster your skills, invest in learning how to work with people and not compromise your values.  And know your values intimately before getting too cocky about your political skills.  There are innumerable ways to get tripped up in life.  And if you get tripped up, remember it's not the end of the world and you will recover.  I've learned a number of my greatest lessons through my failures.

Patience is a virtue to practice not simply admire in others.  Be still and know Who is in control of all things.

Managers are in control, not you, so you'll move up in their timing.  They, like you, will need to be still sometimes, too.  Like sita noted, the managers will detect your lack of concern for the company's bottom line.  If the company doesn't make money, people don't keep jobs.  That is a fundamental of life not some abstract thought for philosophical types.  The company does not exist to allow anyone to move up.  They exist to make money.  What you think comes across to others.  You'll need to work out your thoughts and attitudes to correct that.  When you're in charge, you'll have lessons of what not to do to your subordinates.  :)

It's easy to become negative in life.  It's a lot more profitable to be and remain positive in life despite the trials endured.  The trials will come and that isn't what is important.  The important aspect of trials is how you handle them.  Grace and poise are invaluable assets in every aspect of life and especially so with life's hardships.  If you think this is easy to do, you have not been sufficiently challenged yet.  If you learn to use grace and poise, eventually someone will thank you for their application to them.  Then you will know how you impact others' lives for the good, which is humbling.  :)

I've known other engineering graduates interested in climbing the ladder move out of engineering to climb.  They weren't interested in engineering beyond climbing the ladder.  If that is your situation, you may want to look at other options.  Engineering is an excellent springboard to other jobs or professions.  There is no shame in using an engineering degree in that manner, as long as you are truthful about it with yourself and others.  Know yourself intimately to determine the true source of your frustrations and how to correct them.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Is it all really like this?

I started in engineering at a very large company. At that time there were around 9,000 employees, and over 1,000 engineers, under one roof.  I did not like it there.  I had similar thoughts as the OP.  I left after four years. Went to a much smaller company where there were around 10 engineers.  I learned a lot.  Now twenty-some years later I know a lot about material handling; I do not have a pension; the people who started with me at the big company are eligible for retirement with pensions; I have earned advanced degrees; I am respected in an industry that is extremely cyclical.  

Mixed bag of lessons learned.

Might be better to have an interesting hobby and a dull job.  

 

RE: Is it all really like this?

2
" i could care less if they prosper or not"

They could care less whether you get promoted or not.

Now the two of you are about even. You've both got wet trousers and the audience are laughing their heads off.  

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Is it all really like this?

(OP)
thanks for the input, greglocock, im a lowly engineer/intern.. im sure they get there's either way! i just imagined id get moved into a DRAFTING position by now... i try to maintain a professional composure but it becomes hard when your at the bottom and most problems are pointed towards you.
 "CYA" is the company motto  

RE: Is it all really like this?

(OP)
It's a little more complicated than that though...
 

RE: Is it all really like this?

Politics and immaturity are common.
Blaming engineering is because they are ignorant.
Patience and thick skin will help you more than anything.

Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Is it all really like this?

6
REVK,

At my second employer out of university I was in a similar position to you. I was doing a mix of maintenance technician's work on the older, dirtier, unreliable parts of the process, plus the engineering crap which the older guys didn't much fancy. In hindsight I'm quite pleased with that experience. Here are a few things I learned:

  • Bad design is inexcusable. Take pride in your own designs and make them as good as you possibly can.
  • Few things are so good that they can't be improved, and few things are so bad that they can't be improved. Fixing 'impossible' problems gets your name displayed in all kinds of positive ways.
  • Taking on the awkward tasks means you get involved with all sorts of interesting things and interesting people. Lots of career doors open when you have broad experience and have contacts on the inside.
  • In a manufacturing environment you need friends on the shop floor, among the trades and supervisors. Respect them, learn from them, listen to what works and what doesn't, and ask what can be improved.

  •  
    Seems to me that you are at a similar place in your career. The question is, do you want to confront the difficulties or run away?
      

    ----------------------------------
      
    If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
     

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    There is a lot of good advice above. I particularly like what slta, Greg and Scotty have to say.

    Of course we can only speculate after reading what seems to be more of a grumble than an objective statement of fact. I also detected a fair dose of entitlement. At school and at home you might have been entitled to all sorts of rewards not really earned the hard way. In the real world rewards are almost only the hard won type.

    Regards
    Pat
    See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
    http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
    for site rules
     

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    What do people see when they look at you?

    Do they see a lowly intern type low level guy that want's things; are you just towing the line?

    Or do they see someone that has figured out who's in charge, and has approached that person for advice on how to further their career? Do they see someone that has gone to upper level management types, and asked them what classes they should consider taking to learn more? Do they see someone that has taken some extra steps to learn about business, how things work, what's important to the company, and how can you deliver some productivity in those areas?

    You attitude is 90% of your success. What does yours look like?

     

    Charlie
    www.facsco.com

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    (OP)
    ScottyUk,
     in hindsight, your right, i think the experience here will be benneficial. Mostly i am just mad with the politics and the general outlook on engineering from manufacturing and all departments. I didn't realize you kind of inherit the past follies of engineering when you start somewhere. I have gone out on the floor and asked them what they needed from us or what we do that does or doesn't work. I guess in college you just have this image in your head of how things will be, then it turns out it is very different.. not to say i don't like engineering or design, but just didn't think that there would be as much BS.

    Patprimmer,
     There is a new designer at the office that really pissed me off when he first started, becuase he walked around with a sence of entitlement but he never really earned anything... as much as that made me mad, i feel a little guilty looking back, becuase like you said i kind of do...

    FACS,
     At first, i was very motivated and wanted to learn as much as i could, spent time out on the floor asking questions, talked to the designers and managers. Its just so easy to become so cynical
    and unfortunatly i may have earned a certain image amongst engineering that i didn't want. im still motivated to learn, and spend a lot of time outside of work studying and doing research but i kind of have a chip on my shoulder now. I guess my original post was kind of out of anger, just seems real easy to feel that way.

    Thanks all for the good advise, this was pretty good timing because i have my review today and i was going to walk in to my managers office with a little of that "chip on my shoulder" mentality, now i feel a bit more calm about things.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    Companies are like dysfunctional families.  Some companies are worse than others.  CYA seems to be the standard operating procedure at many places and the blame often goes to engineering.  Like you I had a different idea about engineering when I was in school.  I felt being an engineer was a title that earned respect.  The truth is if you are a good engineer your peers will repsect you, however when things go wrong management will always blame engineering and when things go right, management takes all the credit.  I find that management types are often so out of touch that their opinion of you could be completely different than what your peers think of you and you would think that when it comes time for promotion or raises your boss would get input from your colleagues, but you would probably be wrong about that.  We had a good program at my company where feedback from peeers, other managers, and even subordinates was used for performance reviews.  That lasted for one year.  I wish I had a better picture to paint, but corporate America sucks and can easily kill all the joy of what could be an otherwise very interesting and rewarding career.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    2
    REVK,
    I'll add one other point, and please take this constructively.  If your spoken and official written correspondence is as unpolished as your posts here, that may be a part, perhaps small, but still a part of the problem.  Inconsistent capitalization, mixing up your and you're, bad punctuation, can all reflect poorly on you.

    Take the time to get all of that correct, especially in work communications where you are constantly being evaluated for those promotions.

    IC   

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    (OP)
    ImminentCollapse,
      Thank you for your criticism... sometimes i forget i am on a professional forum and not a jeep forum! lol, yes, i use correct grammar and punctuation at work. after my evaluation today that isn't even a blip on my radar...i appreciate your concern and yes even at that aspect of a professional career.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    (OP)
    KENAT,
     It wasn't bad, a little more impersonal than i expected though. I found out, to my boss, i am motivated, hard working, and sometimes too eager to learn but that i am "un-reliable" and not in the sense that i don't' come to work, but apparently i can get distracted with other tasks and fail to meet my deadlines..it wasn't bad he just said i've left room for improvement  

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    REVK, I'm glad your review went so good.  We all have room for improvement, if we're honest enough to admit it.

    CYA is a part of life.  It's always been and always will be.  When I see it, I think about Eve blaming the serpent for deceiving her and Adam blaming Eve for his own fall from grace.

    I've worked with operators and mechanics who had very harsh attitudes towards engineers.  I found a plethora of reasons ranging from jealousy to shafted by poor designs.  I found most want recognition for their humanity.  If you take the high road with them, some will change their attitude towards you and the working environment will improve.  The stubbornly jealous ones I learned to work with but not work on.

    You're on the right track so keep up the good work.  Stabilize your emotions such that others don't influence your ability to do your job to the best of your ability and negativity doesn't seep into your personal life.

     

    Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
    Quillin Engineering, LLC

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    REVK - some places always insist on identifying areas for improvement - so it may be a fairly minor point.  Our place nominally does this (though apparently last year I was perfect and one of the few people not given a specific area to improve on).

    However, if you combine this with your viewpoint given in your posts above then it could be taken as a message to 'stick to your job' and worry less about everything else outside of your control - at least if it's to the detriment of your actual job.

    Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
    What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    5
    lacajun,

    To say that CYA is a part of life is possibly true, but to me, only acceptable to a point.  It depends on the context.  If by "CYA" it means making sure that your nose is clean and that you always have enough evidence (memos, emails and such) that, if poop ever hit the fan you could hold it up to people and say, "See?  It wasn't my fault.  My backside is covered.", then I have to say that I *hate* CYA mentality and I refuse to be in that mode.  On the other hand, if by "CYA" it means just making sure that the work you do reflects an honest, good effort so that you can point to it and say, "See?  I am proud of this work.", then I am all for CYA.

    But, I never was especially politically astute, and relative to my age, I have (through my own conscious doing) done a profoundly good job of climbing *down* the corporate ladder.  Others my age are now VPs, managers ... MBAs ... driving around in BMWs, Mercedes, living in 4000 square foot homes in the winter and private condos in Mexico on their vacation. Me, I am still just an engineer who lives in a small house on a hobby farm with a couple of horses and a plethora of dogs, driving a pick-up truck.

    Sometimes I think I should have done more CYA and less of whatever it is I have spent my life doing.  Some days I feel like I have become nothing more than a mere soap tablet in the urinal of engineering.

    Those are the days I drink beer and think, it might not be covered, but other people can nonetheless kiss it.

    In the end, the only thing of much value is  character, and my opinion is that people who are predisposed to a classic "CYA" (meant in the negative sense) mentality tend to have less of it.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    I've worked at 2 small companies, and both have treated me very well. The only factors that is bad about the small companies is funding and knowledge base. Politics is alot better, and I've gotten along with everybody really well. And everybody is like family around here. Larger companies though will give you better image, more money, and better support system (like expensive software/CAD programs)

    Either way, any job will teach you something engineering related or not  

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    (OP)
    tienti, i seriously doubt you make less than me! lol, possibly the software is better.. we use autodesk inventor 2012.. but there seems to be a slight licensing issue with everyone. So its iffy! There is always something to learn i imagine. Its a foot in the door, thats all i can say...

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    Totally agree with snorgy about CYA and have had a similar career path.  Yeah, sometimes I lament that I turned 50 and still sit in a cubicle.  Part of it is a lack of "CYA" and part of it was just having other priorities in my life.  I'm very grateful to be an engineer because an emphasis on staying technical continues to be of great value.  The current economic situation notwithstanding, I do not think I would have much trouble finding a new job if I wanted to.

    Concerning character there is a wonderful concept in the book "King Rat" by James Clavel.  The POWs are all in starvation mode and often have to cheat and steal just to survive.  But if one swears on his name he can usually be trusted because "if you don't have your name you truly have nothing".

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    Small company, large company, aren't you for getting there is also goverment work. At the local level it isen't that bad, and they also provide good tools to work with. Sort of like a small company feeling, yet money enough to get things done.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    13
    OK.  Started in engineering 35 years ago.  Worked for large and small, even ran a one-man operation for 10 years.  Manufacturing and consulting.  Equipment design and product design.  A few bottom lines:
    1.  Stop thinking like an employee.  Start thinking like a business man.  Your managers and the folks that use your work product are your CUSTOMERS.  It is up to you to give them what they want, even when they can't tell you clearly what it is, even when they change schedules and requirements on you, even when they blame you for their mistakes, even when your providers don't do their job.  Simply - accept no excuses from yourself.

    2.  When someone comes to you with a problem that isn't your responsibility, don't blow them off.  Do SOMETHING that moves them closer to a solution.

    3.  Don't make promises you can't keep, no matter how much they press you.  But move heaven and earth to keep any promises you have made.

    4.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that your education is over.  I am here to tell you it has JUST BEGUN!  Learn something every day.  The struggles you are going through now are simply the tuition for the school of life.

    5.  You can learn more from a bad experience or a bad example than you can from a good one.

    6.  The guys without an education that have been doing this for years are your most valuable resource.  They may not be able to express themselves in engineering terms, but they know what works and what doesn't.  Always show them that you respect them deeply and value their advice.

    7.  Don't be afraid to ask for help.  People take that as a compliment.  Don't ask them to do your work.  Just ask for their opinions and ideas.

    8.  If you keep these attitudes eventually your reputation will become known, and you will become the go-to guy.  You will be their first option.  You are in the real world now, and it truly is up to you.  You can't set the rules, but you can learn to thrive within them.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    It's a little concerning that many seem to be regarding as 'small businesses' and 'big businesses' as homogeneous groups without question.

    This is not remotely the case so trying to form anything more than vague generalizations is impossible.

    Some big businesses actually act like a collection of small businesses - or at least some sites or departments can have the 'small business feel'.

    On the other hand some small businesses can have the issues often associated with large ones.

    Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
    What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    Print out JBoggs' reply, frame it and keep it on your cubicle/office wall - it is excellent advice.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    You can also learn by losing arguments. Some of my main and I might even say most important strengths are based on what I learned after getting beat bloody while losing an arguement. Don't be afraid to argue your point, but don't be afraid to admit that you were wrong when you are, and we all are from time to time.

    Sign me "lost but won".

    rmw

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    Admit that I am wrong, never. Admit that you have a better idea, OK.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    cranky,
    Whether you want to admit it or not, there will be times when you are wrong, like right now.
    The man that is wrong but unwilling to admit it is only hurting his own advancement.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    Cranky may have neglected to use a smiley.
    I am waiting (in the UK) to see the much trailed episode of The Big Bang in which Stephen Hawkins appears and finds a mistake in Shelley's math..... about the only time he is forced, reluctantly, to agree he may have made a mistake ..... as if it is the one and only time he has made a mistake. (if he will only admit a mistake to Stephen Hawkins, the fact of the mistake possibly means he has made other mistakes but never admitted of the possibility before now.....)

    JMW
    www.ViscoAnalyser.com

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    I actually don't have a problem admitting when I am wrong.

    People who want to prove you wrong have agendas. People who remind you that you may have forgotten something, don't.
    So never admitting you are wrong, but that you need to make an adjustment is much perfered.


    I'm a simple man, I really don't want to learn how to do smileys.
    People really should learn to understand sarcasim.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    Quote:

    I'm a simple man, I really don't want to learn how to do smileys. People really should learn to understand sarcasim.

    Cranky. I think you are wrong with that. wink

    Regards
    Pat
    See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
    http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
    for site rules

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    (OP)
    well, i can't complain to my co workers or have a chip on my shoulder any more. I've been working full time for 7 months. I have averaged 43 hours a week. So our new HR had been asking me questions about what hours I want to commit to working (we had been "flex time"). So i went ahead and asked for health insurance. Well two weeks later i got my answer... PT 30 hours a week, got shafted hard on that. what is protocol without losing my job until i find another? Im doing everything i can to show that i need the time to work. I can't get done what i need to do in 40 hours let alone 30. I'm slowing down how i work. What should i do?

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    You go to your boss and point out that with the workload you currently have and the deadlines you are facing 30 h/wk is not going to get the job done.

    Looks to me like there's a column of smoke where the river meets the road there, I must admit. And I don't mean that somebody's Ford went up in flames.

    Cheers

    Greg Locock


    New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    REVK, continue doing your job and use your free time to look for another one.

    SNORGY, you are most correct about CYA. In my book, there is no excuse for CYA to cover mistakes and/or blame someone else. That's the only CYA I have seen. I ultimately began keeping documentation to protect myself from some pretty darned evil people trying to get me in trouble up to and including being fired. Doing a good job is not CYA but fulfilling requirements and doing so in a way that is honorable. I definitely believe in doing a good job with integrity. If I mess up, I mess up. However, that is not Corporate culture and hasn't been throughout my career.

    Early in my career I took responsibility for a problem I didn't cause and was in no way related to. It happened prior to my first job as an engineer. The meeting bogged down with people trying to find someone to blame and blaming each other. The project had been given to me to fix the problem and it was my meeting. When I recognized what was going on, I quickly decided to accept responsibility so the blame could squarely be placed on me. It had the desired effect and the meeting moved forward and we found a solution.

    Corporate culture is: Do not admit to making a mistake nor say that anyone else has made a mistake. It fosters a lot of evil from lying to shirking responsibilities. I've heard pastors say lying is the biggest problem we have in the USA today. I agree because of my experiences with people. I think that's why we are in the economic quagmire of the last few years. The chickens have come home to roost.

    Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
    Quillin Engineering, LLC

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    What hours did you ask to work before bringing up the health insurance part? I remember at one of my jobs I mentioned I liked working and ended up going for 80+ hour weeks for over 2 years. One of the partners seemed very happy signing my paycheck every 2 weeks. Maybe you need to make sure your work really is up to par before thinking the company is shafting you. You may also be working at a very slow pace compared to others which they would rather pay the ones outputting more.

    B+W Engineering and Design
    Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
    http://bwengr.com | http://bwstructuralengineer.com | http://bwcivilengineer.com

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    Good one saf12. I remember someone telling me about change in the modern world. Change is like seeing a railroad train coming down the track toward you. When it arrives you can do one of 3 things. You can get on the train and ride along (that is: embrace the change). You can stand aside and let the train go by (that is: see how things go). Finaly, you can stand in front of the train with your arm raised to stop it.
    Whatever you do, dont stand in front of the train.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    Sadly, around here, people are more concerned about who cut it than they are about who moved it.

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    geordie87,

    Other times you can try your best to tell the drivers that the bridge is out, and watch as they accelerate toward oblivion.

    And there's always the 'derail the train' option... wink

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    A work-safe poster i have in my home office that illustrates my feelings on Geordie87's comment:

    http://www.despair.com/overconfidence.html

    "Before you attempt to beat the odds, be sure you could survive the odds beating you"

    RE: Is it all really like this?

    I liked the cheese story, reminds of every job I have to find again and again.

    Red Flag This Post

    Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

    Red Flag Submitted

    Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
    The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

    Reply To This Thread

    Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

    Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


    Resources