Is it all really like this?
Is it all really like this?
(OP)
So being a young,up and coming mech designer, after years of applying for paid and unpaid internships,I finally was accepted at a fairly large company. That was about a year ago and so far all I've learned is how much every department seems to hate and blame engineering and "CYA"... Spending time on here I have seen its fairly common. Even though that was very vague, Im hoping to start a good survival thread here, maybe get some advice.





RE: Is it all really like this?
You can tough it out, or look at the smaller companies which have less politics.
A company I worked for once would do middle managment haircuts every few years. But I came to relize that was a good thing.
RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
Patience is a virtue to practice not simply admire in others. Be still and know Who is in control of all things.
Managers are in control, not you, so you'll move up in their timing. They, like you, will need to be still sometimes, too. Like sita noted, the managers will detect your lack of concern for the company's bottom line. If the company doesn't make money, people don't keep jobs. That is a fundamental of life not some abstract thought for philosophical types. The company does not exist to allow anyone to move up. They exist to make money. What you think comes across to others. You'll need to work out your thoughts and attitudes to correct that. When you're in charge, you'll have lessons of what not to do to your subordinates. :)
It's easy to become negative in life. It's a lot more profitable to be and remain positive in life despite the trials endured. The trials will come and that isn't what is important. The important aspect of trials is how you handle them. Grace and poise are invaluable assets in every aspect of life and especially so with life's hardships. If you think this is easy to do, you have not been sufficiently challenged yet. If you learn to use grace and poise, eventually someone will thank you for their application to them. Then you will know how you impact others' lives for the good, which is humbling. :)
I've known other engineering graduates interested in climbing the ladder move out of engineering to climb. They weren't interested in engineering beyond climbing the ladder. If that is your situation, you may want to look at other options. Engineering is an excellent springboard to other jobs or professions. There is no shame in using an engineering degree in that manner, as long as you are truthful about it with yourself and others. Know yourself intimately to determine the true source of your frustrations and how to correct them.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Is it all really like this?
Mixed bag of lessons learned.
Might be better to have an interesting hobby and a dull job.
RE: Is it all really like this?
They could care less whether you get promoted or not.
Now the two of you are about even. You've both got wet trousers and the audience are laughing their heads off.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Is it all really like this?
"CYA" is the company motto
RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
Blaming engineering is because they are ignorant.
Patience and thick skin will help you more than anything.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Is it all really like this?
At my second employer out of university I was in a similar position to you. I was doing a mix of maintenance technician's work on the older, dirtier, unreliable parts of the process, plus the engineering crap which the older guys didn't much fancy. In hindsight I'm quite pleased with that experience. Here are a few things I learned:
Seems to me that you are at a similar place in your career. The question is, do you want to confront the difficulties or run away?
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Is it all really like this?
Of course we can only speculate after reading what seems to be more of a grumble than an objective statement of fact. I also detected a fair dose of entitlement. At school and at home you might have been entitled to all sorts of rewards not really earned the hard way. In the real world rewards are almost only the hard won type.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Is it all really like this?
Do they see a lowly intern type low level guy that want's things; are you just towing the line?
Or do they see someone that has figured out who's in charge, and has approached that person for advice on how to further their career? Do they see someone that has gone to upper level management types, and asked them what classes they should consider taking to learn more? Do they see someone that has taken some extra steps to learn about business, how things work, what's important to the company, and how can you deliver some productivity in those areas?
You attitude is 90% of your success. What does yours look like?
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Is it all really like this?
in hindsight, your right, i think the experience here will be benneficial. Mostly i am just mad with the politics and the general outlook on engineering from manufacturing and all departments. I didn't realize you kind of inherit the past follies of engineering when you start somewhere. I have gone out on the floor and asked them what they needed from us or what we do that does or doesn't work. I guess in college you just have this image in your head of how things will be, then it turns out it is very different.. not to say i don't like engineering or design, but just didn't think that there would be as much BS.
Patprimmer,
There is a new designer at the office that really pissed me off when he first started, becuase he walked around with a sence of entitlement but he never really earned anything... as much as that made me mad, i feel a little guilty looking back, becuase like you said i kind of do...
FACS,
At first, i was very motivated and wanted to learn as much as i could, spent time out on the floor asking questions, talked to the designers and managers. Its just so easy to become so cynical
and unfortunatly i may have earned a certain image amongst engineering that i didn't want. im still motivated to learn, and spend a lot of time outside of work studying and doing research but i kind of have a chip on my shoulder now. I guess my original post was kind of out of anger, just seems real easy to feel that way.
Thanks all for the good advise, this was pretty good timing because i have my review today and i was going to walk in to my managers office with a little of that "chip on my shoulder" mentality, now i feel a bit more calm about things.
RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
I'll add one other point, and please take this constructively. If your spoken and official written correspondence is as unpolished as your posts here, that may be a part, perhaps small, but still a part of the problem. Inconsistent capitalization, mixing up your and you're, bad punctuation, can all reflect poorly on you.
Take the time to get all of that correct, especially in work communications where you are constantly being evaluated for those promotions.
IC
RE: Is it all really like this?
Thank you for your criticism... sometimes i forget i am on a professional forum and not a jeep forum! lol, yes, i use correct grammar and punctuation at work. after my evaluation today that isn't even a blip on my radar...i appreciate your concern and yes even at that aspect of a professional career.
RE: Is it all really like this?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Is it all really like this?
It wasn't bad, a little more impersonal than i expected though. I found out, to my boss, i am motivated, hard working, and sometimes too eager to learn but that i am "un-reliable" and not in the sense that i don't' come to work, but apparently i can get distracted with other tasks and fail to meet my deadlines..it wasn't bad he just said i've left room for improvement
RE: Is it all really like this?
CYA is a part of life. It's always been and always will be. When I see it, I think about Eve blaming the serpent for deceiving her and Adam blaming Eve for his own fall from grace.
I've worked with operators and mechanics who had very harsh attitudes towards engineers. I found a plethora of reasons ranging from jealousy to shafted by poor designs. I found most want recognition for their humanity. If you take the high road with them, some will change their attitude towards you and the working environment will improve. The stubbornly jealous ones I learned to work with but not work on.
You're on the right track so keep up the good work. Stabilize your emotions such that others don't influence your ability to do your job to the best of your ability and negativity doesn't seep into your personal life.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Is it all really like this?
However, if you combine this with your viewpoint given in your posts above then it could be taken as a message to 'stick to your job' and worry less about everything else outside of your control - at least if it's to the detriment of your actual job.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Is it all really like this?
To say that CYA is a part of life is possibly true, but to me, only acceptable to a point. It depends on the context. If by "CYA" it means making sure that your nose is clean and that you always have enough evidence (memos, emails and such) that, if poop ever hit the fan you could hold it up to people and say, "See? It wasn't my fault. My backside is covered.", then I have to say that I *hate* CYA mentality and I refuse to be in that mode. On the other hand, if by "CYA" it means just making sure that the work you do reflects an honest, good effort so that you can point to it and say, "See? I am proud of this work.", then I am all for CYA.
But, I never was especially politically astute, and relative to my age, I have (through my own conscious doing) done a profoundly good job of climbing *down* the corporate ladder. Others my age are now VPs, managers ... MBAs ... driving around in BMWs, Mercedes, living in 4000 square foot homes in the winter and private condos in Mexico on their vacation. Me, I am still just an engineer who lives in a small house on a hobby farm with a couple of horses and a plethora of dogs, driving a pick-up truck.
Sometimes I think I should have done more CYA and less of whatever it is I have spent my life doing. Some days I feel like I have become nothing more than a mere soap tablet in the urinal of engineering.
Those are the days I drink beer and think, it might not be covered, but other people can nonetheless kiss it.
In the end, the only thing of much value is character, and my opinion is that people who are predisposed to a classic "CYA" (meant in the negative sense) mentality tend to have less of it.
RE: Is it all really like this?
Either way, any job will teach you something engineering related or not
RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
Concerning character there is a wonderful concept in the book "King Rat" by James Clavel. The POWs are all in starvation mode and often have to cheat and steal just to survive. But if one swears on his name he can usually be trusted because "if you don't have your name you truly have nothing".
RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
1. Stop thinking like an employee. Start thinking like a business man. Your managers and the folks that use your work product are your CUSTOMERS. It is up to you to give them what they want, even when they can't tell you clearly what it is, even when they change schedules and requirements on you, even when they blame you for their mistakes, even when your providers don't do their job. Simply - accept no excuses from yourself.
2. When someone comes to you with a problem that isn't your responsibility, don't blow them off. Do SOMETHING that moves them closer to a solution.
3. Don't make promises you can't keep, no matter how much they press you. But move heaven and earth to keep any promises you have made.
4. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your education is over. I am here to tell you it has JUST BEGUN! Learn something every day. The struggles you are going through now are simply the tuition for the school of life.
5. You can learn more from a bad experience or a bad example than you can from a good one.
6. The guys without an education that have been doing this for years are your most valuable resource. They may not be able to express themselves in engineering terms, but they know what works and what doesn't. Always show them that you respect them deeply and value their advice.
7. Don't be afraid to ask for help. People take that as a compliment. Don't ask them to do your work. Just ask for their opinions and ideas.
8. If you keep these attitudes eventually your reputation will become known, and you will become the go-to guy. You will be their first option. You are in the real world now, and it truly is up to you. You can't set the rules, but you can learn to thrive within them.
RE: Is it all really like this?
This is not remotely the case so trying to form anything more than vague generalizations is impossible.
Some big businesses actually act like a collection of small businesses - or at least some sites or departments can have the 'small business feel'.
On the other hand some small businesses can have the issues often associated with large ones.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Is it all really like this?
Regards
Pat
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RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
Sign me "lost but won".
rmw
RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
Whether you want to admit it or not, there will be times when you are wrong, like right now.
The man that is wrong but unwilling to admit it is only hurting his own advancement.
RE: Is it all really like this?
I am waiting (in the UK) to see the much trailed episode of The Big Bang in which Stephen Hawkins appears and finds a mistake in Shelley's math..... about the only time he is forced, reluctantly, to agree he may have made a mistake ..... as if it is the one and only time he has made a mistake. (if he will only admit a mistake to Stephen Hawkins, the fact of the mistake possibly means he has made other mistakes but never admitted of the possibility before now.....)
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Is it all really like this?
People who want to prove you wrong have agendas. People who remind you that you may have forgotten something, don't.
So never admitting you are wrong, but that you need to make an adjustment is much perfered.
I'm a simple man, I really don't want to learn how to do smileys.
People really should learn to understand sarcasim.
RE: Is it all really like this?
Cranky. I think you are wrong with that.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
Looks to me like there's a column of smoke where the river meets the road there, I must admit. And I don't mean that somebody's Ford went up in flames.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Is it all really like this?
SNORGY, you are most correct about CYA. In my book, there is no excuse for CYA to cover mistakes and/or blame someone else. That's the only CYA I have seen. I ultimately began keeping documentation to protect myself from some pretty darned evil people trying to get me in trouble up to and including being fired. Doing a good job is not CYA but fulfilling requirements and doing so in a way that is honorable. I definitely believe in doing a good job with integrity. If I mess up, I mess up. However, that is not Corporate culture and hasn't been throughout my career.
Early in my career I took responsibility for a problem I didn't cause and was in no way related to. It happened prior to my first job as an engineer. The meeting bogged down with people trying to find someone to blame and blaming each other. The project had been given to me to fix the problem and it was my meeting. When I recognized what was going on, I quickly decided to accept responsibility so the blame could squarely be placed on me. It had the desired effect and the meeting moved forward and we found a solution.
Corporate culture is: Do not admit to making a mistake nor say that anyone else has made a mistake. It fosters a lot of evil from lying to shirking responsibilities. I've heard pastors say lying is the biggest problem we have in the USA today. I agree because of my experiences with people. I think that's why we are in the economic quagmire of the last few years. The chickens have come home to roost.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Is it all really like this?
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com | http://bwstructuralengineer.com | http://bwcivilengineer.com
RE: Is it all really like this?
our company uses this, and well it is kinda funny when i hear them arguing...
http://www.magnacad.com/printables/whomovedmychees...
RE: Is it all really like this?
Whatever you do, dont stand in front of the train.
RE: Is it all really like this?
RE: Is it all really like this?
Other times you can try your best to tell the drivers that the bridge is out, and watch as they accelerate toward oblivion.
And there's always the 'derail the train' option...
RE: Is it all really like this?
http://www.despair.com/overconfidence.html
"Before you attempt to beat the odds, be sure you could survive the odds beating you"
RE: Is it all really like this?