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Opportunity at a Small Company
7

Opportunity at a Small Company

Opportunity at a Small Company

(OP)
I just got a job offer from a small company...a very small company (<12).  I always saw the 'next step' at a bigger company for the opportunities it might give me to develop as an engineer.  Having looked at this position though, I think an even better opportunity for development might be going smaller because I will have the chance to 1) practice closer to the field I want to be in, 2) become a major player in a small operation, 3) take on more diverse roles without having to jump positions or wait for the corporate train to get moving.

My biggest concern though is what the future sustainability is of small firms.  They seem incredibly busy now and have done quite well over the last 10-15 years (including record years during the recession).  Yet, I still have concerns over the vulnerability of a place this small.

I appreciate everyones thoughts.
  

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

You can be a big fish in a small pond ( Problem is small ponds dry up.), or a smaller fish in a bigger pond with sharks.
Your choice.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

First, get the idea that there are more opportunities at a big firm out of your mind.  The bigger the firm, the more the specialization.  I know a guy in a big firm who does nothing except run pipeline stress analysis.  Been running Caesar models for the last 15 years and could mail them in, but he puts on a tie every morning and comes to work to analyze the next piece of pipe.

At a small firm, everyone does a range of stuff.  All the way down to my one-man firm where everything that has MuleShoe Engineering on it is my work.  That is excessive, but in a 12 man firm you are not going to be specializing much.

Also in bigger firms you have to deal with outrageous rules.  I'm working with a big firm in Australia right now that has a rule that no one can upload a file bigger than 10 MB without case-by-case approval of the IT manager.  They needed to send me 1,000 files and about 1/3 of them were bigger than 10 MB so they had to get his approval for each one.  There is no way that they were not going to give me the data I needed so this guy's "approval" was just pro forma--it still took 7 days to get a 2 hour job done.

As to stability, since I retired from BP in 2003 my one-man firm has made amazing profits every quarter while BP has had at least 6 manpower reductions in engineering over the same period.  You'd think that production companies laying engineers off would be a boom for consultants, but it hasn't worked out that way.  Every time the production companies let people go the consultants found that there were fewer people to pass them work and they had matching layoffs lagging about 3 months.  It seems counter intuitive until you realize that company engineers have evolved to project managers who just pass engineering work to consultants (for the most part, I know there is the occasional company engineer who does his own work, but they are rare).

David   

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

No one can predict the future.
A company that is doing well even in recession seems as good a bet as any.
In a big company what survives is the company. You don't necessarily get any better security there than in a small company.
Big companies tend to react to recession in a formulaic way. They tend to focus increasingly on the end of the month figures and less on the long term. That means that they focus on sales rather than R&D and they maintain margins by cutting staff.
The strength of the big companies is often illusory.

Being a little fish in a big pond is risky. The sharks see you but management don't - unless you are adept at self promotion.
Not saying the big fish small pond is better or worse just that there is no security anywhere.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

pittguy12,

Just because you work in a large firm does not. I repeat, does not mean job security. In many large corporation like GE and UTC work groups are treated like small companies.

metalhead

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

Can't add much to this discussion - all very good.  I have always liked smaller firms but now I work for a BIG one.  Benefits seem better and I run a small group with very little supervision - never have even met my boss - he is 700 miles away - but have had 13 bosses in 15 years,  So we do our thing - keep people happy - get my paycheck and benefits and go home and sleep well at night - usually.

It just depends.......

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

One can learn much more at a smaller company. There is rapid feedback on what works and what doesn't.  Risk is usually shared better. Leadership can make or break the place. Make sure that the owner is a calm and sane individual.  

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

What DVD said.  I've worked at several small firms, and if the people are hard to work with or crazy, then it's a miserable experience.  Can you talk to anyone who used to work there and find out their (obviously somewhat skewed) ideas on the people?

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

No matter where you work. The most important aspect is your immediate boss and the company/department head. Cultures flow from the top down.

I agree with everything David said. I usually do unless it's politics. winky smile

DVD and slta are also spot on.

The larger the company, normally the more rigid the rules. Smaller is more likely to quickly adjust a policy to suit individual circumstances.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

(OP)
Great feedback everyone.

I think I am just so used to the medium/bigger sized company and all of the intertia that propels them forward, the idea of a more free work environment that is much more dependent on my individual effort makes me unsure.  At the same time, it's definately a challenge that excites me and I may find I really thrive in that type of environment.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

 

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

I don't think there is an automatic equation that says smaller or larger organizations are the perfect road map to career success.

Here is some of my personal experience:

Smaller organizations are, generally speaking, more personable, i.e family oriented. Just be aware that there are positives and negatives that come with that arrangement though. Sure, the owner/boss tries to come across as caring (not always true in reality either), but there is little potential for upward growth because small organizations are mostly flat in structure, plus everyone knows everyone's business, personal or otherwise. Most often, you are asked to juggle three jobs at any given time because the owner likes the place small and doesn't want to expand too much, and it can be stressful. Smaller organizations are also nice in that there are "perks" not offered by the larger companies. For instance, my wife needed to take a personal loan without paying interest and her company owner was generous and obliged. You will mostly never get that benefit in larger corporations.

Larger organizations are generally easier to "hide" in, meaning that you can blend in with the crowd if that is your desire, but are also largely very uncaring environments. If you need special consideration to take a day off this week for a personal emergency, it is many times difficult to get without proper forms being submitted to corporate HR, etc. One positive point to larger organizations is normally greater opportunity for upward advancement, if that is your goal (and sometime even if it is not it can be forced upon you). The biggest downside I saw to a corporate environment is that you are mostly treated as a "number." Not much caring, and lots of politics and competition among peers.

Where do you go? It is up to each individual to make that choice based on his/her personal goals and objectives.

Best wishes.

TZ

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

On the other side from tz101, if you end up in a small company with a rogue boss, they tend to have freer reign to cause havoc without the typical large company structure to at least slightly moderate it.

I loved working for a smaller company, but it still had its own pros & cons.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

In a small company you may find nepotism is a killer. Just check to see how many of the boss's family have senior management roles and don't neglect those who married in to the boss's family.

On the other hand good small companies are often more capable of making decisions and making them quickly. This is because the senior management are intimately involved in the day to day running of the business and can readily assess the opportunities and risks of what is proposed.
In big companies any decisions involving spending money are often taken in the parent company who may have forgotten they even own your bit of it.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

Forgot to mention nepotism in my original post. It is rampant in smaller companies, and if you can live with that, then great. I will just warn you to use your words wisely until you have been at a smaller company for at least a year or so, long enough to find out who is married to whom, and whose grandson the company owner's is. That is indeed a major drawback to smaller organizations because too often the assumed lanes of career growth are blocked by the owner's brother, sister, mother, wife, etc. In other words, if you have your eyes on the corner office and it is already occupied by the owner's son, then just forget about it completely.

Often, I think the best setup is going into business for yourself, and then you don't put up with most of the garbage.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

Of course, the great thing about small companies, even family companies, is that if they are good and have a nice niche then some big company will hunt them down and buy them up.
Prospects can be good then.
Of course, there is one weak thing in small companies, they tend to over-value themselves. The smart ones build a growth factor into a sale so as the company grows they will have even more money to look forward to.

Avoid any company that might do a management buyout. Companies owned by big corporations where they don't really compliment the core vision. These are likely to be sold on or bought out. Its like living in an artificial depression zone. There is no security.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

Its like living in an artificial depression zone. There is no security. "

I haven't really seen any company, big or small, where job security is even remotely there in the past ten years, so what's the difference?

But I agree, whenever a potential buyout looms (and you know about it ahead of time) be extra careful. Being left in divisional limbo is never a good thing as larger corporations gobble up the smaller companies.

If you are interviewing at a company that is getting ready to be bought out, ask lots of questions ahead of time.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

I liked working at a small firm except for the terrible benefits.  Pay special attention to health insurance if you are thinking of having kids.  Many of the small firms dont/cant carry maternity coverage and you cant buy it separately....so you pay out of pocket, not cool.  

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

With the downsides of big companies there are some upsides. Personnel Practice Manuals can be used to the employee's benefit, defining hours, compensation for overtime, acceptable dress, vacation, etc. There's transition plans, evaluation systems, standard raise periods. You don't know how much you appreciate those things until you don't have them. You're not as closely governed by the owner's whims on travel, training, vacation, and many other things.
Just because it's a family doesn't automatically mean a big happy family.  

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

I think it is pretty obvious in family companies that it is much more likely family members will get priority for promotion to senior management if that is what you want, however the wider experience gained will serve you well for a management role later in a larger company.

In any company it is not wise to back stab others as you never know who is close to who no matter where you are. Also it gets you a reputation as being a weasle who can't be trusted.

Re advice about medical. That is a uniquely USA thing. Most other developed countries have a level of state support for health care and/or affordable private insurance you can take with you and is not tied to your employer, so that you don't lose your house if you lose your job or if your boss does not insure you then you get sick. I don't think the OP stated where he is located.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

I was thinking pittsburgh....

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

I was thinking University of Pittsburgh graduate.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

Just to clarify:

When I spoke about using one's words wisely at a smaller family run business until you have been there awhile, I was not necessarily referring to backstabbing or undermining others. That is not my style.

No, I am talking about general suggestions for improving things, ways to do things better, etc. You see that some family run organizations I have seen have been generally prideful and arrogant. They were not open to better ways of doing things, and if they wanted your opinion, they would give it to you. Now, get your nose back to the grindstone.

What I have seen is that these types of businesses are looking for their own definition of "team payer" and that often involves keeping your mouth shut, even if they are doing things in very poor ways. Mentioning improvement ideas to family members unknowingly can get you on the short list. Family members talk back and forth, you know.

I have seen that suggestions for improvement are generally better accepted in larger organizations. Less family pride to get in the way.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

I stick by my statement of the 18th at 12.21

Quote:



No matter where you work. The most important aspect is your immediate boss and the company/department head. Cultures flow from the top down.


I have found arrogance and pride equally distributed across companies irrespective of size or position in the management chain.

Heck I have seen production line workers who think they know more about engineering than the engineer. I have also seen engineers who dismiss the people who have to actually work with the design often leading to the attitude in the production line worker.

I have seen the same where you could substitute engineer and manager for production line worker and engineer.

One advantage in small companies is that there are less layers so there is a better chance of good communication. There is also a better chance of management knowing everyone better and seeing through impostors and troublemakers but also recognising genuine involvement and contribution. There is also a general lack of highly specialised skills including various management skills.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

tz101, man you hit it on the head.  Thinking more about my time at the small company, I totally agree with the description "pride and arrogant".  The owner had to control everything and especially when it came to nuts and bolts of operations, like the computer system, it was a joke.  

I remember the owner ran the shared office drive (project files, ACAD, etc) from a USB hard drive attached to his computer because he didn't trust anyone.  He would get pissed if we suggested ways to speed up the system, but would rather everyone waste hours per day waiting for ACAD drawings to load up or save.  Man that was frustrating and probably one of the reasons the company wasn't that profitable to pay us benefits.

I've seen pride and arrogance in the larger company I've worked for, but its diluted by the good people and at least I couldn't see it as a direct attack on my paycheck/benefits.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

>>I remember the owner ran the shared office drive (project files, ACAD, etc) from a USB hard drive attached to his computer because he didn't trust anyone.  He would get pissed if we suggested ways to speed up the system, but would rather everyone waste hours per day waiting for ACAD drawings to load up or save. <<

Close, but actually not the craziest thing I've seen. Stupid tho. Hardly locked down at all.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

(OP)
Just getting back from the weekend...I wasn't around a computer all weekend so couldn't keep up with the thread.

One, Pittguy is a reference to where I grew up...outside the Pittsburgh (PA) area.  Left a long time ago but part of steeler/pittsburgh nation for life...so there you go.

Good points continue.  I definately understand the point about the family business and ego/pride getting in the way.  I think it will be OK on this front as I have met with the 'guy' in charge several times and get none of the impression he gets in the way too much.  In fact, it almost seems as though he is looking for someone to share the business with in this position.  Plus, none of his kids are involved in anything related to engineering so I don't think there will be much to worry about from that aspect.  It's almost as though he is looking for a protege.

As far as the pride part of it goes...I have that now in my medium sized firm.  I guess it would be concentrated more in a small firm but definately not something that is localized to a smaller place by any means!  

My wife and I talked a lot about this and decided we were going to give it a try.  We decided we would regret it more to not even try then to try and fail.  At worst, I will end up with good experience more closely related to the field I want to be in and at best, I could end up being a big player in a small operation.  Most of what annoys me about what I do now is directly related to being part of a medium/bigger firm.  Sure, I might be trading some misery for different misery but at least I have to try!

Plus, we are young and have a few years left to recover from one sort of risky career move before we start picking out our hammocks on the beach somewhere for retirement.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

@MainMan10

You have obviously experienced some small company shenanigans similar to what I have. I agree that there is pride and arrogance at larger organizations, but it does not normally overtake every aspect of daily operations. One arrogant owner or wife of the VP at a smaller company can make life extremely miserable for everyone around. At least in larger operations, that can be tempered by going through alternative chains of command.

Like I said in my original post on this thread, no perfect organization to work for, just trying to present all aspects to the OP that I have experienced over the years.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

"Small" is often in the eye of the beholder and mind.  In the US, a "small" company is defined as any entity that is less than 500 heads.  I've worked at companies with less than 5 heads, and companies larger than 2000 heads.  

Stratification and pidgeon-holing is almost always up to you; your own interests, and personality is what drives what you become.  If you cannot be pidgeon-holed, you almost never will.  I've always been a JOATMON, and the closest title anyone can pin on me is "analyst."   

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

As mentioned above, it is good to know who many people are family members of the owner, and if they are upper management. If you don't hit it off with one of them, soon they all will be against you. Try to meet as many of the employees as possible, especially the ones that you will work directly with, even if it means making a return visit.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

Small companies are less likely to be publicly traded, and hence less likely to have disinterested idiots for shareholders. That can be worth its weight in gold- take it from anybody who has been laid off in a vain management attempt to boost the share value by cutting "headcount"...  Avoiding public companies can translate into far more practical job security than is provided by the financial robustness and deep pockets a large company seemingly offers.

Small companies are great for people who prefer to learn by doing.  Large companies are better for people who like to learn by being taught.

Which one you prefer depends on who you are, what's important to you, and how you prefer to work.  

The benefits concern is a big and very practical one in the US- not so much in the rest of the world, where most essential healthcare is covered by taxes.  Here in Canada, virtually nobody in the private sector has a defined benefit pension plan any more, and those that do will probably lose it soon enough.  Outside of that, the difference between top-notch benefits and poor ones (i.e. assuming you are an employee rather than a contractor and hence get them) are at most few grand a year- not a big factor in deciding where to work.

 

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

Most of the concerns about 'small' or 'family' businesses can occur in larger firms.

Instead of 'family' just insert 'manager & their cronies' or similar.

Heck, I know of someone with an 'out of control' dept manger in the federal US govt doing many of the things that some here seem to associate with only small firms.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

KENAT,
"""I know of someone with an 'out of control' dept manger in the federal US govt"""

Does this guy supervise feeding frenzies?
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

Be careful OP, wanting a protege and seeking a partner are two very different things.  I would probably want to define these intentions upfront if you're taking the job for ownership reasons.  I've seen a lot of proteges that were merely donkeys chasing a carrot hung in front of their face.  And even if the owner did give up a portion, would it be at a fair price?

Good luck to you!

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

I work in a small company, and I like the atmosphere alot. And I do get to wear different hats and learn many fields. Problem though about the competetiveness and low revenue, can be unstable at times.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

"I would probably want to define these intentions upfront if you're taking the job for ownership reasons."

Be a little careful in keeping your intentions close to the vest at some organizations. Your goal to become part owner could possibly be seen as a threat and might not work in your favor. Small company politics are a tricky balancing act in most instances.

RE: Opportunity at a Small Company

I've read all the replies and, unless I'm missing something, I haven't heard what industry sector this small company is involved in. IMO, this should play a role in your decision. Is the company focused on a particular market segment that is subject to cyclical business trends or are they diverse in nature? Wouldn't hurt to look 3-5 years down the road. For example, years ago coal fired power plant business in the US was booming - not only in plant construction and re-vamp, but also in ancillary businesses such as NOX reduction and fluidized bed technologies. The DOE was shelling out grant money to "clean coal" related projects hand over fist. Many Engineering firms (large and small) that once focused on coal fired power plants have consolidated with other divisions or have disappeared completely. Now, the DOE grants are focused on alternative energy sources. In addition, EPA mandates (not overseen by congress) have fueled regulations that can stop on a dime with the change of an administration. The aerospace industry is another example, shifting heavily from Defense and other government related contracts to commercial contracts over the years. Some companies have handled the transition, some have not.

The one thing that is certain in today's economic climate is uncertainty. This applies to all companies large and small. Personally, I think that a well managed small company affords much greater opportunities than larger ones that pigeon-hole their workers. However, I would make certain that the company you're considering is involved with a market sector that still has growth potential or has the ability to diversify into other sectors if it is not.

Good luck!

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