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Do engineers make good managers?
13

Do engineers make good managers?

Do engineers make good managers?

(OP)
I saw this news clip today and thought I would throw it over the fence into the engineering group of pit bulls.
I will now step back and watch.noevil

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/1012330.article?cmpid=TE01

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Sometimes, often not.  Interpersonal skills are often lacking.  

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

The trouble is that very very few people make good managers. So few that trying to work out whether engineers make better or worse managers is a bit difficult.

This is made worse by the fact that many good engineers fight shy of becoming managers, possibly because they have so little respect for them and possibly because many engineers are far happier engineering than managing.

It might well be that if engineers had no choice and were forced to be managers they might, as a class, prove to be better than others.
Sadly, there is no evidence for this either.

Perhaps I should say, I have only personal experience to go buy here.
In fact while I know of only two or three people (in nearly 35 years) who were good managers they lasted only a short time (less that 3 years in total) before moving onwards and upwards or out sideways.

None of them were engineers.

On the other hand, some of the bad managers were engineers. One problem I noted then was that they tended to give full rein to there engineering instincts and very little weight to other factors.

In most companies there is an Engineering department and a Sales and Marketing department.
In one company they tried the experiment of an Engineering and Marketing department.
They created a number of great products that no one bought.
And that's something I have witnessed several times before.   

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Managing people and budgets is a skill set.  Performing an engineering analysis requires a different skill set.  It is not a foregone conclusions that people with one of the skill sets will have any of the other skill set.  Sometimes an individual will have a great deal of both and will be an exceptional manager.

Other times an engineer will lack the skills to be an acceptable manager and will be a train wreck.  Or a manager will lack all analytic skills and let his touchy-feely mouth overload is non-analytic butt.

It makes me crazy when top management just assumes that someone is a good engineer that they'll be a good manager.  It makes me just as crazy when they say that their pet MBA is managing people, not processes so the idiot MBA doesn't need to even speak the language of engineering.  Neither extreme has ever worked well.

David

 

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

You know what you see, and being an engineer, you tend to see a lot of engineers.  However, a simple example is the US Congress.  A huge bunch of these guys can't even manage their zippers.  And almost none of them are engineers.  

One of the biggest hurdles for managers is determining the risk/reward tradeoff.  The people with the zipper problems can't even seem to think there's a tradeoff.

TTFN
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RE: Do engineers make good managers?

BTW - I am a manager and get along WELL (I think) with everyone from field carpenters to the President of the company and have been so commended.  But have had a few HR "types" (I would like to use a different not very polite word) tell me that I am too blunt.  Of course, these are the same people that take two hours you tell you "Yes" or "No".  I don't have the time for that BS!!

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

2
Out of a decent book I read recently, from a retired GM executive.

"He described a change of command when the squadron was taken over by a modest, humble Lieutenant Colonel who received a battlefield promotion in WW II.
His name was Art Bauer and his day job was Hose Man #2 at the San Francisco Fire Department.  The squadron was composed of ambitious graduate students at Cal and Stanford who were shocked that such an uneducated man would be their commanding officer.  After the Change of Command ceremony, Colonel Bauer called his 20-odd junior officers together and gave the following talk as Bob Lutz remembered it.  
Colonel Bauer said: "I'm going to stay out of your way because you are all more capable than this old officer.  I don't expect you to respect me for my flying ability, because it's not at your level.  But I do want and demand your support and respect.  Not for me, but for the uniform I wear and the rank that is on it. You gentlemen, not I, are going to run this squadron and I don't want you to let me down."
Bob Lutz said the doubts and snickering soon stopped.  And, in 18 months Bauer's squadron was rated number one in the entire Marine Corps Reserve."

Sometimes in management getting the right team and pointing them in the right direction is all you need for success.

Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Engineering exists.  Management doesn't.  Don't confuse management with leadership.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Engineers make better Engineering Managers than do MBAs.
Of this, we can all be certain.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

There is truer statement than that above by Hokie66. I may well use if as my signature from now on.   

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

In support of castmetal's post above,

Quote:

The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it. - Theodore Roosevelt

Maui

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Yep.
That accounts for it.
By some fluke of statistics I have encountered 3 who can come even close to fulfilling this requirement.

The trick to anything is not finding good managers, it is keeping the company afloat knowing full well you will have to do it with bad managers. That is the miracle of any human enterprise.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

I am a "manager" but consider myself a "guider"

Trying to:
Show how to do things
Grow your career
Learn stuff
Get along with others
Listen when you cry
Point you in the right direction so you may learn on your own
Make your life less miserable
Communicate efeectively

and TAKE OVER MY JOB when this sorry A$$ departs this world....

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Mike,
That is far from my definition of a manager.  If your description is accurate, you are an engineer and a leader, not a manager.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

A leader inspires us to follow their direction. They do this mainly by example and charisma.

A manager organises. They make sure work is scheduled, raw materials are available, staff is allocated, reporting and financial needs and requirements are met etc etc. They do this by being organised and methodical and maybe analytical.

Being good at one is a distinct advantage to being good at the other.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Quote:

They make sure work is scheduled, raw materials are available, staff is allocated, reporting and financial needs and requirements are met etc etc. They do this by being organised and methodical and maybe analytical.
Or they delegate this to more capable people, if they are smarter than the average and recognise they fall far short of "good" manager status.
Analyse what they do and you'll find they don't actually work any of this out themselves. They are enablers rather than doers.
Sales and Marketing have told him what they want.
The manager now approaches engineering to get it done.
"Mike, how much time do you need?"
"Pete, who do you need in the team?"
"OK guys, how much money do we need?"
The engineers feed him their answers (suitably prepared so he can create a Power Point for the directors) and then he steps back and lets the troops (engineers) get on with it.
If he is an average run of the mill manager his being a "good" or adequate manager depends on him not interfering or trying to do things he isn't equipped to do.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

In my experience, most engineers make for poor managers, even engineering managers. I have worked for "engineering managers" who were little more than glorified designers. Far too often, promotions in most offices are based upon politics and buddy systems in place. This is so unfortunate because the direct and indirect reports suffer the most and often leave over this kind of stupidity. From what I have seen, many engineers are introverts who are detailed problem solvers and thinkers in general. They are great at dissecting the issues at hand, but get lost too easily when it comes to managing workers or large projects (realize that I, too, am an engineer so am labeling myself). Now, without stereotyping, I realize that there are exceptions in all cases.

Having said all that, I do not believe the solution is to go the MBA route in engineering departments. All I have seen over my career is bean counters making messes of things all in the name of the financial bottom line. Worse yet, I have worked at places that had product engineers answering as direct reports to manufacturing managers. That was absolutely wrong, but no one seemed to care.

I think the answer is, in many engineering departments, to have the manager be a person who has risen through the ranks of engineering, but who also displays some good managerial skills as well. Please don't make me ever work under a manufacturing or production manager ever again.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

I think for an engineer to be a manager he/she needs to forget the engineering work. The role of a manager is to plan, lead and control, amongst other things.
If an engineer wants to remain an engineer in a managerial position then they should not be there in the first place.
Another point is that a manager is not born a manager. Engineering qualifications and so many years experience does not make a manager automatically. Unfortunately most managers are made managers through this path without ever getting training as managers.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

2
Some people are good engineers.
Some are good leaders.
Some are both.
Most are neither.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

"If an engineer wants to remain an engineer in a managerial position then they should not be there in the first place."

I had this at my last job. The "plant manager" was basically an overblown ME with an outsized ego. He wanted myself and another guy to design the machinery we built, but only after he micromanaged us and belabored every minute detail of our projects. No freedom within our engineering department at all, and I was glad when they downsized me out the door.

Basically, the guy was not ready to let go of the engineering reigns. How many plant managers can you name that have an active seat of SolidWorks on their computer and continue to mess with active product designs all while engineers try to correct their design mistakes (making a huge mess of things too)? The guy really made the place into a frustrating zoo by his reluctance to fully step into the managerial side of things and take his hands off engineering.

Thankfully, I no longer work there...

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Greg

I saw quite a few of them in this thread.

Some made by people who clearly have no more understanding of a real management role than they accuse their managers of re engineering.

There is an old truism. If your doing it yourself, you ain't managing.

A managers role is to allocate tasks and resources as appropriate to best utilise the available resources. The choices may not seem good to those looking at the micro rather than the macro picture.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Must be hitting too close to home for some.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

In my experience, probably only one in five engineers make good managers.  But in my experience, one guy can only really manage four engineers well in the first place, so the ratios work out.

Non-engineers managing engineers are worse than engineers with bad management skills managing engineers.  

my .02.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

2
It's much easier to teach a good engineer the soft skills they need to have to become an effective manager than it is to teach a business major the technical skills they would need to become an effective engineer. Companies like Caterpillar operate using this principal, which is one of the reasons why they are such a successful company. They understand.

Maui

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Successful companies with a strong engineering content usually start with better than average engineers to begin with. It may bias the figures one way or another.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Successful companies are generally reasonably strong in all areas. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. An element of being in the right or wrong places at particular times can skew the result a bit but overall it takes good skills across the board and teamwork.

Bitching about or actively undermining other departments does damage teamwork.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Do engineers make good managers?

I've had a number of managers, who were engineers.  They were mostly good managers but only a few were outstanding managers and leaders.  Most stink at leadership, which is something I think people can learn, if they have the desire.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

I think a lady named Dana Pike said it best at an agility seminar I was at a couple of years ago.
A dog / handler team were having some trouble negotiating a sequence, and the lateness with which the handler was delivering her cues resulted in the dog barking, anticipating, guessing and ultimately offering (I.e. taking) several incorrect obstacles and off courses.
The handler froze, shrugged, turned around and looked to Dana for advice.
Dana said, "Well, *somebody* has to be the leader.".
In similar fashion, when a decision stalls everyone else, a leader is the one that steps up and says, "Well, I have no idea if this is right, but unless you tell me something different, here is what we're doing."
Who knew you could learn that much from a dog?

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Did the dog have an MBA and are animals exempt in your world?
Oh, sorry. The dog was the smart one and the dog owner the MBA. Got it. All's right with the world. Perfect analogy to the real world where the rank and file routinely save the day from management disasters.

PS I had to go back and worry at this one because I couldn't figure out why someone would bring their dog to an agility seminar.... the picture of an MBA hating Snorgy negotiating cones, chutes, slides etc. flashed into my mind when I realised it was a "dog agility" seminar. If you called it a dog training class my PC (Pre Coffee) mind would have done somewhat better.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

I would follow up on this thread but what I would say would off topic and more a pub conversation.
Still, the message I have is that it is my opinion that one sure sign of a leader is someone who will make a decision when nobody else will.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

SNORGY, good point.  Many won't make a decision out of fear of making a mistake though.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

*A* decision is always better than *indecision*.

It often comes down to Client control.  When I need information or commitment from a Client on one of my projects, I usually advise Client, "Unless instructed otherwise by (date), then base on our conversation / correspondence dated (date), we are proceeding on this basis...".  The same holds true within project teams.  However, that does come with the price that, should the decision be wrong, then the decision was *mine*.  That's why they pay me what they perceive to be the big bucks.

Hopefully, my decisions are good ones.

Like not getting an MBA, for example.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

I disagree to a point about a leader always making decisions when others won't, or at least with regard to that being implied as a good thing.

Shooting from the hip with insufficient data is bad.

Not making a decision by a critical time is also bad.

In my opinion, the correct procedure is to collect the data, do the analysis, make the decision in time. Easy. Harder when time constraints precede full data acquisition and analysis and making the best from what you have.

On a case by case basis, do you walk away, do you make an interim decision or do you commit and wear the consequences.  That is where real leadership comes in.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Pat,
I need to come and work where you work.  To be in a place where doing the right thing is actually considered to be the right thing to do would be a refreshing change for me.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

SNORGY

I'm retired now, but my version of right has had me both rewarded and punished over the years, depending on the character and ability of my boss at the time.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Do engineers make good managers?

There is the dithering method of decision taking which seems to find favour with some managers which is to wait until all the options are closed off except one and then that is the one finally decided on with the get-out clause of "There was nothing else I could do".
Sometimes, making a decision with limited information is preferable to no decision at all.

And of course, "No good deed goes unpunished" could well be rewritten as "No good decision goes unpunished."

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Sometimes you have to make decisions on insufficient data to improve a bad situation.  Those are hard decisions and if they were easy decisions, more people would engage those situations rather than run from them.

I've endured the consequences of my decisions deemed wrong by management.  They were right for the company but wrong for building fiefdoms.  Somehow my actions in looking out for the company were, and continue to be, deemed inappropriate by some people.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Pamela,

You have just described my week. hairpull3
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Despite my previous post, in the real world, almost all decisions are made with some but not all data really required. The real skill is deciding when to make the decision. ie balancing the cost of delay vs the cost of getting it wrong, vs the odds against getting it wrong.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Do engineers make good managers?

"It's much easier to teach a good engineer the soft skills they need to have to become an effective manager than it is to teach a business major the technical skills they would need to become an effective engineer. Companies like Caterpillar operate using this principal, which is one of the reasons why they are such a successful company. They understand.

Maui"

I have worked at Caterpillar for 5 years and this is only slightly true. The location I was at was run by arrogant engineers, but the people skills were not there. Most were only trying to make the biggest impression on their immediate supervisor to move up the ladder as quickly as possible. This usually involved ignoring the day to day workers below and their needs, while padding their own resumes with industry catch phrases and technical sounding fluff. If you want to call that management, feel free, but I would not go back to Caterpillar if you begged me to.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Pat, sometimes in my world, there has been no time to do much thinking beyond making a decision and running with it.  When the crappola has hit the fan or is near hitting it, you make the best decision possible to mitigate a process disaster and leave the shouting for post-dust settling.

tz101, I've known some who contracted with Caterpillar, who had much the same thought.  When they told me some of what they were trying to do one could only shake their head and move on to the next topic.  A retired engineer recently said Corporate America began to change in 1984 by his observations.  About that time, people became more interested in politicin' to climb the ladder than doing a good job.  Their moral values reflected badly on them and betrayed their real motivation, which was more money and power.  I think some are still interested in doing a good job but I wouldn't know how to do a SWAG of how many are.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

tZ101,
I tend to disagree with you. Soft skills are the hardest to teach and the most difficult for people to change. Why would you need to teach business major engineering skills. The role of a manager is to manage resources as Pat said, these being human assets or intellectual knowledge.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Peppinu, you disagree with which part of what I stated about Caterpillar? I only stated factual observations from my time spent with their company. I did not say anything about teaching soft skills versus managerial skills. I only stated that the "managers" I worked under at Caterpillar were engineers who were outside of their realm.

Maui had earlier said that Caterpillar is successful because they take engineers and make them managers, and I differ from that opinion, having worked under their dysfunctional system.

Caterpillar is not a very good organization to work for, unless you are a production worker on the shop floor. Everyone is a number and can be easily replaced in their eyes. No caring or real development of people that I could see. Only stating the truth.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Tz,
Please accept my appologies, I did not realise taht it was a quote. I agree with you.
I do not agree as you said that an engineer automaticaly makes a good manager because he/she has been managing projects and has been doing it for some time.
A manager is a manger if they manage people. Some managers are even better because they have the charisma of leadership. A good manger can manage in whatever field. As I said earlier if an engineer is in a managing role he/she needs to spend time managing rather that doing engineering work. They go in opposite directions.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

I have not worked for Caterpillar, but was offered a job there many years ago for a mid-management level position. Although I declined their job offer, it was obvious that they had a preference for promoting people internally when possible. And the individual who would have been my boss stated during the interview that their goal is to teach their engineering professionals the soft skills needed to become effective managers before promoting them to these positions, rather teaching business majors the engineering concepts they would need to understand to effectively guide their engineers. This does not mean, however, that it always works out as planned, as stated above by tz101.

tz101, what exactly were the backgrounds of the managers that you referred to above? What type of business training (if any) did they have?

Maui

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

I'm going to guess that maybe the corporate goal at Caterpillar is to train engineers in managerial skills. It just did not work out in practice at the facility I worked at. The thing I saw there is that there were always new directives coming down from upper managers, but personal accountability seemed to be lacking in making sure they were followed through on. Like I said, the people skills lacked and engineering non-managers were just "another brick in the wall".

Caterpillar was always big on the latest fads like ISO9000, lean manufacturing, etc. They also provided top notch equipment and tools. We always had excellent training in software, hardware, and techniques. Where they were sorely lacking was in the people managing department. It was never stated, but I always got the feeling that upper management felt that once they provided the facility and tools, basically any "cog" could be plugged into that system and be successful. No caring or support, just a lot of being talked down to by proud engineers who had been made "managers." Overall, a cold and demanding environment.

Maui, my guess to the managers I worked under is that they all had BSME, maybe Masters degrees in some engineering discipline. I saw them going about the business at hand of making sure departmental financial goals were met, and that various projects were being completed on a timely basis. As far as the business training, it appeared like they had a good grasp on filling out spreadsheets, flowcharts and meeting aforementioned goals, but what is management if you have no people skills or cannot develop the workers underneath you?

Don't want to sound like sour grapes, but you asked so I am answering.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

A former colleague and current friend had great experiences with Caterpillar. They paid for him to spend several months doing interesting and clever stuff. No goals, no targets, no plans, no reports, just be here and be clever using our equipment. They repeated this the following year.

- Steve
 

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Why do we beat ourselves by stereotyping our profession with themes like this?  Anybody with an aptitude of managerial skills, in any profession, can be a manager.   Typically one's passion will accumulate the skills needed to do the job.  This is a personal choice and not based on stereo typical views of one's profession.  However, I do agree with Maui that (in my interpretation) that the manager should have some background in the area that s/he is managing.  Otherwise, making decisions may be difficult without the right knowledge.   

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"  

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

This is a really interesting topic to me. I've been thinking a lot about where I'd like my career to go, and I really think I'd like to take on a management or leadership role in the future.

I would tend to agree with the general consensus that being an engineer doesn't necessarily make you good or bad at being a manager. Engineering and management are different skill sets. That being said, I think it's important for a manager to have experience in the "front line", so to speak, to be able to manage effectively. So, if you take an experienced engineer, and train them in leadership and administration, you've got a deadly candidate for an engineering manager or director.

I ready a few years back in Maclean's Magazine that 55 of Canada's top 100 CEOs were engineers by training. So, do engineers make good managers? No - not on their own. But with the right training, they can make fantastic managers.

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

While most skills can be improved by education/training/practice...

I can't help thinking there are some traits that good managers/leaders have which perhaps can't simply be taught.

So, I find even the suggestion that 'any experienced Engineer' can be trained to be a great engineering manager or director just a little concerning.

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

I humbled myself today and apologized to a man I am training to help me, who I obviously rude to earlier this week. And what do I find active again today... The timing of life doesn't get any better, eh? smile

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

Engineers don't automatically make good managers, nor are they automatically bad at it either. It may be true that the studying of engineering subjects with the emphasis on math and physical science, doesn't give the graduating engineer any particular skill in managing other engineers. It does help him manage the quality of work, although some behavioral science would probably help to get it done in a timely fashion too. But there is also the attitude of the engineering manager - does he care about people? Does he want to help them succeed? Does he give credit where it is due? Or is he just interested in designing and building something on time and on budget that works?

When managing "knowledge workers" like engineers, we need to be aware that the better ones are motivated by achievement, recognition, career advancement, - i.e. the higher levels of Maslow's triangle. The success of the project is their success too, and it will be on their resume for years to come.

But are they given recognition for good work along the way to keep them motivated? The manager needs them productive, and accurate. Quality and quantity, and on-time to keep others synchronized. This is what should be expected (why thank them when that's what we pay them for?), but since it is difficult to achieve, as a manager you should provide recognition to the appropriate person(s) every mini-milestone that is actually achieved. If the wrong people get the recognition, this can make matters worse so be careful. If you find this task enjoyable, you might make a good manager (there is obviously more to the job than just this, but this will help).

RE: Do engineers make good managers?

The biggest flaw I have seen with Engineer managers is a tendency to either extensively micromanage, or be completely hands-off. Sometimes in the same manager.

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