×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

What if I don't want to be a leader?
13

What if I don't want to be a leader?

What if I don't want to be a leader?

(OP)
Is that so bad?  I like being an engineer.  I like creating stuff and analyzing stuff and generally working on my own.  I understand the need for team leaders but I honestly do not feel that my personality is fit for a leadership role.  Quite frankly, I don't like to give direction and my people skills aren't my strong suit.

The problem is that as I progress in my career and gain seniority (10 years experience now), I feel more and more pressure to take on the role as a leader.  Job postings in my pay range require me to "lead a team" of engineers and designers.  My boss is consistently pushing me to develop my leadership skills.  I'm asked to take the lead on new projects.

Everything I read online about leadership gives me the vibe that I am "supposed" to WANT leadership.  It's apparently EVERYONE's goal in life to be in charge and run the show.  Then I read stuff telling me to be true to myself and find the right career fit.  So what do I do?  Work hard to become leadership material even though it doesn't come naturally?  Should I force the square peg in the round hole?  Do I need to become a leader to make it as an engineer?  Is a leadership role simply an inevitable step in an engineering career?  If so, have I chose the wrong field?  Will my career be stalled or even derailed if I avoid opportunities that include leadership?

wtf?

I've been wrestling with these questions for days now.  Please tell me I'm not the only engineer that feels this way.

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

You've only been wrestling with it for days?  This started to come up when I'd only been working for about 9 months (which is pretty pathetic really).

Yes there tends to be a general theme/trend that for advancement you need to take on some level of management/leadership...  If you think about it, for many jobs/careers it may be the only path to significant advancement.  I mean, how far can being a cashier in a store take you?

However, with Engineering if you work it right, and have the right employer you can minimize this and keep it in an area that holds some interest for you.

For instance, while I think it's fallen to the wayside a bit, at one point we had separate technical and management 'streams'.  You could in theory reach VP level but in the technical stream.  Now you'd still have some kind of management/leadership role but it might be things like leading the IP/Patent review board etc. and in theory only take up a very small amount of your time.

We have a couple of guys in their 50's and more in their 40's that are still in purely technical roles with no significant management responsibilities.  They may have to take charge of their own project - or their elements of a larger project - but baring giving advice to junior folk etc. they don't have any real management responsibilities.  

Now I will say that some of them may not be getting paid as much as if they'd gone to the dark side, but I suspect they do OK.

There are a few members on this site that have got themselves niches as hardcore analysts/experts etc. and don't seem to have collected management duties along the way.  What effect it may have had on their pay compared to if they had become managers I don't know, but at least a couple of them claim to be doing OK.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

"It's apparently EVERYONE's goal in life to be in charge and run the show". Not true.
Don't believe EVERYTHING you read.

If leadership is your thing, someday you'll be a leader, but don't rush it. Do what you enjoy now.

Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Pressure from who specifically? The personal motivation behind making the move into the management ranks is often tied to increased pay, prestige, and having a larger presence in the overall decision making process. Making your presence more widely known in the industry is also a side benefit, and the increased yearly bonusues can be substantial. For example, when I initially made the jump to the executive ranks my yearly bonus went from roughly 3% (if we even got one) to 34% in one step (and I always made more than this each year because it was based on performance). Moving up in an organization from an engineering role is usually accomplished by entering the management ranks in some capacity, and this is not necessarily a bad thing provided you are a properly skilled and competent individual.

Some of those that I have seen obtain their MBA and enter the management ranks couldn't engineer their way out of a paper bag. Not only were they questionable engineers, they were downright aweful managers. One MBA in particular was a micromanaging dimwit who would have been more effective if we made him stand in a pot in the corner and watered him twice a day.

One of the biggest downsides is that in some organizations they will expect you to live the job. Traveling can take up a substantial amount of your time, and may involve weekends. Whenever they decide that they need you, you are expected to drop whatever it is that you're doing and attend to their problems. In some cases they may expect you to tow the company line to the point where you actually trade your own ethics in for the job, which is something that I was never willing to do. This is one of the reasons I no longer work for that particular employer.

You have to choose what suits you, and management is not for everybody. If you're happy where you are, there is no fundamental reason why you should make the jump. It's your life. Live it as you see fit.

Maui    

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

"Now I will say that some of them may not be getting paid as much as if they'd gone to the dark side, but I suspect they do OK."

Yes be true to your self & the emperor(From Star Wars) will demote you.

You need to work the politics, & stay on the good side of management.
that normally entails more responsibility. if that includes teaching excuse me leading a group so be it.

Mfgenggear

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Story of my career. (For reference, I've been in the aerospace industry for 12 years, and in current my current position for 4.) I left my last position because all the work I loved doing was slowly taken away from me and I was put in charge of managing contracts to "lead" others doing the work I wanted to do. My current position is better, but I still struggle with it on at least a weekly basis. If you are good at what you do, people will want to have to lead a team of people doing that, etc. I just really want to keep my head down and do the work.  

When the future's architectured
By a carnival of idiots on show
You'd better lie low

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

It's a trade, though.  Typically, most large companies will have a purely technical career path, but it will definitely not be as well-paid as the management path.  I've been put in that position several times, and have managed to claw my way back to the technical side each time.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

mfgenggear - when I say I expect they do OK it's because I actually saw one of their salaries a few years back (they left it in the copier or something) and it was well into triple figures & well over 50% more than I was making for an essentially similar position though with a lot more directly relevant experience.

Sadly our new engineering director is very much project management focused and his solution to not enough staff/too much work has been to make a bunch of new people project managers - myself included.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

2
Sometimes leading is unavoidable.
I note you don't say "managing" which might be something different.

If you don't lead, who will? Someone less capable than you? And they will be influencing what you do?

Leading usually means doing what you normally do but taking some responsibility for and oversight of what others around you are doing; possibly with more authority to assert your experience,  and it is not necessarily the same as "managing" where you may have to put aside what you do and enjoy doing to do something else altogether.

Somewhere along the line you ought to find to be a leader is to be recognised as an authority and as an experienced engineer whose views are officially taken more seriously and having greater scope to apply your skills and influence how others develop and apply their skills.
This ought to be something you can enjoy doing.
In all probability, if you are at this level you probably are already being a leader so some extent.
Take a look at what you do now compared to what you used to do when you started and see to what extent this is true.

Management is something else again. (Unless management are proposing "Leadership" as unpaid "Management". So it depends on just how your duties will change and how expectations will change).

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Let me take the flip side of this argument of being a leader.  Actually I'm surprised that your management is pushing you to be a leader type if your character seems that it is not a good fit.  If you're a good worker bee, usually they'll keep you in that role until you ask to lead.  However, you're a leader in your own right.  You still dictate how the design is done and you are the expert in the product you are designing.  Being a manger is not always necessarily a leader and vice versa.  Mangers tend to look after their people, make sure the schedule is on track, and clear any barriers that their people come against.  Leaders are on the front end of the project dictating how things should be done and what direction the team should be going.  Now with that said, yes there are positions with both attributes depending on the person.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"  

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

I was always under the firm belief that there's two different kinds of people that go into engineering; Design Engineers and Management Engineers, with the key difference being how much you trust your fellow engineers.

Management engineers trust their fellow engineers, focusing on the times that trust has been rewarded. Their motivation is more team oriented and deflecting problems. I'd never want one of them to be responsible for stamping anything, but they keep the process moving forward.

Design engineers don't have this trust, focusing more on the possible situations of failure. Their motivations are more efficiency and process... not anything to do with the customer. These are the stamping engineers, the guys that keep you honest, and normally the ones that stay way too late and mumble to themselves a lot (at-least that's what I do).

Either way, you miss-place one for the other and you get a crappy manager or a bad designer.

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

I'm in the situation Kenat describes, 51 year old pretty much left to do weird technical stuff as I see fit, so long as everything that needs to be done gets done. One thing you might bear in mind that after 10 years doing the exact same job a certain ennui might set in, so you do need fresh challenges, in my case I went into a different technical field than I had been up til then.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

(Strangely enough Greg you were one of the members here who sprang to mind, as was Twoballcane, I just didn't want to volunteer names in case I'd previously misunderstood.  However, as you both felt the need to post...)

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

One problem is that most who make senior management had an overwhelming desire to get there. Some are so egocentric that they cannot imagine others have other aspirations in life.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

3
Bradpa77....there is a confusion here between "leadership" and "management".  Often when management asks you to take on a "leadership" role, they usually mean that they want you to "manage" something.  They view your technical skills as being portable to the management of other techies. Usually not so.

I have been in one of those larger companies with a "dual career path".  The higher one goes up the food chain, the more divergent the career path becomes.

In my case I was in a company that was started by engineers and managed by "working" engineers.  The technical proficiency of an employee was valued equally or above their "management" capability.  It had one primary bean counter who laid a terrific framework within which engineers could be engineers and management was almost a by-product.  Absolute genious.  

As the company grew, the company diverged from its own "career path".  More bean counters came in.  They became weeds in a garden of lush grass.  The weeds took over...everything still appeared green, but the underlying root stock slowly died away, taking with it the lushness that was the company.  Their only interest was in maintaining a green color...not protecting the root stock.

I have almost always been in a "leadership" position.  I don't necessarily play well with others and I sure as hell don't enjoy "managing" anything, yet I have held very responsible positions (VP, Sr. VP, Pres.) all without being much of a "manager".  I would much rather take one or more young engineers in the field and let them work with me than to tell them to go do the work and bring me some results.  Leadership by example still works.  

Engineering is a progressive mentorship profession, not a "throw them to wolves and see who survives" management mentality.  Take on a "leadership" role of mentoring and passing along your knowledge.  You will likely find that you'll achieve a great deal of respect from your charges that will make you successful in that role.

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

I was once told that if you are to be respected as an engineer in the community a leader you shall be.

Agree with Ron "leadership" and "management" are not on in the same and should not be confused. A "team leader" is not definition of a leader but a small manager, a leader needs no title.  

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

To be a leader you must be respected.

To be a manager you must have authority, but it becomes easier if you have both and are both. They are neither mutually inclusive nor mutually exclusive of each other.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Me too...

I was pushed into management in my late 20's and fled from it as fast as I could, changing departments, divsions and countries (but maintaining the comfort of the same employer).

Then it started to happen again as I was formally managing new graduates with little or no experience in our area.

These days I'm in my mid 40's and almost a solo pilot. I get respect from the team I'm in, both older and younger folk. I think I earn less than those a grade above me, but we don't talk about these things. I do know that the job ads in the trade press all seem to want more management duties and pay less.

- Steve
 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

2
My interpretation of the OP is that the context of his / her situation is along the lines of being compelled to do more management, delegation and coordination and less of the hands-on number-crunching.

There is a certain sense of inner peace with being left alone to do your own thing, knowing that whatever else is going on around you, at least what *you* are doing is correct and, presumably, enjoyable.  It's a darn sight less stressful than being held accountable for the errors or the missed deadlines of the subordinates in your charge.  It is also more interesting to be doing the "fun stuff".

Several years ago, I "led" a team of 75 mechanical engineers.  My role was to provide them with non-glare monitors, comfortable chairs and mechanical pencils; mediate arguments; as well as to buy them all dinner at the Christmas party (which left me $3,000.00 out of pocket until the new year).  I absolutely hated it.  It sucked.  It wasn't "engineering" at all - it was parenting.

I am a good Project Engineer / Manager, but I *hate* the administration / reporting / client interface that goes with it; all about cost and schedule and billing and nothing about design.  If that is what the OP (bradpa77) means by a "leadership" position, then by all means just say no until you actually *want* that in your working life.  It's sure not for me, and not for everyone.  And it's tough to get out of it if you have the misfortune of being perceived as good at it.  Sometimes, even to this day, I still get dragged out of "Project Management Retirement" to actually run a job - usually one that's begun to go sideways and needs to be "fixed".

This is one where you have to stick to your guns, and take advantage of every opportunity to prove your competence and value in the things you actually like to do, thereby deflecting attention away from the skills you have in areas that you don't particularly like.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

(OP)
Many thanks to all of you!  I got some great responses here.  It's very much appreciated.  I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who worries about this stuff and I'm also glad to see that I can have a career in engineering where I don't have to be completely in charge.   

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

2
For what it's worth, when you are ready to be a leader.  This is something I keep above my computer where ever I work.

Boss vs Leader

A boss drives his men
A leader coaches them

A boss says "I"
A leader says "we"

A boss assigns tasks
A leader sets the pace

A boss says "Get here on time!"
A leader gets there ahead of time

A boss  fixes blame for the breakdown
A leader fixes the breakdown

A boss knows how it's done
A leader shows how

A boss makes work a drudgery
A leader makes it a game

A boss says "Go!"
A leader says "Let's go!"

The world needs leaders
Nobody wants a boss

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Sounds like the kind of post it notes our VP has plastered around his office.

Lets just say he needs the reminders at times.

I'm inclined to think that anyone that needs constant reminders of that stuff doesn't need to be either a boss or a leader - reminds me of Barney's motivational posters from 'how I met your mother'.

However, I'll give Cass a pass (assuming she wants her manager to read it, and not that it applies to her) and buy her a Shirley Temple over in the pub in case I've caused offense.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

I think that it's a terrible shortfall of our industry that we promote great engineers to managers on the assumption that great enginners = great leaders.  Another shortfall is that X years of experience means X times more likely to be a good manager/leader.  Neither couldn't be further from the truth.  Some engineers make great engineers but should never attempt to lead or manage a project.  And some engineers are actually better suited to manage/lead than they are to be technical engineers!

I have always felt that the position of Chief Engineer is something which you don't see enough of anymore in our industry.  My first job had someone in the position of Chief Engineer and was a well respected, well deserved position of honor for this individual.  They were the technical experts of the company and had the CEO approaching them with technical related matters.  They weren't expected to deal with contracts, estimating, or other PM type of tasks but were expected to know their stuff inside and out!
 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

The level of education, expertise, & experience, will dictate if a team or group of Engineers requires a Group Leader. If the level of bunch of young engineers out of college with minimal training & or experience, then there is a must for micro managing.

If the Team of engineers are season Engineers, then less micro managing & more of directing, giving estimated schedule requirements, budgets bla bla, & leading by example.
There fore morphs to more a managing position.

I like to work on my own, but it is very help full to have a group of Engineers that I can bounce issues with. That would normally be an other associate Engineer of equal or more experience. or just smarter person than I am.

Mfgenggear

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

You may well already BE a leader.  That's what your peers, your co-workers decide for themselves, and it's much different than the title conferred by the boss.  I've been the 'leader' in many places, sometimes to the disappointment of the boss and his chosen appointees.

Some leaders become managers, unfortunately not as often as I'd like to see, but somebody has to go to the meetings and get out of the way while the work is done.  A good manager gets out of the way.

old field guy

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Leaders or managers are no better humans and they do not live longer. So, there is not really an important reason to become a leader. Money can be a reason, the wish to change things can be another. But that are both things you must decide for yourself. Don't question yourself if money is not your main motivation. I work as a manager. Whether or not I'm a leader is something different. Being a manager does not make life easier and - as written above - I'm not a better human than the people who work for me.

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

This is something I also mentioned

Quote:

If you don't lead, who will? Someone less capable than you? And they will be influencing what you do?
and it is worth the repetition.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

No worries, like I said it is worth repeating.

(And since I knew it wasn't plagiarism it was obviously a case of great minds thinking alike).
I'd rather try my hand at leading and see where it leads than not try and never know.
Ducking challenges isn't a good trait. Some things you try may work out even if you are the one most surprised by it.

Take the task on the right terms and be sure you have a place to go back to if either you or management decide to give some one else a try.

The trouble is, if you duck and someone else tries and does OK, you've lost your chance to do as well or better.
  
But I'd rather be a bad leader than work for one.

At one company management told me they wanted me to work for a back stabbing brown noser.
There is often one lurking somewhere in most companies and you may not recognise them until some event or other tips you off. It is never good to find out only after you have been assigned to work under their direction.  But I had already taken this guy's measure when he presented my work to management as his own.

So I went to HR and HR told me that if I didn't want to work for him to just say so.
So I said no to management's kind offer to work for Brown Noser and they accepted that.

I find it hard to judge the impact on me for refusing to work for him (not good), but I suspect it was way better than the alternative.

I think he had thought he would get by relying on people like me or maybe he actually believed his own hype and thought he was capable of doing the job.
Whatever.
I don't know, but maybe his underlings were not exactly playing the game. The description of him as a back stabbing brown noser is not original with me, it is a cleaned up version of how one of his "underlings" chose to describe him.
It wasn't long before he was asking for his old job back (no danger of management sending him packing).
But unless there is someone better (and if management want you they don't see it though they may not be best placed, so if you really think some one else is better say so), take your best shot.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

The best leader is one that gets you where you need to be and then no one notices that you were there.

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

KENAT, I prefer not to think of us as fools.
We may be but I'd prefer to see us as great minds.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Don't do anything out of fear or coercion.  You'll kick yourself later.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Many leaders are born with the right combination of personality and innate talent that naturally bring them to the forefront of the organization. The best ones are often humble, and have a very clear understanding of their own limitations. For example,

Quote:

The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it. - Theodore Roosevelt

and

Quote:

If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants. - Isaac Newton

Maui

 

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Even if you work by yourself you still need to lead yourself, i.e. you need to plan the work and work the plan.  You need to figure out what your end product will be, and you need to come up with an efficient way to get there.  I sense that OP does this and does not just wait for someone else to say, "and now check bearing on shaft number three."

The natural progression to this is to start mentoring others and passing on to them what you know.  The way to do this is to work them into your plan.  You tell them to check this or that, and then you check their work.  As they get more proficient, you help them decide what needs to be checked and the best methods to go about it.  You can do this with larger and larger teams and, voila, you are a leader.

 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

The only thing worse than being a bad leader yourself is being "led" by one.  That fact explains why many people reluctantly enter leadership or management positions.  That, and greed, or more properly a desire to receive compensation in better proportion to the required effort and responsibility.

It's tough to provide good directions if you don't know the way.  It's even tougher from the back seat.  Hence it's tough for a person without technical training and experience to lead others with technical training and experience.  Not impossible, but tough.  

Every engineer manages something, even if it's merely the expectations of their boss or customers.

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

This seems to me a difference between managing and leading.
Leading, to me, has an implicit assumption that the leader can do all that is asked of those being lead.
Managing is where a different set of skills are brought to facilitate the work of the team (if the manager is good. If she/he is bad then the opposite is true.) It should not be expected that a manager has the specific engineering skills the team delivers. The leader may not know all the skills necessarily but would have a far more complete knowledge of the coal face than a manager.

My point about it being better to be a bad leader than lead by a bad leader, I think, a natural aspect of people's character.
But when untried, I would rather be the one to try and fail and revert to my old position or transfer to something else than not have the opportunity.
I suspect (with no real grounds; hope might be better) that a bad leader is more easily found out and replaced than has proven the case with a bad manager.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

KENAT,  I agree with you... you will do it?

As Bruce Willis said...

In Live Free or Die Hard: "Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. Pat on the back, blah blah blah. That a boy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. [I do this] because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so [I'm] doing it. That's what makes you that guy."

RE: What if I don't want to be a leader?

Bradpa, I'm an engineer now, and I'd like to shift to the management track as I move on with my career.  To higher level work, and let others figure out the details.  I'm at 5 years now, by the time I'm at 15, I don't want to be pulling out bulk density tables and doing those basic calculations.

If people are already looking to you for guidance...or at team meetings, the other engineers wait for you to agree with something, before they agree with your current leader/supervisor... that's a problem.  A good manager will utilize you, and convince you of things first, so others will follow.  An ordinary manager will be spiteful of your influence and sooner or later take it out on you.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources