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Do I tell him he is about to get fired
22

Do I tell him he is about to get fired

Do I tell him he is about to get fired

(OP)
I am somewhat of Senior Manager in a very large company - 3,500+.

Through a VERY reliable source I have found out that a co-worker junior my status but not a "report" is going to be let go - probability 99.99%.  While I consider him a friend - he is probably more an acquaintance - he lives 700 miles away.

Question: Do I tell him??

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

What would you hope to accomplish by telling him?  Would you be doing so in order that he might get a jump on looking for a new job or saving face by resigning ahead of termination?  

"On the human scale, the laws of Newtonian Physics are non-negotiable"

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

NO.  

Things can change putting egg on your face.  You telling him will not help him one iota, only possibly hurt you.  Keep clam, especially since he is not your charge.  You would be taking on the responsibility of another and possibly stepping on someone elses toes.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

Imagine word gets back to HR or the fellow's manager that you spilled the beans.  Don't do it.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies?  Do so now: Forum Policies
 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

Incidentally, you shouldn't know yourself if he is not a direct report and probably know because someone told you for some reason but not as a need to know reason.
If this was part of a downsizing exercise which meant he was one of a number of people to be let go then you might have a legitimate knowledge. You still can say nothing, the responsibility is entirely for his own manager to make the final decision and tell him.
If you known because of a confidence you certainly cannot tell him.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

(OP)
Thanks guys -

That was my opinion also.  Let things work their natural course - whatever that may be.  Nothing good could come of it if I "spilled" the "beans"

And two weeks isn't going to help him much.

 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

For a colleague or acquaintance...maybe not.

If he was a "friend" I would give him the heads-up, if I was in the know.  For me, it's better to keep a friend and lose a job than it is to keep a job and lose a friend.

Sorry...that's just me.  It's wrong professionally, but that would be a situation where I would choose to put my own well-being at risk.

 

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

2
Losing your job is not usually a surprise. If your friend is smart, he will have figured his own probability for termination.  If you want to help him, get a list of contacts together that could use his skills and send it to him when he is let go.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

Your answer is the same as for the question, "Do I want to go as well as him?"

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

It is quite a conundrum, for sure.

I just know I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror day in and day out if I knew something was coming that would hurt a friend and I didn't give him or her any warning about it.

What other people think of me matters less than what *I* think of me.  They don't have to live with me; I do.  Sorry...for a friend, I could not do anything other than alert him or her that something was up.  If that means I lose a reputation...so be it, that's what I do.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I actually find myself agreeing with both sides on this one.

My take on it would be I would only tell him if I was aware that the information would be really useful to him. For example he was thinking of taking out a loan to buy a new car, house extension or turning down the chance to move companies something of that magnitude.

There is no great logic behind this either ethical or professional, but like SNORGY I base many of my judgements on living with myself and treating others as I would hope they would treat me. If I felt the information was really useful to him I would take the moral high ground if not the professional one. Sometimes even I don't know how my mind works.
 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

2
There is nothing in a company more confidential than personnel decisions.  Repeating hearsay (which is all it can be since you are not in the decision loop) does no good and is nearly certain to backfire on you.  This feels like an elementary school "I know something you don't know" kind of thing and only a 2nd grader would succumb to it.  

I really can't believe that "somewhat of a Senior Manager" hasn't already worked this out.  The first time I was in a similar situation I was a team leader (with the team all reporting to various supervisors who weren't me).  One of the people on my team was being fired at the end of the month and her supervisor called to "give me a heads up".  The heads up included instructions that I couldn't start transitioning his role until she was gone, but I needed to safeguard the parts of the project she had access to (i.e. all of it).  I had a reason to be officially informed, but no right to communicate it in any way and any actions I took to "safeguard" stuff would be visible to the team.  I did nothing, and on the first of the month nothing happened.  Her supervisor's manager backed off on the staff reductions and she's since retired from the company at the end of her career.  I was really glad that I kept my mouth shut.  

By the time you get to "Senior Management" you have to have several similar stories, so why the hell did you bring it up here?  This is not a gray area at all.

David

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I think the problem with the question and the variance in the answers to it is that we are all approaching it from the views we have through our own biases and filters.  Someone in management (an MBA, no doubt) described it as a case where we are all wearing sunglasses of different colours.  The scenario and ensuing courses of action are very situational.

With respect to the OP (nutengineer) stating that he / she is somewhat of a senior manager, I assumed, taking that on face value, that the information he / she had received was probably dependable - more than just hearsay.  If one was to subsequently be faulted for leaking the information in the first place, then that fault properly resides with those who informed nutengineer, not with nutengineer.  Playing the scenario out, that is precisely the message that I would convey to HR if I was ever taken to task on it.

To me, rumours, hearsay etc. are cancerous and destructive in the workplace.  The best way to kill one and get on with things is to let the subject of the rumour know about it.  That gets things out in the open and forces everybody's hand.  A work culture is only as good as what you create.  You can choose to live and work in a clandestine, back-stabbing, double-agent mentality, or you can choose to be forthright, honest and embrace the spirit of team play.

Sorry...I have seen too many very good people get "screwed over" by their bosses or managers in situations similar to this, and I cannot with clear conscience turn a blind eye to things and pretend I don't know about it when a friend is involved.  The only difficult decision in my mind would be "how" I told the person - word choice, environment, etc.  I think the people I work with (or "for") now understand that, and they respect my ways by simply not confiding in me the things that would put me in such feelings of conflict.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

Things can change, so it is best to keep that confidential information to yourself.

I worked for one company that had an opening in another division in another city. Company policy was that until the other division decided to interview you, you did not have to inform your manager of your interest in the other job. Imagine my surprise when I was called into my manager's office and asked point blank if I was considering leaving for that other division. I just replied that I had applied for their opening but hadn't heard anything yet. I almost went to HR becasue of the breach in policy, but decided it wouln't do any good. The 2 managers had both worked together at another division before they transferred to their current divisions.
 

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I agree with zdas

I have been in situations where I had confidential information and I knew one company had promised the same contract to two different suppliers. Both suppliers where my customers, one was a business friend and one was a business and personal friend. Both where making a very considerable investment based on the promise of work.

I would never tell either that the other was quoting, let alone promised the work.

I did however council both re the wisdom of investment without a watertight contract as you can't be sure they (the end user) will keep their word. Both invested anyway. One my personal friend lost enough money to cripple his business.

He accepts I tried to tell him within the constraints I had and it was his own fault for being over optimistic.

SNORGY

In my opinion, the maximum you could do if in fact the circumstances where as you say, would be to advise them to be cautious of being over extended as times are tough and you yourself don't feel all that secure. You can't say they are not secure, but your statement that your not feeling all that secure implies that they also might not be.

It is very possible that you might alarm them to the point that they react strongly, do no one any good and take you down with them.

99 times out of 100 it does them no good to get told early but does you harm for telling them

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

What does the Engineering Code of Ethics in your jurisdiction say?

Here is the Code of Ethics in Ontario:

http://www.peo.on.ca/Ethics/code_of_ethics.html

"3) A practitioner shall act in professional engineering matters for each employer as a faithful agent or trustee and shall regard as confidential information obtained by the practitioner as to the business affairs, technical methods or processes of an employer..."

"2 i)A practitioner shall, regard the practitioner's duty to public welfare as paramount;"

There are some cases when the duty to public welfare might override matters of confidentiality. I don't believe that this is the case here, since people get let go or fired all the time (i.e. it is not unusual). Consequently, business affairs, such as who is getting fired, are confidential as David (ZDAS) already stated.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

patprimmer:

You are correct.  That is what I was sort of alluding to in the last couple of lines in my post, but you have a way of saying it with less ambiguity.

 

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

Excellent advice Cass...

Dik

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

josephv:

To which I respond:

(1) My opinion is that the context surrounding what you have quoted is different and not intended to apply specifically to a situation such as this; and even if it did:
(2) If someone tells me, "By the way, we intend to fire (so-and-so) next week / month...keep it a secret and don't tell anyone...", when they are already armed with the knowledge that it is a decision that I have no control or influence over, then why should they be telling me?  I would suggest that *they* are in breach of thics, or at least in breach of confidence, not *me*.

Ethics or not, professional or not, I give the friend the heads-up.  Probably in a manner suggested by patprimmer, but I do it nonetheless.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

The ethics of keeping confidence on unethical/illegal conduct is a subject in itself. Things like doctor/priest or even journalists obligation to protect confidentiality/source come to mind as stronger than HR issues.

The ethics of keeping confidential information from friends is another issue. Friendship alone should not outweigh keeping a legitimate confidence. In my opinion, general good advice covered so as not to be a hint is as far as you can go.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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for site rules
 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

The operative phrase being "...legitimate confidence...".

Telling someone who has no say, control or influence in the matter, "By the way, keep this under your hat, but we are firing (so and so)." is not a legitimate confidence.  It is a stupid, inappropriate message that serves only to draw attention to an upcoming blind-siding ambush.  The kind of thing that friends are supposed to warn friends about.

I have seen too many friends get ambushed like that.  I'd rather sell out what the corporation perceives as a definition of ethics than see it happen again.  I personally prefer my standards of conduct to those of any employer I have ever had.

But, I am jaded, and my glasses do have a distinct red bias.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

This is why I said "hearsay" in my first post.  If you are not part of the decision loop and if you do not have a legitimate reason for being informed, then it is just hallway gossip, regardless of the source--hearsay by definition.  You do not have a confidentiality obligation to not repeat gossip.

On the other hand who gets hurt and who benefits from telling the guy?  Let's say you call him and say "the suits have it in for you and they're canning you first of the month".  Possible outcomes:  (1) he gets an extra few weeks to mope; (2) he goes to his boss and says "nutengineer told me that I'm getting fired, why?"; (3) he gets upset and destroy's company property and when caught says "nutengineer told me that I was getting fired so I wanted you jerks to pay"; or (4)he sends out 300 resumes and one of them goes to a friend of his boss who calls his boss and says "I just got a resume from Joe, what kind of guy is he?"; to which the boss calls Joe in and Joe says "nutengineer said I was getting fired so I was getting ahead of the game".

In scenario 1, no one wins.  In all of the other scenarios nutengineer gets tagged as untrustworthy and his rise in the company reverses itself, so the looser is the guy repeating gossip.

It is amazing how often the messenger is the one with his head cut off his shoulders.  It is also amazing how often the best course is to not repeat gossip.

David

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

It is also amazing how often we find we have more concern for the people we think we are helping than they have for us when asked to give up the responsible person.

There is a good expression here:

No good deed goes unpunished.
The person you help can probably rely on a reasonable excuse for being moved on and get a good job relatively easily compared to the guy who gets fired for breeching confidentiality rules.

I suspect some companies regard confidentiality rather more highly than some other character traits. Confidential information is often commercially sensitive and they need to know that people are capable of treating sensitive information with proper respect no matter how they came by it.

The origins of the information are irrelevant. If you have confidential company information you have to treat it as confidential even if some other employee is blabbing it all over the shop. He is the one who will be tagged, not you.

Plus, supposing he has given you a heads up on something for whatever reason, he presumes you will treat it as confidential. You owe him a duty just as much as the employee to be fired.
Once you lose trust you are a gonner.
It may be tough to watch some colleague knowing he may be about to be fired, but his prospects are probably better than yours if you blab.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

If you want to play out a conspiracy theory, this might be a test of your ability to keep a confidence, given that you are "somewhat of Senior Manager."

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

It sucks that stuff like this happens in the workplace.

I am just glad people I work with now know me well enough to know what not to tell me.

And...if it's bad...I don't want to know.  That's why I left management.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I worked for a guy once who was a terrible gossip.  Once he said "if I tell you something, will you keep it to yourself?"  I answered "Of course not, if it doesn't impact my responsibilities don't tell me or I will repeat it early and often".  He looked at me a long time and told me anyway.  I don't remember what it was now, but it wasn't enough fun to repeat.

David

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I keep my mouth shut.  That way, I don't have to lie.  

But, then again, I work for myself, so I tend not to believe what I tell myself.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I sometimes surprised and disappoint people by NOT repeating things they told me in confidence but expected me to repeat. You know when people are trying to white-ant someone but don't want it attributed to them, so they try to abuse you. Keeping the secret really annoys them, but what can they do about it. Accuse you of not spreading vicious rumpurs they where trying to start?

Regards
Pat
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RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

You could assume from my "Poppa isn't happy" post that I'm somewhat self-centered these days, but my answer anytime would be NO.  I see no good coming from it and possible harm to you, or even him.  As you said, he's 700 miles away and not a direct report; what if your source is wrong and your friend resigns or goes postal for no good reason?

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

This situation happened to me.

I was co-manager of a group in a company experiencing dowturn with management request to do the 10% decrease.  In management meeting we presented our layoff names.  Other groups' layoff names included my car-pool partner.

As smart person above stated, she and everybody knew the company was downsizing.  On the next morning's drive we were talking about it and I knew she'd be out of a job within 2 hours.  The only thing I said was "It's going to be a very bad day for some" while looking right at her.

The confidence of a management position to know private information is not one to be broken over such things.  Now, we were car-pool partners for 2+ years, not social friends, but I was aware she was not about to make a major purchase or wedding or something like that.

A corrolary: in my position I also had reason to know everybodies' salary.  Of course from time to time at social gatherings what people earn comes up and there's always someone who bemoans he knows so-and-so makes $$$.  It's not something to comment on, confirm or deny, as it would be a major confidence undermine.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

(OP)
Thanks for ALL your input.  Everyone gets a STAR*****

I will just let it ride ans see what happens.   Thread done!!

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I don't think there is a correct answer for this one.  The answer lies within the individual faced with the situation and it comes down to tough choices.  As an slight digression, I had the most interesting ethics training a few years back.  At the beginning of the class the instructor said we were not going to waste andy time discussing right vs wrong because we were all adults and professionals and that we should already know the difference between right and wrong and should always do the right thing.  Instead the training was focused on how to handle situations of right vs right.

I see this scenario as a situation of right vs right.  On one hand we are ethically bound to act as faithful agents to our employers.  That means if we have information that was told to us in confidence we have an ethical obligation to our employer to keep our mouth shut.  On the other hand, if we know something bad is about to happen to a friend, I believe we have an ethical obligation to warn them.  So as I see it, from a strictly ethics standpoint keeping the information to our selves and telling our coworker are both ethically correct decisions.  If we spill the beans it could ruin our career, but if we say nothing and our friend loses his job and suffers economic hardships (Imagine if we later found out he ended up losing his home because he couldn'f find another job) we could end up living with guilt because we might have been able to prevent his economic hardship by giving him a heads up.  

I think the best way of dealing with situations like this is coming up with a middle ground solution.  I like what pierdesign did above.  Maybe the best solution would be to drop a strong hint without coming right out and saying it.  That way, hopefully if your friend is smart enough, they will get the hint and since you never told them directly you can't really be accused of spilling confidential information.  

Personally, regardless of how close of a friend the person was to me, I would only consider hitning at the pending firing if there was enough time for the person to act proactively.  If I found out today that they were going to be canned on Friday I would say nothing because at this point there is not much good that would come from telling them anything.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

spongebob,
A guy is going to be fired at the end of the month regardless of your actions.  That is a given.  You learn of it on the first of the month through a blabbermouth peer of yours (you have no business reason to know this, but some people just can't keep their mouths shut).  

Scenario 1:  You tell him.  He spends an extra month bummed out, pissed off, and trying to determine "why?", but never mentions your name.  He still gets canned, and loses his house and ends up living under a bridge.  Several of your peers know of your relationship and suspect you were the leak, your rate of advancement slows dramatically

Scenario 2:  You don't tell him.  He has a pretty good month and they reconsider and he keeps his job, house, marriage and never knows that he was on the block.

Scenario 3:  You don't tell him.  He has an average month and gets canned, loses his house, marriage, and ends up living under a bridge.

Scenario 4:  You tell him and he goes to everyone in the company and says "I know I'm getting fired, Bob told me, what can I do to change your minds?"  He gets fired, you get fired, you both lose your houses and spouses and live under the bridge together.

Which scenario would you or he prefer?  #2 right, but #3 isn't a catastrophe for you?.  #1 and #4 are both personal disasters for you.  My guess is that all 4 scenarios are about equally as likely.  Now do a risk/reward analysis.  Scenario 1-3 all have you keeping your job (although #1 kind of sucks).  Scenario 4 costs you your job.  None of them improve your standing within the company--net reward zero.  So you end up with a non-trivial risk for zero possibility of reward.  It don't look gray to me.

David  

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

Quote:

Thread done!!
easier said than done on this site.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

Kind of like the "Pirates Code", more a guideline than a code.  The only one who "owns" a thread is site management.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I remember my manager calling me up the day before I got laid off, he asked me if I had everything backed up on the server.  To me thats code word for your getting laid off.   I knew there was lay offs coming on a certain date and had the good sense to understand what he was saying to me.

I would tell him and would not call it unprofessional, in todays enviroment, "here today, gone tomorrow"


So your all wet, tell the poor fool that he is getting let go, if the guy is going to make a major purchase or not.  I don't think most of you have been on both sides of this situation.  And what is so ethical about company's nowadays?  And worrying that he is going postal is not your concern, that is out of your control and in that guys control.

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

Now that we've heard from the teenaged, counter-culture set (and I really don't care how old you actually are controlsdude, your positions seem to be straight out of middle school), we can finally call this thread complete.

David

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

And as an adjunct to Zdas04's answer, most of us older folks have been there (and then some), done that (and then some) and got the T shirt (a drawer full).
There is nothing new in politics nor office politics because its about people.

(Sorry, this "thread complete" bit never seems to work at Eng-Tips).

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I have a (hopefully) slightly different possible solution... lament in casual conversation that a large layoff is coming soon.  Get in some comment about "I hope no one is purchasing a house soon..."  No need to mention him by name, stare directly at him when the comment is made, just plant the seed in his mind that making large life-changing decisions for the next few months is probably unwise.  If queried, reply you have no idea who is included, but it's covering all aspects of the business.

You have not betrayed management's trust by mentioning him specifically (and looking straight at him while saying it is no different than flat out telling him), and you haven't left him out of the loop.  He's an adult, he needs to make his own decisions with the information at hand.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

The "right vs. right" argument leads to an even worse situation.  

What makes it "right" to ONLY tell your friend?  Don't the other people deserve equal consideration?  So should you go and blab this to everyone involved?

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

The situation with, to your knowledge just one person at risk, is quite different to hinting that multiple people are at risk especially if the recipient of this information takes it at face value and starts spreading the word/doom and gloom.
Such information has commercial implications and the wider it spreads the more impact it may have.

The spreading of false rumours which might impact share values etc is frowned upon.

I can't see anyone wanting to take such a risk as, as like as not, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Any information can be considered as having some sort of commercial implications. and this is a dangerous area in which to tread.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Do I tell him he is about to get fired

I would recommend reading "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie to a few of you.

People in the workplace can handle their own emotions and are responsible for them, not someone else.  We all understand we are "at will" employees, which sets the rules of engagement.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

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