Design Documents
Design Documents
(OP)
What does is mean when an engineer requests information in a design document format? I though design documents were the plans and details prepared by an engineer.
In this instance we are required to send sealed connections to the EOR through the fabricator. The drawings required information submitted to the engineer in a "design document format not a shop drawing format". I sketched up the connections and sent them over. Now they are requesting calculations to back up my design. Not that big of a deal just a little PITA.
In this instance we are required to send sealed connections to the EOR through the fabricator. The drawings required information submitted to the engineer in a "design document format not a shop drawing format". I sketched up the connections and sent them over. Now they are requesting calculations to back up my design. Not that big of a deal just a little PITA.






RE: Design Documents
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Since you are working as an extension of the fabricator, as his engineer; I assume you have talked the details over which need your attention, and so they can start detailing the job. You have to do enough free body diagrams of the connection to do your own design, or you might take a 8.5x11 copy of one of the shop drawing details, in its initial form, without final spacing and dimensions, etc. and red-line it as part of your calcs. You need to show sufficient detail to do a complete, clear and proper design, but I would not worry that my calcs. and sketches look like Rembrandts unless they want to pay you for this. You must show enough to do it right and to be able to defend your design, but you do not have an obligation to educate the EOR. He wasn't smart enough to do it himself, or was trying to push the work off on someone else to improve his profit margin; it's your stamp and responsibility on that portion of the work, and a fair and reasonable discussion of questionable conditions is understandable, but you shouldn't have to redo your calcs. because you left out the calc. step of converting ft.-kips to inch-pounds. If the AISC connection tables are sufficient for your design of simple shear connections, I would state that in a note in my calcs. and that they were done to the loads shown on his construction documents and let it go at that.
These types of issues in the whole design, detail, build sequence of events are starting to boarder on insanity. Everyone, at every step along the process, is looking for someone else to do the work, take the blame, have the deep pockets; all because they aren't smart enough or are too lazy to do a complete job themselves.
RE: Design Documents
Must have hit a nerve there sorry.
You would be shocked to see what this "job" entails and what the EOR is asking for. There are literally a hand full simple shear connections (9-10 in total) all worked out to 3 different cases. Two tab plates and a double angle connection. I drew them up, sealed them and sent them out for approval. I gave sufficient information to build the connection (angle size, plate size, bolt size, weld size and dimensions). Well they came back requesting calculations backing up the design of the connections. I literally opened up the 13th edition to create my sketches using tables 10-1, 10-2 and 10-9. Their general notes require sealed connections that are "in a design drawing format not a shop drawing format". I just never knew a design drawing format included calculations.
Now they are requesting I design hand rail attachments down to the blocking the hand rail is attached to.
I get paid to perform the design either way..... I just feel a little sorry for my client.
RE: Design Documents
As fees are driven ever downward by lowball competition, engineers have become quite clever at doing less and less design. And the funny thing is that the work has to be done, it's just changed who's doing it.
I don't have a solution. I'm just along for the ride.
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I do understand the need for some special help on a complex enough structure or complex enough detailing and connections, that may be money well spent, and advice well worth it on some jobs. But, the real proof of that pudding is that if the EOR isn't smart enough to do those complex connections and details, he probably shouldn't be pretending to be the EOR on that kind of job. If he's not smart enough to do the whole design, how is he ever going to be smart enough to check your work. Or, is the whole idea, now that I've got your calcs. in my file, I've got something to hang you with; even if that future project problem was of my own making, I'll force you to help cover my mistake.
Consider this also, maybe you have misread the structural notes and specs. Maybe "sealed connections" means a seal weld all around, and you're wasting your time with all those calcs.
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However, the fabroicator does detail them for the shop, and I check them.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
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I don't think I misread the documents. The general notes required designs carried out by other professionals to seal and sign their work. Then we got a letter explaining to us their definition of design documents includes calculations
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http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
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I believe the engineer of record should insist on direct communication with the connection engineer. Working together I have found a project benefits 100% of the time.
http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
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http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
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RE: Design Documents
http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
RE: Design Documents
For most projects, similar to the project leading to the post, connection design is minimal. For many of these small projects we provide the required connection package, but also are available to consult on fabrication and erection issues. Many of these questions are not addressed to the EOR, or they benefit from a more technical discussion between the EOR and connection engineer.
http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
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When I started out in the power industry, I would have really liked to have had access to Connectegr at our office.
Like he said, the building design for the plant support structures seemed relatively simple when compared to some of the connection nightmares we encountered. There were times when I designed connections for a month straight.
For normal everyday connections, the task is pretty simple.
I can understand the need for a specialized engineering firm for connection design on large projects (especially industrial).
I respect Connectegr's input on this forum and I applaud him for his effort in answering questions. Anyone who has spent weeks on end dealing with tricky connections would likely agree.
RE: Design Documents
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
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So now, I'm also going to design all of the connections, so I'll just ramp it up to 80 hours a week. I can't ask for additional fee for this additional work, because the client will not understand and then just go elsewhere for their structural engineering services. The fabricator is popping champagne because he certainly isn't giving any money back from his usual price, despite the fact that the engineer has gone against protocol and designed all of the connections. But he sends a few RFI's to the engineer anyway to better align with his standards that only he knows, adding more uncompensated work to the structural EOR.
In summary, don't hate the player, hate the game. I'm not sure how it got to this point in the Eastern US, but it is a system that everyone has gotten used to and is comfortable with. Excuse me, it's time for my morning nap.
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"I still fail to see how you can select your members without consideration of detailing"...oh, you certainly cannot, but I have been involved in a few huge projects where this was a major problem.
On a few power projects we were forced to choose beams from rolling schedules. On some of the column line braced bays towards the bottom of 270' + tall boiler buildings we'd have struts with extremely high axial loads. Some of the engineers just let the software choose the beam-columns (really just columns at this point)and you might wind up with a W14 beam-column with no where near enough depth to use any kind of normal connection because of the high axial loads. Next thing you know, you spent a week trying to design some wild a$$ connection because you were stuck with your beam size....that is until you ran past your deadline and the rolling schedule changed then rinse and repeat!
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If you think there are a bunch of fabricators out there "popping champagne" you are out of touch with the industry. As bad as it is on the design side of things.... it is just as bad on the other side of the fence. I have done plenty of projects where we were nailed down to final sizes off of napkin sketches. The key is to not figure to the gnats a$$ and have room to make some modifications.
I didn't mean for this to turn into a discussion about who is responsible for the connection design. I was just interested in the definition of design documents and whether the definition included calculations or not. I found it a bit irritating that when I submitted a perfectly fine set of sealed sketches the EOR then wanted to see my backup calculations..... especially since the connections came directly out of the AISC steel manual.
I am going to photocopy the pages and send them to the EOR for their review.
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On the West coast, fabricators are generally not structural engineers.
I assume this is not true on the East coast?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
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By "fabricator", I meant the structural engineer designing the connections, employed directly by the fabricator or hired by the fabricator by project.
RE: Design Documents
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."