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ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
20 Mar 12 18:52
So I searched facebook and saw an old 2010 discussion about this.  Nothing recently.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_JOB_APPLICANTS_FACEBOOK?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-03-20-03-22-06

Does anyone else think this is a bad practice?  I keep my facebook locked down for privacy, and the most I say about work is "Had a long day at work today" or "Worked 12 hours today".  

I was going over the ASME Ethics for MechE's and they really say nothing about being a decent person, not posting stupid links on FB, etc etc....As long as you put the public good first, as an engineer and promote the profession in a positive way.
casseopeia (Structural)
20 Mar 12 19:18
I heard the news reports today that people are reporting that potential employers are requesting Facebook accounts and that the HR person is asking to be friended.  I would not have believed these stories until my recent job search that has seemed far more invasive into my privacy than ever before.

There are some legitimate uses for Facebook and your job if you are a model or actor.  A lot of modeling agencies ask for FB or other social network instead of a portfolio.  For that it makes sense.  And it should be voluntary, but that isn't how things work.  There is tremendous pressure to supply everything they ask for for fear of getting booted into the circular file.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

Helpful Member!  Comcokid (Electrical)
20 Mar 12 19:58
According to some younger people I know (non-engineers) It doesn't stop at Facebook either, they want to look into your Twitter, Linkedin, and any other social network sites you have signed-up with. If you claim to not have a profile on the popular sites, then that may automatically get your resume dumped. And, if you refuse to give them your sign-on info, they may offer you a PC to use, but it may have key-logging software installed.

George Orwell's 'Big Brother' from his book 1984 is here! It takes the form of scores of HR 'Catberts'.

Why do companies want to only hire employees with unquestionable ethics, when the companies operate without any?
 
SteelPE (Structural)
20 Mar 12 20:02
So what happens if you don't have a Facebook account?  Do you end up in the circular file too?  

I don't have one because I didn't want anyone invading my privacy (and because I don't have any friends hahaha).... and I am actually pretty pissed that I caved into the linkedin website.  At least that is not as bad.
ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
20 Mar 12 20:08
Knowing that I might be in the resume grind too... I will either delete all of my social media, or simply refuse access to it.

I'm going to cite my professional ethics, and the body of work I completed as an engineer. Beyond that, I'm not letting HR inspect my car, my wallet, the lint in my pocket, my facebook, the locked box under my bed.

Asking me to give up my personal passwords and reveal my personal life is ethically questionable to me. Because it's simply invasive, and offers no greater good.  It does not serve the public to know what I do on FB... Not to mention...without paying me, if they're already going to work me into a corner, what will happen once I work there.
IRstuff (Aerospace)
20 Mar 12 20:42
beej67 (Civil/Environmental)
20 Mar 12 23:16
Tell them it's a violation of Facebook's Terms of Service.  Problem solved.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

IRstuff (Aerospace)
20 Mar 12 23:27
Then they'll just ask you to friend them, their problem solved.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

casseopeia (Structural)
21 Mar 12 0:00
Friend them, then later unfriend them.  
Does anyone, even a worthless HR weenie have time to check if they have been dropped as a friend?

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

MacGyverS2000 (Electrical)
21 Mar 12 7:02
It's not about remaining as a friend... they want you to friend them so they can look at what you post.  they'll poke aorund for 5 minutes or so, then they're done.  De-friending them down the road is pointless, they got what they came for.

A more appropriate tactic would be to add them as a friend, but block them from seeing anything.  They'll see your account exists, but see nothing else, not even pics.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

jmw (Industrial)
21 Mar 12 8:06
"Block them from seeing anything"
(that can be done?)
And what message does that send the HR weanies? That you are pulling their chain?
Possibly better to deny having a facebook account or state that it is personal not business?

And how come HR can view Facebook etc on company computers and in company time?
Sorry, silly question.
I resent Facebook.
I did get an account but I really don't like the way so many sites now automatically pick up my facebook log in and want to log me in via facebook and then report my activity to all the world. I don't want to share anything via facebook. I can't even remember why I signed in the first place.
I don't use it for anything.
Linked in is another matter. It seems that in the groups I have joined my posts attract some attention and I have received some useful enquiries as a result.
But I can't see any use for Facebook.
Ironic how so many people complain about a Big Brother Society with Government knowing everything about us and then they all sign up of Facebook and volunteer all sorts of additional details.
What a gift to anyone wanting to indulge in a little identity theft.


 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

SteelPE (Structural)
21 Mar 12 8:31
jmw

Interesting that you should bring up the point about identity theft because I read an article last week saying that scammers and identity thieves are now turning to linked-in to steal your information as well.  So beware.
Latexman (Chemical)
21 Mar 12 8:37
Some companies and government agencies are asking interviewees for their FB username and password!  They want to see everything!

Good luck,
Latexman

peppinu (Automotive)
21 Mar 12 9:10
I fully agree with JMW. FB is nonsense and a shear waste of time. I still cannot understand how certain people hang their dirty linen in there
I was always under the impression that logins and passwords are private and non transferable; why would you need a password if everybody knows it. It would be unethical to even ask.
I do not even have a photo in thier and the only freinds are my kids a few relatives, 12 in all.
 
Helpful Member!  MadMango (Mechanical)
21 Mar 12 10:11
In our realm of work, I do not think an employer would ever ask for FB/Twitter log-in information.  If you were applying as CEO of a Fortune 500 company or running for political office I could understand the request, to a degree.  You can always say NO and find another interview.  I am one of those people with the attitude that I do nothing wrong, and do not care if people dig for dirty laundry.  This does not mean that I like seeing my privacy eroded.

No one here has ever snooped for a candidate on Google, LinkedIn or FB?  If you put your life in public media, expect the public to see it.  If you find someone that is too stupid to vet their own public postings, do you really want them working with you?

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."


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TheTick (Mechanical)
21 Mar 12 10:26
In an ideal response, I would like to tell the HR department that I am disappointed that they feel the need to resort to such juvenile means of vetting job candidates.  Really?  Check my FB profile?  What next?  Do you want to see who signed my high school yearbook?  (or ***gasp*** who didn't???)
SomptingGuy (Automotive)
21 Mar 12 10:43
My employer has recently stated that it's doing Baseline Personnel Security Standard (BPSS) on its employees. I've only been here for 22 years (half my life, sadly), so surely they'd know enough about me already.

- Steve
 

MacGyverS2000 (Electrical)
21 Mar 12 11:21
I'm not suggesting giving it up (I would walk out of an interview if they demanded it), just providing interim solutions if people really want the job but feel forced to give it up.

j, you can block pretty much everything if you so desire, and on a person by person basis.  Once they look at your profile, they'll see the FB layout, your main pic, and something to the effect of "This user has chosen to hide this info unless you know them" for everything they could select.  It's effective when you don't want certain family members from reading particular posts.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

Latexman (Chemical)
21 Mar 12 11:52
If one has been out of work for a long while, the savings account is about empty, and the spouse and kids are looking . . . thin?  Desperate times may require desperate actions.  I could not fault one for doing this.  After all, the password can be changed immediately after.  An abuse of power?  Definately.

Good luck,
Latexman

casseopeia (Structural)
21 Mar 12 11:55
The economy and legions of unemployed have turned every single HR Manager into delusional, self-important, dictators that would embarrass the late Kim Jong Il.  As a job-seeker, you do not have the free will that people with regular paychecks think you have.  You can't just say no and walk out anymore than you can refuse to give up your SSN and birthdate for a criminal background check.

I'd like to see some high profile smack-downs of the worst abusers to put the fear into them.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
21 Mar 12 12:13
casseopeia, It's an unethical abuse of power, I agree.  That's why I thought  I'd get more hits on the forum search about it... with people sharing which firms/corporations asked for that kind of information.

Personally, I'm not going to give them my password, with the plan to change it later. I don't mind the background check, but that's all publicly available information, like DUI's and bankruptcy.  
 
SNORGY (Mechanical)
21 Mar 12 12:42
The problem with Facebook is once you start an account with them, they won't allow you to simply wipe out the account or erase all records related it.  I fought with them for half a year before they caved and deleted my FB account; in the end, they were good about it.  Why did I delete it? someone posted a picture of a "moon" on my wall and my siter's kids got shocked by it.  I had no patience to become a censor or moderator every day.

The best way to avoid the problem is: don't have a Facebook account.

For those who ask to see it as part of a job-related background check...my response would be, "Ya, um, let me think about that...OK, no."  The conversation would end there.

Regards,

SNORGY.

ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
21 Mar 12 14:04
Snorgy, well.. the article also guesses that people who say they dont have FB, especially younger people are lying and probably getting bumped out anyway.
Helpful Member!  casseopeia (Structural)
21 Mar 12 14:55
I'm pretty sure my last employer's HR witch saw the article and immediately started asking for FB account login.  My FB page doesn't even provide work or employment information.  The most they could find out is that I have pet fish and 65-70 friends in the belly dance world, including musicians.  I have three friends who post in Arabic and a radically Republican brother who happens to be funny as he!! and a sister who makes the church lady look like Linsey Lohan.  My sister was deprived at birth of a sense of humor.

I have not counted the number of friends who self-describe themselves as 'alternative', a witch/goddess, or in possession of some special power (can thought-talk to animals).  How does any of that really show how I am as an employee, or what my values are, other than tolerant of a wide range of personalities?

What they really should be asking for is my Eng-Tips login.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

berkshire (Aeronautics)
21 Mar 12 15:08
I guess the whole thing comes down to the term "reasonable search"
The HR guy thinks it is reasonable, the job applicant thinks it's not.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

drawoh (Mechanical)
21 Mar 12 15:30
SNORGY,

   If someone posts inappropriate pictures on your wall, unfriend them.  You have better things to do with your time than censor posts.  I suspect that most of us have children on our friend lists.

   I wonder how Facebook savvy these HR droids are.  Most of the people I know on Facebook are lurkers.  They don't post.  There is nothing to learn.

   I have one "friend" who treats Facebook as an on-line diary.  If she assassinates some important person, we will be able to develop a personality profile from her posts.  I am not holding my breath.

   Most Facebook posts are not serious.  I have another friend who is in Whitehorse, Yukon, on a consulting job.  This is the nearest thing I have seen to a work related post.   

               JHG

frv (Structural)
21 Mar 12 15:33
I think it's insane that they ask for this.

I know necessity can be a heck of a thing, but I'd like to think I'd get up and walk away from the interview shortly after shaming whatever maggot asked for that information. I suspect they are taking advantage of the fact that people are desperate for work. Once this becomes common practice, it will be hard for anybody to take a stand.
MadMango (Mechanical)
21 Mar 12 16:54
Of course the alternative, if it's that important, is to prepare for the worse and create a sterile, prim and proper profile for HR types.  

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."


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patprimmer (Publican)
21 Mar 12 18:42
I don't have a facebook account as I considered it's entire reason for being created was to create contacts lists for spammers and scammers.

Asking for login details is identity theft and is as bad as demanding you hand over your wallet. You could always reply to that request that you had given your login to hundreds of people and they all used your account to post god knows what under your name. What did they intend to add.

I certainly would never employ anyone who could be coerced into providing their login details as I would not trust them to not also disclose company confidential information if pressed.

I am seriously rethinking my linkedin account which I created when looking for more work.

Regards
Pat
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dvd (Mechanical)
21 Mar 12 18:52
The whole topic of requesting FB login data seems like BS to me.  How many people get asked?  Are more ridiculous requests made every day that are not in the news? Seems to have generated lots of discussion in numerous places, but the story appears practically anecdotal to me.
Helpful Member!(3)  ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
21 Mar 12 20:56
Thank god for friends.  My friend just reminded me of all the "can not ask questions" for interviews and applications.

http://www.hrworld.com/features/30-interview-questions-111507/

Nationality, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, religion, political affiliation.  All of those are on FB.

So that's a way to get out of it, and maintain a civil discourse.
ctopher (Mechanical)
21 Mar 12 20:59
IMO, the only jobs that should be allowed to look at your FC, are government jobs that are linked to national security.
These days, maybe schools look at teachers too! wink

Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

patprimmer (Publican)
21 Mar 12 21:03
I wonder how many terrorists post their political views on facebook before applying for a job with the other side that requires security clearance.

Regards
Pat
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casseopeia (Structural)
21 Mar 12 22:05
Potential employers are not allowed to discriminate based on all those including age. They are allowed to ask your birthdate for the purpose of running a security check but can't ask how old you are.  A background check will turn up marriages and divorces, but they can't ask for your marital status.

I have read numerous legal analyses stating that the employer can be allowed to have the information, as long as they don't use it to discriminate. I can see companies squawking about protecting corporate security by poking around your Facebook account, but if they just happen to encounter photographs of you getting arrested during an Occupy protest, or dressed in drag during a pride parade, oh well.   I guess the judicial system thinks that corporations and HR weenies would never do anything so underhanded as to use this information to weed out people they don't want, even if discriminatory.  I guess the courts think that they will simply admit it.

And what happens when they do ask?  Are you going to whip out a copy of the state employment laws and show them the error of their ways.  That's got the same outcome as just getting up and walking out.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
21 Mar 12 22:39
casseopeia, while the outcome might be the same... I'd feel much better pointing it out and then leaving.   
patprimmer (Publican)
21 Mar 12 23:02
I find in an interview, there mostly comes a time where you think, it's in the bag, or no chance or I don't want it. The tone normally changes quite quickly at that point.

Regards
Pat
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SomptingGuy (Automotive)
22 Mar 12 7:12
Does not having a FB account mean you are a deviant these days? Like not having a driving licence? (sorry, drivers license).

- Steve
 

jmw (Industrial)
22 Mar 12 8:36
Given that Facebook pays $1 a day to people in the third world to investigate complaints about material on the site and that these people have unfettered access to everything you think is secure, you have to wonder that anyone posts anything at all.
Plus it is said that criminal gangs are focussing on this vulnerability.
All you have to do is complain abo0ut something on someone's site and FB passes all the access details to the third world and thus, allegedly, to criminal gangs.
No problem for HR then.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

jgailla (Geotechnical)
22 Mar 12 9:05
I don't have a FB account, but if I did, hell no.
I have, however, been very hungry for a job in the last couple of years.
Sometimes, as I heard in a movie, you just have to lay back, look at the stars, and wait for them to finish.
The current employment issue in the US is probably going to get better and is unlikely to repeat for some time, if the history of the 20th century tells us anything.
drawoh (Mechanical)
22 Mar 12 12:33
jgailla,

   There is one other possibility that you have all not considered.  

   Create an alternate Facebook page to be shown to employers.  You need to work as a team on this.  Everybody posts stuff that will be perceived by HR as politically correct.  HR is impressed by you and your friends.

   Your drinking, belly dancing, skiing and dirty jokes go on your personal site.   

               JHG

SomptingGuy (Automotive)
22 Mar 12 12:58
Faked FB accounts aren't new.

Imagine giving your login and password details to a potential employer and them discovering that you claim to be a 12 year old girl!

- Steve
 

ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
22 Mar 12 14:10
The business asking about FB or other social network stuff is wrong.  As we've pointed out with the questions they aren't allowed to ask.

A few people suggested setting up a fake FB.  In my opinion, that's unethical.  The intention is to deceive the employer about who you are in your personal life.  I'm not ok with that. As a professional, and a good person.

They're doing something unethical by asking, and I won't compromise myself to minimize the effects of their mistake.

 
casseopeia (Structural)
22 Mar 12 14:31
I think I mentioned before that a FB account request for certain jobs in the arts has been fairly common for awhile now.  And truthfully, I'd rather use FB instead of an even more annoying site like Model Mayhem.  Facebook has started a professional networking group or service, I think it's called 'Stik.'  I have not used it or even signed up.  I suspect there may be a fee for use, s I've stayed away.

But modeling and acting are not like architecture and engineering.  I still don't want any A/E corporation poking around my Facebook page.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

drawoh (Mechanical)
22 Mar 12 15:16

Quote (SomptingGuy):


Faked FB accounts aren't new.

Imagine giving your login and password details to a potential employer and them discovering that you claim to be a 12 year old girl!  

   I think that is s problem with chat rooms, not Facebook.

   If you friend a twelve year old girl you have never heard of, you deserve to find out she is an FBI agent.

               JHG

MacGyverS2000 (Electrical)
22 Mar 12 16:38
The FB TOS clearly states that you will not allow others to use the account, give them your password, etc.  This includes family, friends, etc.  So a company would be asking you to break the law by requesting the password... not very ethical of them (though legal to ask because they're not the ones breaking the law... until maybe they actually use the password).

Should they make the job offer contingent upon revealing the password and looking through your page, you can sue them for Tortious Interference as they've now made their agreement contingent upon breaking one already in place.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

MintJulep (Mechanical)
22 Mar 12 16:45
Solution seems quite simple.

Do Not use the same email address for soliciting work as you listed on FaceBook.

This diffuses the potential for an "I don't have a FaceBook account" reply to backfire.  The easiest and most positive way to find somebody on FB is by searching for a known email address. They check the email address listed on your resume and find no such address on FB.  Any name match can be dismissed as "just someone else with the same name as me."

Alternately, create a shill FB account with a throw-away email and just leave it "empty".  
KENAT (Mechanical)
22 Mar 12 18:48
The other problem is those of us with uncommon combinations of first and last names who were dumb enough to use our full real name when initially setting up a facebook account to keep in touch with friends across the pond.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

patprimmer (Publican)
22 Mar 12 19:47
Dan

Asking you to break a law is conspiracy so even at that stage a law is broken, however I am not sure that breaching a contract is a crime as such. At least here there is a great difference between criminal and civil matters here and breach of contract is civil, but fraud is criminal.

Re ethics

How is it unethical to deliberately hide confidential or private information. Heck in some cases it is actually illigal to disclose it. Is it unethical to lock your doors or to not publish all your passwords or to use a deceptive code when you write down bank account access details.

The real point is if you hand over confidential info like your password when pressed, that tells the asker that you cannot be trusted to resist pressure to hand over their confidential information. Just ask Bradley Manning if it is legal to hand over confidential information.

Regards
Pat
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IRstuff (Aerospace)
22 Mar 12 21:27
"FB TOS clearly states that you will not allow others to use the account, give them your password"

This is NOT a law; it's a contractual clause.  FB could sue you for breach of contract, but running afoul of some law would require some additional level of nefariousness.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
23 Mar 12 11:33
http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2012/03/facebook-says-it-may-sue-employers-who-demand-job-applicants-passwords.ars?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss


Another thing to think about.  What about exposing all of my friends to the interviewer? Perhaps one of my friends works for that company already, or a competitor.  Does the interviewer check?   
Latexman (Chemical)
23 Mar 12 12:05
Take THAT, HR weinies!

Good luck,
Latexman

casseopeia (Structural)
23 Mar 12 12:46
Because of the economy and the hoards of unemployed and underemployed, HR types have taken this as a license to invade.  Employers and their minions have become power-hungry, bullying despots who abuse their new-found power over the jobless masses similar to what happened with TSA agents in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.  It will continue to happen until enough people fight back AND when there is a high-profile smack-down.

If you recall, most people just put up with TSA agents groping them inappropriately in public until there were some significant lawsuits filed and video posted on line.  I think we are right on the tip of the social network invasion by potential employer smack-down.   

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

btrueblood (Mechanical)
23 Mar 12 13:10
Hmm.  I see a huge growth market and possible job opportunity for my kid.  Being one of those "friendless" persons with no facebook or twitter account, I would probably pay some 20-yr. old a few bucks to create a very plain vanilla account for me, replete with photos of the 1.3 wives, 2.3 kids, dog, cat, family car, and a list of "friends" with a few boring back-and-forth posts/wall quotes/whatever.

I'd find it hard to see that as unethical, as I have no intention of deceiving anybody, and the photos would be real ones.  Just that I have zero interest in obtaining/maintaining silly social network accounts and can't see the point of them.

Even if the intent was simply to create a "clean" account that was seperate and distinct from one's "private" account (very deliberately and quite snarky quotes for that latter one), how is that deceitful?  People have made a forthright effort to maintain their public image since the dawn of time.  Should we all show up to work in our weekend grubby clothes, and discuss our sexual orientation in the corporate lunchroom?  Or should our private life be seperate and distinct from our public life, and our public face similarly maintained and prepped?  Are women's makeup and various other "enhancements" also unethical, or are they simply their attempt to keep up appearances for their public image?  How about deodorant?
ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
23 Mar 12 15:02
btrueblood, I think you're going a bit too far with the makeup and other examples.

My point is that the employer asking is unethical, and potentially illegal because of they get access to information they should not. And by creating a fake account, you are misrepresenting yourself, AND enabling their unethical behavior.  Misrepresenting yourself doesn't mean fake photos...but the whole process of hiding your social life and creating a few fake comments and status posts that would be seen as "OK".
berkshire (Aeronautics)
23 Mar 12 15:26
Which brings up another point.
 A lot of job applications have verbage to the effect, that, if the applicant mis represents him/herself in any way they will be subject to instant dismissal.
 B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

btrueblood (Mechanical)
23 Mar 12 16:13
"btrueblood, I think you're going a bit too far with the makeup and other examples."

Please explain how a purposely created "public" Facebook page is any different than wearing your Sunday best and/or makeup and/or deodorant when going out in public?

"And by creating a fake account, you are misrepresenting yourself, "

How am I misrepresenting myself (isn't that a tautologY)?  I'm me, it's my page, and who are you to tell me it's wrong to have my son do it for me, or to ask people to post some nice comments to fill out the page and make it look right?  Oh, because somebody might read it and get a false impression of who I am?

How is that different than a lady putting on makeup, or wearing a pushup bra, or me hiding my tatoos, or etc. etc. etc.  People are two-faced;  the little white lie is a social lubricant.  Are you overweeningly honest in every aspect of your life?  Never driven over the speed limit, or driven home from a bar after downing a pint?  Never dropped a gumwrapper, or picked your nose, or farted?  Most of us have done those things at one time or another, but would not like to have the fact publicly noted/discussed, at least not with people we are not intimate with.  I'd rather not know your foibles either, and so would not ask, and would rather not visit your page, even if I knew you well.  But, if I really cared about my public image, and in some professions that image is worth a lot of money, I would not hesitate to "manage" that image.  There are people making a lot of money in this world doing exactly that management task for other, famous people, are they doing so "unethically"?   
drawoh (Mechanical)
23 Mar 12 16:29
ports394,

   I was not serious when I brought up the idea of collaborating on fake accounts.

   Having said that, this does not have to be deceptive.  If skiing, belly dancing and car racing, activities engaged in by EngTips posters, are indications of the sort of moral turpitude that will impair a new employees engineering skills, then HR has an interest in whether or not we are engaged in them.  But, they don't.  Nor do jocular discussion about your favourite drink, or pictures of your pets or of your vacation, all things posted on Facebook.

   In contrast, discussions about technical stuff and about professionalism probably will be found boring and will get you unfriended on Facebook very quickly.

   You should not lie to HR, but you are under no obligation to tell them everything.

               JHG

patprimmer (Publican)
23 Mar 12 18:39
Good grief, how many extremely boring terabytes would it take to tell them everything.

lets see how that goes:-

March 24 2012 09.34.00 am breathed in
March 24 2012 09.34.20 am breathed out

etc etc

Kinda sounds more like twitter than facebook though or at least that is what I presume from what I have been told.

We still have a right to choose what we disclose and what we keep private within limits and those limits are set by relevance and reasonable need to know and potential for abuse and even by law.    

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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for site rules
 

casseopeia (Structural)
23 Mar 12 18:48
I heard one report today that some employers out there are defending the practice.  I think it's actually worse when they claim it's voluntary.  If you are unemployed and need the job, there is nothing voluntary about it.  It's passive coercion.  Personally I don't give a rat's a$$ if it's legal or not legal.  For me it's the audacity of Hiring Managers to believe that they are entitled to the information.  I don't see anything wrong with doing a little housekeeping if you are out looking for a job.  It's like getting a haircut and pressing your suit before an interview.  For anyone who is unable to follow the link, find it at home by looking for, 'How to Clean Up Your Facebook Profile for Potential Employers'


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghIUfEgWCqI

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

IRstuff (Aerospace)
24 Mar 12 19:14
BT,

If those fractional portions of "1.3 wives, 2.3 kids" are showing too much blood; that could be a problem winky smile  Even if no blood, the fact that you're a bigamist 23% of the time might be offputting to some employers...

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

jmw (Industrial)
25 Mar 12 8:27
I think we should worry a bit about Google.
The new Terms and Conditions that came into force earlier this month ought to be worrying and may cause some people concern... especially if employers decide they want to know about your internet habits....I'm sure, in pursuit of the next dollar, Google will be only too happy to retrospectively change the conditions to allow them to sell whatever information they have, which is a lot.
It makes you realise that it was no mistake that street view also collected a lot of wifi data they weren't legally entitled to collect.
Google may be moving to the Dark Side.
Too many people who bleat about "Big Brother" and in the end what the government collects about you is nothing compared to the sum total of what people post themselves on Facebook etc. and what Google and all the others collect.
Switch from Google to Bing or any other and what difference will it make?
And if they (FB) are prepared to allow $1 per diem employees in 3rd world countries unlimited access to your data on the basis of some complaint, genuine or not, why should they care who else they let have your information?
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

drawoh (Mechanical)
25 Mar 12 16:56
casseopeia,
 
   Here is a good answer to a potential employer.

Quote (drawoh's imaginary friend):


I cannot tell you my Facebook password because it is complex, unguessable, and I have forgotten it.  I have it written down in a secure file at home.  All of my passwords are unique, complex, non-dictionary, and have non-text characters embedded in them.  Facebook's user agreement explicitly forbids me to share their password.

When I am given access to a network, I take their security seriously.  I follow good practice at assigning passwords, and I obey all user agreements.  

   Mostly, this is exactly what your potential employer wants to hear.  If they don't, then they are idiots.

               JHG

bridgebuster (Civil)
25 Mar 12 19:03
jmw (Industrial)
26 Mar 12 6:12
That FaceBook, I just clicked a link that opened a FaceBook page and found myself logged in. So while there I tried "account settings" and damn me if all the defaults weren't exactly the opposite of what I would choose.
Meanwhile I have been busy deleting Google accounts and switched to Bing. But I'm pretty sure you don't need a google account for them to be logging your every move. Try opting out where you don't log in but they track you anyway.... ideas anyone?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

ewh (Aerospace)
26 Mar 12 10:23
Maxa Cookie Manager?

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV

casseopeia (Structural)
26 Mar 12 11:51
drawoh, I like it!  So far no requests for my FB, though.  There really isn't much that would be potentially embarrassing.  I've been tagged in a few photos during troupe dance performances, renaissance faires, and county fairs and there is an entire album of my fish.  I also posted quite a few examples of landscape designs I did while working on my own.  If anything, I think my FB would add points.  But I still don't want to be forced to turn it over on principal.

I read one article that stated potential employers have downgraded candidates for things like using smileys in their posts.  I am particularly incensed at the few companies who have attempted to defend the practice.  Some people, particularly HR types, have no sense of shame.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

jmw (Industrial)
26 Mar 12 12:26
Its when they ask for your Eng-Tips Handle you need to worry. Especially those of us with a thing about management and MBAs.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

monkeydog (Aerospace)
26 Mar 12 13:42
Oh great, how do I tell a HR weenie to call me "Monkeydog"
drawoh (Mechanical)
26 Mar 12 13:46
casseopeia,

   I bought a GPS for hiking and skiing.  I posted some stuff on Facebook about it, all the while accompanied by my cat.  It took a while for the GPS to realize that we were not in Kansas.  It was too bad my cat is named Chico, and not Toto.  

   I also posted the GPS track after I took Chico for a walk around the block.  It was technically interesting to see how the track wobbled significantly more than I did.  MBAs are out of fashion.  I am sure everybody wants a CEO who uses GPS to track his walks with a cat.  

   I try to not use smiley faces when I write.  Usually, I am confident that the tone of my writing reveals how serious I am.  Sometimes, you have to use the smileys.  

               JHG

MacGyverS2000 (Electrical)
26 Mar 12 17:13
drawoh, how much had you been drinking before taking that walk? winky smile

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

drawoh (Mechanical)
26 Mar 12 19:53
MacGyverS2000,

   I forget.  Possibly a stiff shot of rye whiskey.  

   To do the wobbling indicated by the GPS, I would have had crash through or leap over a ten foot high chain link fence into a police training college parking lot.  I think I would recall something like that.   

               JHG

SteelPE (Structural)
1 Apr 12 17:55
Not that this is particularly pertains to this conversation.

I saw a program the other day about the ability for you to get your genome mapped.  The program brought up the pros and cons of such.  Kind of pertaining to the Facebook dilemma.... once you let the genie out to of the bottle there is not going back keep that in mind for the future.
jmw (Industrial)
1 Apr 12 18:12
Pretty soon governments will require it at birth. They already file USA citizens thumb-prints on their driving licences right?
In the UK the government is still rightly nervous about imposing a requirement for people to have and carry identity cards (I used to have one when they were last in force, and I found my old red driving licence the other day - bad enough that my current licence was held up as an example of old fashioned at Drivers Ed (Speed Awareness Course because it is paper and doesn't have a photo).


  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

FeX32 (Mechanical)
1 Apr 12 18:58
I don't get that. I am an extremely serious engineer, but I love to use emoticons on FB.  

peace
Fe (IronX32)

tz101 (Mechanical)
2 Apr 12 10:25
The solution, in my case, is to never have a facebook account in the first place. No data to worry about facebook not getting rid of, and any inquiries about my facebook account from prospective employers (do I really want to work for a company that is that probing into my private life anyway?) are answered with, "I don't have a facebook account."
jmw (Industrial)
2 Apr 12 10:39
And if they challenge you and say "we've found it." you claim identity theft and get worked up.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

MacGyverS2000 (Electrical)
2 Apr 12 10:44
Never had my fingerprints taken for my license... had 'em taken for my various carry permits, but that's different.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
2 Apr 12 13:24
It's just a privacy thing... how much information can you give up before it's too much, for a job?
spongebob007 (Military)
3 Apr 12 10:19
I am not on duty 24 hours a day (despite the fact that my boss thinks salaried people are) so as far as I am concerned, it is none of my employers or a potential employers business how I conduct myself on my own time.  I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.  It started back in the 80's with drug testing.  I feel that drug testing is an invasion of privacy because the test can't differentiate whether you were doing drugs at work or on your own time.  Next came the practice of checking credit reports.  Sorry, but unless it is for a security clearance or a job that involves handling money, my employer or potential employer has no business seeing my credit report.  There have even been studies that have shown that there is no link between credit history and job performance.  The latest thing is socail media.  I read an article a few months back and learned that a surprising number of employers will do goolge searches on potential employees to see what comes up.  I don't even really like that because I see it as snooping, however the internet is public and if you put your personal life out there for all to see (I can't understand why anyone would want to do that) then I guess it is fair game, but requiring password access and/or having to "friend" the HR person is going waaaay too far.  Right now it seems like this is isolated, but I really wouldn't be surprised to see this practice become more widespread.

No Facebook for me.  I think it's stupid.   
SnTMan (Mechanical)
3 Apr 12 11:14
If you were trying to kill off social media, this would be a good way to start:)

Regards,

Mike
ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
3 Apr 12 12:39
In some ways, I do think drug testing is a good idea.  Because drug testing can find alcohol too.

Most of those substances don't wear off right away.  Ever wake up still drunk, or super hungover from the night before (because you were out till 3am) and have to go to work at 8am. Depending what your job is, it might be dangerous.

Credit report, I think is unnecessary.

All of this just seems like insurance on the employers part.. to hedge their bets and get a "better" or "more productive" employee.  Just like when you sign up for insurance, if you aren't super super healthy, you can spend tons of time doing paperwork and pay higher premiums.
spongebob007 (Military)
3 Apr 12 14:20
I do not believe that drug tests can detect alcohol. You would need a breathalyzer or blood test to determine the presence of alcohol.  You would also only fail if you are drunk.  Alcohol is out of the system within 24 hours.  Some drugs can stay in your system for weeks-hence a positive result does not indicate use at work.  I have no issues with drug testing for certain professions and for probable cause.  But for me personally, I feel that pre-employment testing as well as random testing of employess in most lines of work is invasive of my personal life and being treated as guilty until proven innocent.  But if you need the money, you have no choice.  I have never held a professional job that didn't require a drug test as a condition of employment.  Luckily I live in a state that does not allow random testing except for jobs where random testing is mandated on the federal level (bus driver or truck driver for example).

I do agree that some of these measures are insurance in the mind of HR types, but we as a society are also to blame. Thanks to an overabundance of bottom feeding lawyers and sympathetic juries in the U.S. everyone has to cover their butts.  Let's say some guy decides to go into work tomorrow with a gun and shoot a bunch of coworkers.  The first thing that will happen is the families of the victims will lawyer up.  it will come to light that the shooter had three prior arrests for violent crimes.  Next thing that happens is the families of the victims sue the employer for failing to do a criminal background check that could have avoided this situation.  So you have employers running scared.  America used to be the land of the free and the home of the brave, but with every passing year Americans are willing to give up more and more of their freedoms in exchange for a false sense of security.  Soapbox rant over.
ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
3 Apr 12 14:30
spongebob, I looked up a drug testing service.  because I was pretty sure alcohol did show up in the urine.. that or one of it's broken down products that's correlated back.

http://www.drugtesting.com/urine-alcohol-test.html

Although urine alcohol testing will indicate the presence of alcohol in a person's system, it will not indicate an individual's current condition. Once consumed, alcohol enters the blood through the stomach within about 15 minutes, causing immediate impairment. It is then metabolized by the body and, after 1½ to 2 hours, will begin to show up in the urine. Therefore, urine alcohol does not give a true picture of the person's current condition. The results indicate the person's condition several hours before. Additionally, urine alcohol concentration does not directly correspond to blood alcohol concentration.
 
IRstuff (Aerospace)
3 Apr 12 14:42
> Where there's smoke, there's often fire, so a positive raises issues about whether you'll be under the influence on the job.

> Assuming only occasional drug use, it should be trivial to simply stop using during your job search, given that you know there will be a drug test.

So, to me, the actual drug use is moot.  The fact that you get caught speaks volumes about your self-control, your priorities, and your decision-making (judgement) process. And if the level is pretty high, I have wonder whether you'll ever show up at work drug-effect free.

And, if you test clean, then I know that you either don't do drugs, or you have sufficient judgement to have stopped using prior to the test, which is relevant to your job performance.

So the way I see it, a drug test does potentially reveal something about an applicant's ability to think-ahead, plan, and stick to a plan.  That's not even something you can always deduce from an interview.

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

SnTMan (Mechanical)
3 Apr 12 14:59
Ignoring of course false positives / negatives...
KENAT (Mechanical)
3 Apr 12 15:07
It was the poppy seed bagel, honest!

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

IRstuff (Aerospace)
3 Apr 12 15:22
And, if the applicant doesn't know by NOW to not eat poppy seed bagels prior to a drug test; that's yet another problem...

TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

KENAT (Mechanical)
3 Apr 12 15:33
As I recall some job offers (maybe not engineering) spring a drug test on you something like you must take it within x hours of being contacted about it - and this on job applications where you hear nothing for weeks then get something out of the blue.

So, I'm hesitant to be too hardline on the Poppy bagel crowd!

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

SnTMan (Mechanical)
3 Apr 12 15:41
Of course a false negative could fail to detect the poppyseed as well.
ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
3 Apr 12 15:45
A false positive can be taken care of with a retest, or a different version of the test.  Assuming they want you enough that they listen to you.

But if you get caught, and were really using drugs, during the interview process, it does speak volumes about you... none of it good.
Hoaokapohaku (Geotechnical)
3 Apr 12 16:44
I wonder to what degree this is being driven by a facebook suggesting this practice to employers?  Seems to me the entire economic value of the facebook business (and other cyber-businesses like google) is in what facebook knows about you and me so that information can be used for targeted advertising.  Anything facebook can do to make more people have facebook accounts from which they mine information about us increases the value of their company.
ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
3 Apr 12 17:32
If they mine our information and give it to employers, or let it be used against us for employment.. even stupid people will start leaving Facebook.... thus causing Facebook to lose ad revenue.
jmw (Industrial)
3 Apr 12 18:01
If they ask for hair follicle testing then short term abstinence will do no good, so far as I understand.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

FeX32 (Mechanical)
3 Apr 12 18:01
I didn't read every post. But I read this related article today. Some of you may be interested.
http://raganwald.posterous.com/i-hereby-resign

 

peace
Fe (IronX32)

ports394 (Mechanical) (OP)
3 Apr 12 18:31
FeX32, that is hilarious.
FeX32 (Mechanical)
4 Apr 12 19:13
Haha. Yea, I also enjoyed it smile. Glad you did too.  

peace
Fe (IronX32)

jmw (Industrial)
5 Apr 12 4:43
And the disclaimer....... roll2

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

FeX32 (Mechanical)
5 Apr 12 16:55
FuzzBuzz. Nuff said.  

peace
Fe (IronX32)

SNORGY (Mechanical)
6 Apr 12 12:15
jmw:
I have discovered that my opinion of MBAs gets me past HR and into direct conversation with engineers faster.  That is what I want anyway...
Had a FaceBook account...deleted it...never looked back.

Regards,

SNORGY.

DRWeig (Electrical)
10 Apr 12 15:39
I would pack up and move to Maryland if not for the weather up there.

Thanks MacGyver

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies?  Do so now: Forum Policies
 

MacGyverS2000 (Electrical)
11 Apr 12 6:30
Granted, it's just sad that we have to pass a law for something that should be common sense, but there it is...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

lacajun (Electrical)
11 Apr 12 15:22
That's like the HR guy inviting himself on an outing with your family and friends.  It's rude and you don't do it.

HR is there to look out for the company not the employees.  Some HR people have established a militant relationship with the employees.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

asixth (Structural)
22 Apr 12 7:53
This was an interesting forum. I wrote about this in 2009 about using FB to gain employment, thread731-261719: Does maintaining a social networking page help me gain employment

Why do HR request facebook login's. What can I do to use it to my advantage?

Back when I was looking for a job it was a case of first impression counts. From the time I first met a potential employer in an interview they would know within 30 secs whether they were going to employ me or not.

Seeing that FB has taken off further since '09 it seems that FB screenings are becoming the 'first impression'. I don't have a FB account because of social anxiety and no friends, spend all my time at work and Saturday nights reading thru eng-tips posts.

So should I start an account, keep it clean just to make myself more employable.

I actually copped the sack from my last workplace for posting information on eng-tips. It was over ethics.
MacGyverS2000 (Electrical)
22 Apr 12 9:16

Quote (asixth):

So should I start a [sic]FB[sic] account, keep it clean just to make myself more employable.

I actually copped the sack from my last workplace for posting information on eng-tips. It was over ethics.
So you were canned from a previous job due to questionable ethics while posting to an engineering-related website... do you really have to ask about creating a social media-based page?

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

Helpful Member!(3)  SNORGY (Mechanical)
22 Apr 12 12:09
I dunno.
I personally would be so disgusted by some idiot asking me for my Facebook log-in that, in all likelihood, I would launch into a five-minute acidic tirade over how stupid that idiot was that I would likely end up being escorted out of the building by security.
Of course, at that point, I probably would have decided in my own mind that I no longer wanted the job.
Asking for access to FB is just plain wrong.  No excuse for it.  The practice probably continues because we are intimidated into submitting to it.  When enough people stand up for themselves and stop putting up with the bullying, the bullying will stop.

Regards,

SNORGY.

beej67 (Civil/Environmental)
22 Apr 12 17:02
I think the guy in the blog points out all you need to know to school an employer on this whole "let me see your Facebook" thing.  

"I'm not saying I'm gay, but what exactly would you do if you found out I was gay by looking at my Facebook page?  Would you not hire me because I'm gay, or would you be forced to hire me because I'm gay, and are you prepared do deal with the lawsuit I can lay against you in either case?  Also, who's brainchild was this whole Facebook portion of the interview, and how could they not have thought that far ahead?  Will that business genius have any effect on my employment in your firm?"

If the firm is worth working for, they're going to realize how far out in left field they are once you start asking these questions.  If they buck the questions, then you would really rather keep looking for employment anyway.  

 

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

berkshire (Aeronautics)
22 Apr 12 17:34
beej67
I think you have hit on the whole Pandoras Box aspect of this thing.
 If a prospective employer looks at your facebook page, they are then presumed to, "know", what is on there.

 If there are things on there, they would rather, "not know", they are then out of luck. Especially if this presumed knowlege is used as the basis for a lawsuit.
  I am sure it will not take long for a few enterprising bottom feeding lawyers to come up with a way of generating money out of this.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

patprimmer (Publican)
22 Apr 12 18:12
Lawyers who help you sue people for this have elevated their feeding position a little I think. Anybody trying to intimidate you into breaking a contract with a third party and who is illegally infringing on your privacy deserves to be sued and the lawyer facilitating that had done the community a service.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

thruthefence (Aerospace)
23 Apr 12 9:00
I can see Facebook, as a business entity, lobbying for a stop to this HR foolishness.

Facebook is in business for one reason, to data mine it's members information, and sell it to someone. Why should these HR "amateurs" be allowed to use Facebook's material?

Or maybe they'll form another company, "HR concepts" or some-such, to sell info direct to the HR departments on a subscription basis?

I smell money to be made.
jmw (Industrial)
23 Apr 12 13:10
But though they may like your idea I bet they don't offer you any royalties on it.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

loki3000 (Mechanical)
23 Apr 12 16:40
i think it's illegal in most parts of europe. i know for my country that it can cost the prospective employer a couple of thousand euros (two figures come to mind, 4000-ish and 12,000-ish)
TD2K (Chemical)
23 Apr 12 22:51
Interesting discussion.  My former supervisor has moved onto another position with the company and recently sent me a 'friend' request on Facebook.

I'm not sure if there is anything behind his request but so far I've ignored it.  If I get asked, I'm going to tell him the truth and say I almost never log onto Facebook (which is the truth).
Helpful Member!  Gymmeh (Mechanical)
7 May 12 13:46
if you google (not that you can LOL) my FB page "1984" By George Orwell is  the first things under "likes".


I would never work for a company that did that.
Also as a person with minions working under me...

I would not want to hire someone that would so freely give out personal private info!!! This will indicate to me they would not keep company secrets/ proprietary info. which is very important in my industry.


 

DRWeig (Electrical)
7 May 12 14:18
Great point, Gymmeh. Until it's outlawed in my state, I'm going to add this to our interview checklist. Any candidate who gives out his password gets a question mark under "confidentiality."

I might ask 'em for their SSN, bank account number, mother's maiden name, favorite pet, and previous employer's VPN connection credentials while I'm at it.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies?  Do so now: Forum Policies
 

berkshire (Aeronautics)
7 May 12 15:24
DRWeig (Electrical)
""I might ask 'em for their SSN, bank account number, mother's maiden name, favorite pet, and previous employer's VPN connection credentials while I'm at it.""

 Dave- You are of course asking this to check the applicants gullibility right?

 You would not entertain any thoughts of financial gain, would you? neutral
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

DRWeig (Electrical)
7 May 12 17:40
Oh, heavens no, berkshire! But if I hire that person anyway, I'll have some other-than-golden handcuffs to insure loyalty. thumbsup2

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies?  Do so now: Forum Policies
 

AgeXVII (Electrical)
15 May 12 10:07
I will have to try to find the news article on it but there was one the other day I saw about interview questions that are asked more often than not but are illegal for companies to ask. I did not really pay too much attention to it but it had some questions such as "are you married" Here is the one I think I saw part of but there are more. http://www.ehow.com/info_7822102_illegal-questions-ask-during-interview.html

or this one has more to that list: http://jobsearchtech.about.com/od/gettingthejob/a/illegal_quest.htm

Nothing about asking for passwords etc but I agree it might be a confidentiality test when they ask to see just what people will give out.

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