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In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.
2

In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
Ok. I went to job site today and this if what I found.

Hydraulic Name Plate Info. (Each Hydraulic Plate)

Number of Sprinklers 320
Density .6 gpm sq ft
Design Area of Coverage 2500 sq ft

System Demand
GPM Discharge 1563 GPM
Residual Pressure at base of riser 115 psi

Static pressure at riser is 140 psi
1500 gpm fire pump
6" Mains w/ 2" branch lines gridded systems
3/4" sprinkler uprights 286 degrees
10 risers

One entire sprinkler system covers the portion of rack storage without In-Rack sprinklers.
Deck is about 30'
Storage height is about 27'
Product stored is textiles (clothes in boxes)palletized

Adequate or not?

 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

Natural fibers or synthetic fibers in the boxes?
Wood or plastic pallets?
Encapsulated?
Double-row or multiple row racks?
Aisle width?
Wet or dry pipe?
Roof slope < 2:12 pitch?
3/4 inch sprinklers. Are they K = 11.2 sprinklers?

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
Natural fibers or synthetic fibers in the boxes? Mixed
Wood or plastic pallets? Wood
Encapsulated? No
Double-row or multiple row racks? Multiple row
Aisle width? 8'
Wet or dry pipe? wet
Roof slope < 2:12 pitch? Flat or maybe 2:12 pitch
3/4 inch sprinklers. Are they K = 11.2 sprinklers? yes 11.2

To clarify not the entire portion of that particular sprinkler system (riser) is in rack. Maybe only about 30%-40%
 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

You have the required information. Go forth and calculate the design and confirm the system's adequacy.

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
Yeah. One Engineer did that and he claims to be adequate. I am just looking for second opinion.

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

Based on the height of storage, the sprinklers being control mode density/area, and treating the stored commodity as a unexpanded, cartoned Group A plastic, my opinion is the design doesn't comply with NFPA 13 (2010 ed.), Section 17.3.1.2. From your explanation, it appears that in-rack sprinklers or in-rack sprinklers and horizontal barriers are required, depending on the design option selected. See Figures 17.3.1.2(a) or (b).

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
OK so I punched the numbers myself and this is what I got.

If they are 286 degree heads (which they are), they need 0.345gpm / 2500 sq. ft. for 20' of storage.  At 25' it's 0.345 x 1.75 = 0.60 / 2500. (Refer to hydro plate)
This put their system design at the edge with no safety margin. Pretty much at the risk line.  
If they are 155/165 heads it doesn't work.
Their storage needs to be at 23' to maintain a small safety margin at least.

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

Unless you are using heads with a special application, I believe that all multi-row over 25' will require some level of in-rack sprinklers.

2500 sq ft design areas are typically seen with extra hazard and solid piled plastics.  Rack design areas are typically 2000 sq ft.  Something does not seem right in all of this.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
That is the whole whole point. At 25' with 155-165 degree heads it wont work at all. If he can bring that elevation down to 23' it could work with 286 degree heads. 155-165 degree heads will not work period.

Can anyone please disagree.
Take also in consideration that the existing hydraulic data is about 15-20 years old. That could bring this down to 20' height easily granted pump still delivers same output since that date.   

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

See below , I think it is a class IV commodity not Group A Plastic, see below

NFPA 13, 2010, Table A.5.6.3

Cloth
Cartoned and not cartoned
- Natural fiber, viscose Class III

- Syntheticd Class IV

BUT even if class IV, still inadequate without in-racks. See table
Table 16.3.1.2 Multiple-Row Racks of Class I Through Class IV Commodities Stored Over 25 ft (7.6 m) in Height

The 2500 design area gave it away, AND no in-racks. Does not sunrise me many warehouse designs are wrong, in particular when they that old and the occupancy has changed many times.

****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!


 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

LCREP (Tom):

I ask a different question and that is, how much of this commodity is not plastic? I bought a Carhart hooded jacket last summer for the nasty Texas winter weather (sarcasm alert). It's essentially 90% synthetics and checking on the materials, they are all Spandex derivative materials.

Now my one jacket does not make for a prudent commodity classification. However, I sincerely disagree with the NFPA 13 TC and there nonmandatory Annex. I find more problems in NFPA 13 Chapter 5 Annex A than solutions. In my world, it's safer to assume the warehouse will store plastics rather than assume it's a lower class commodity.

NJ1 asked for an opinion (from an engineer no less) and I offered mine. His building has got issues or is one pallet load away from becoming noncompliant depending how the answer is presented.

 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

Stookey (Scott)

I looked at this from an insurance point of view, so I reviewed NFPA 13, our internal commodity list and FM Data Sheet 8-1 COMMODITY CLASSIFICATION, for synthetic fabric or clothing it is classified a class IV. Does this make it the correct call, perhaps not, but I would be OK with it AND would pay the loss if a fire happen.

What gets me NJ1 indicates he had an engineer look at it and they said it was OK. I wonder what they used as the commodity and protection criteria??


Bottom line even if this was a class one commodity , metal in a cardboard box on a wood pallet, without in-racks as per NFPA 13 Table 16.3.1.2 the protection is not adequate.


 

****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!


 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

Stookey (Scott)

I looked at this from an insurance point of view, so I reviewed NFPA 13, our internal commodity list and FM Data Sheet 8-1 COMMODITY CLASSIFICATION, for synthetic fabric or clothing it is classified a class IV. Does this make it the correct call, perhaps not, but I would be OK with it AND would pay the loss if a fire happen.

What gets me NJ1 indicates he had an engineer look at it and they said it was OK. I wonder what they used as the commodity and protection criteria??


Bottom line even if this was a class one commodity , metal in a cardboard box on a wood pallet, without in-racks as per NFPA 13 Table 16.3.1.2 the protection is not adequate.

****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!


 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

All other issues aside temperature doesn't matter.

Quote:

NJ1    
7 Mar 12 19:49
That is the whole whole point. At 25' with 155-165 degree heads it wont work at all. If he can bring that elevation down to 23' it could work with 286 degree heads. 155-165 degree heads will not work period.

From NFPA #13 2002 Edition

Quote:

12.2.2.1.7  Ordinary- and intermediate-temperature sprinklers with K-factors of  11.2 or larger, where listed for storage, shall be permitted to use the densities from the high temperature curves of Figure 12.2.2.1.5.2.

 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

All other issues aside temperature doesn't matter.

Quote:

NJ1    
7 Mar 12 19:49
That is the whole whole point. At 25' with 155-165 degree heads it wont work at all. If he can bring that elevation down to 23' it could work with 286 degree heads. 155-165 degree heads will not work period.

From NFPA #13 2002 Edition

Quote:

12.2.2.1.7  Ordinary- and intermediate-temperature sprinklers with K-factors of  11.2 or larger, where listed for storage, shall be permitted to use the densities from the high temperature curves of Figure 12.2.2.1.5.2.

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
My only problem is that these hydraulic plates are over 15 years.
Another engineer looked at is and said same thing. It works with 285 sprinkler heads if kept lower than 23'

The only problem is that relying on data 15-20 years old could be problematic. Does the fore pump still performs at 150% ? I dont know.

We will see. I open some boxes they are mixed textiles. In other words it falls under fabrics.
I read NFPA 13-Storage Chapter yesterday about 3 times. I think it could work at 23' height or lower. Lets see. This right here is not my strong side of the field

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

Per Table 16.2.1.3.3.1 Multiple-Row Racks — Rack Depth Up to and Including 16 ft (4.9 m), Aisles 8 ft (2.4 m) or Wider, Storage
Height Over 12 ft (3.7 m) Up to 25 ft (7.6 m)
, you need in-rack sprinklers for anything over 15'.  

So, if this is multiple row racks like you state, without in-racks, it is non compliant, unless you are using a specific application sprinkler.  But, based on the age of the system, I doubt the specific application sprinkler was available at the time.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

NJ1

If you are in NJ check out training at www.chubb.com/lcu, they have a 2 day warehouse seminar which covers NFPA 13 and storage.  

****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!


 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
Yes I have heard of chubb. Let me tell you about chubb. The guy that teaches inspection, testing and maintenance does not ever have a certification. So why would I even want to do that. I just going to get more opinions since this is based on old data. I will keep you guys posted.

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

NJ1

I understand Chubb provides CEU seminars for NJ inspectors for the Division of Fire Safety and the Building Department, see brochure from the DCA below. I would think if the 2 organizations that regulate fire safety and building construction in NJ uses Chubb to train their inspectors they must know what they are doing.

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/forms/pdf_licensing/ucc_spring_2011_brochure.pdf

****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!


 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.


You've be provided design guidance on a very difficult project by several people, some whom I've met and some whom I havent't and yet you throw someone under a bus because one trainer isn't certified based on what you heard? Really? You should know I highly, highly respect (yes I said highly twice) LCREP, TravisMack, and SprinklerDesigner2.

My suggestion is to not ask for help again in this arena. Frankly I hoped this simple dialogue on sprinkler evaluation was not going to reduce itself to the qualifications of fellow fire protection professionals. But it did.

Good luck in any of your future endeavors.

 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
There goes again. As I have stated before here in many, many, many threads that I have experienced some serious encounters thru my 18 year of experience due to people that claims to be experts in fire protection but yet choke in a cup of water regularly.  

LCREP
My assumption is that you do not live here in NJ. Companies that have sent their guys to Chubb wont even waist their money any more. The inspection, testing and maintenance is and has being a class for  
people new in the field. No good for anyone that has more than 2-3 years.
It is great for officials since their level of knowledge varies too much from individual to individual.
Besides is a free country. Since my job with the state is to investigate negligent contractors my opinion stands.
Chubb has ties with government officials since is one of the only continuing education courses available. How do I have a NJ Building Plans Review Certification and cant even understand calculations properly. You get it.

Why dont you start a thread about chubb since you disrupted the storage conversation.

Be easy sport.   

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

2
NJ1

The only reason I suggested the training is based on your comments and question you need some help in understanding warehouse fire protection. You are not alone this is a very difficult subject with a lot ways it can go wrong. Look at the wrong table in NFPA 13, do not pick up on the type of plastic pallet being used, call plastic storage unstable when it is stable, pick the wrong commodity classification, guess on storage and ceiling height, will all result in a sprinkler protection system that will not do the job when called upon.

I see this everyday in my job I provide technical support to 70 loss prevention engineers. We look at warehouses everyday and many are not adequate for the storage configuration. We reject many sprinkler plans we review that are stamped and sealed by professional engineers because of the wrong sprinkler design.

My goal is to improve the knowledge of fire protection professionals, this is a tough business and we all need to help each other. I am forever grateful for the "old guys" that took me under their wing when I started in this business 33 years ago. I post here and other boards to pass the knowledge to the guys that do not have the experience I have so they can do a better job and learn. Perhaps when they become an "old guy" they will also pass the knowledge on.

OK I feel better now, I am off the soap box.




 

****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!


 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
I have no beef with any individuals here. I f anything I have refer many people to this forum. People like us that have spent many, many years in this industry looking to make a living and of course an honest buck. Unfortunately I have come across more thieves within the industry than I come across thugs in the streets. It is so unfortunate but it is real. My comments are only based on facts and internal pain rather than condescending or insulting. Believe me that if you ever meet me and my family you will be more out of the soap box.
Maybe you right. The chubb's design course is probably good but I just had to compare it to their ITM course which truly sucks. A good waist of money.
My whole freaking thing with this industry is that I cant understand why in the hell many, many companies, managers, inspectors, local officials can continue to mislead end users by interpretating the standards the wrong way by means of convenience, lack of knowledge or maybe ego.

Now that I am getting more involved on the design aspect I dont see any difference from the inspection and testing side of the business.
opinions are very common but accepting errors are like Hurricanes. It does not happens all year round but it comes it destroys everything in their path.


 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

Quote:

Now that I am getting more involved on the design aspect I dont see any difference from the inspection and testing side of the business.

I started laying out sprinkler systems 36 years ago.  It is all I have ever done. When I started 98% of everything was pipe schedule and we had three heads to contend with; upright, pendent and sidewall.

Twenty years ago Georgia was cowboy land where licensing wasn't required and all it took was fitter helper, two wrenches and a beat up pick up truck to become a fire sprinkler contractor.

I've seen the results first hand; a row of 1/2" standard response,standard coverage sprinklers 11'-6" off the wall and 1/2" pipe coming out of reducing tee to feet 4 sprinklers in a paint booth.  Some of what was installed 25 years ago is simply appalling.

To address the problem a few years back the Georgia Fire Marshal made licensing a requirement and the penalty for working without a license is a third class felony.  

Starting six or seven years ago Georgia requires all inspectors to obtain NICET Level III (not II like most states but III) in inspection and testing with each being issued a personal license, one that is attached to the company, to be able to perform inspections.

In Georgia as well each company location must have must have a certificate of competency holder and the only way you get that is to be Level III or IV layout technician.

Is this perfect?  Of course it isn't but in my opinion it is the best route so far. For example as a C of C holder I am required to visit a job site a minimum of three times and document that I have by filing a form with the Fire Marshal's office.  On larger jobs I might be there a dozen times or more but it is me and only me that can file the form.

On hydrostatic tests I am the only one that can sign the test papers.  I have to be there and I have to personally witness the hydro and the flushing of underground if underground is involved.

When everything is done I have to sign a certificate of completion saying I inspected the installation throughout the process and everything was done in accordance with standards and approved plans.

I take what I do very seriously because maybe some are to stupid to recognize what's happening but it's obvious to me the fire marshal is preparing to jerk the licenses of people who don't take their job seriously.  There have been some five figure fines handed out and it is preparing to get a whole lot worse.

I think it is going to become effective in June but a few months ago I saw a draft of regulations where if an engineer flubs up in specifications or drawing as the technician I am supposed to draw it up that way submitting a form on what I think is incorrect when I submit drawings.  At this point the argument isn't between me and the engineer it's between the engineer and his state licensing board.

As a result of this getting out it is becoming ever much harder to find an engineer that will seal drawings if needed.  Hard and much more expensive.

I also know the state is about ready to really start clamping down on C of C holders for not doing their job.  I, more than anyone, applaud this move.  

As for the inspectors who else?  I would guess Georgia has somewhere around 750,000 sprinkler systems and as of February 23, 2012 Georgia had exactly 125 Level III inspectors living in the state.  If everything was inspected per state regulation each inspector would have to do 6,000 inspections annually for an average of 24 inspections per day.  

It isn't perfect but it is better than no inspections at all.

The NICET layout technicians gaining plan approval?  It isn't perfect, and sometimes it gets downright scarey, but there really isn't any alternatives.  I believe it's ingrained in how the industry developed through the insurance industry 40, 60, 80 years ago.  

These same insurance companies, like Chubb, built this industry that has saved tens of thousands of lives and billions of dollars.  Chubb designs its training around the type of guys who will do the work.  I've found most to be your smarter than average fitter with a lot of field experience.  Who else you going to design the training for, people with masters degrees in engineering?  Should we take our experienced fitters and sent them to Harvard for four years?  [b]That is the best we got, it isn't going to get any better so why not everyone do their part to help make it better if you see faults?[b]

I got into detail about the way Georgia approaches the problem because of all the states I have, or have held, licenses (about 20 total from Alaska to Vermont) in my opinion Georgia has it most right.
 

RE: In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation.

(OP)
SprinklerDesigner2

I also have a Georgia License for Inspections. I am working on getting my contractors license there as well. I have to tell you that compare to other states Georgia is the best. They even have a portion of the Fire Marshall's website where they put you on blast if you do wrong.

You live in a state that has our industry at the top of their game.
I was in Atlanta 2 years ago giving a One (1) week Nicet Test Training at Alliance Fire in Loganville and I love the Town and also the State. Besides Traffic it is all good. But I Live in the real world. "The Garden State New Jersey"
It is bad down here. Companies loaning their licenses for profit. Architects pin pointing sprinkler heads for preliminary drawings when in fact their not qualified to do so. It is crazy. Can you believe I was at a building in Jersey City, NJ and I noticed some inspections tags at the riser from a NYC company. I called the NJ Fire Marshall's Office and in fact that company was not licensed by the State of NJ. I called Jersey City and guess what they told me. "They are Jersey City Certified". LMAO. There is no such thing. The NJ State only issues State certifications and not City wide. This is why I carry so much anger and is not because of forums like this  or individuals here but more with what is happening around us.
That is why our country should find a way to nationalized certain things. Period.
No beef again but more of an internal pain after so many years of hard work and still I have t sweat for my guys salary.

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