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weighing two job offers-HELP
6

weighing two job offers-HELP

weighing two job offers-HELP

(OP)
Hi all,

I am posting this thread to get some insight into how i should approach this problem if it occurs.

I recently interviewed with two companies who are almost direct competitors in the machining industry.  With the one job i would be trained at the facility which is very close to where i currently live.  The other position is similir but there is a 6 month training program in another state.  I will learn with 10-15 other engineers and we will then each become experts in our respective territories.  With this opportunity i will be away from my girlfriend for 6 months but it is close enough that i will be able to see her on the weekends and we will get some time off for holidays.  I will be put up in a apartment (that will be payed for) with the other guys and we will develop some comradery as we progress through the program which will be benefical for  us all.

Both positions are application engineering related.

So the question is which one is sweeter if i am offered both jobs?  And can i Negotiate salary?  

How do i negotiate? Can i tell each company that i have an offer from a competitor?  Are there drawbacks to this? I never have had the delemia if this is to happen.   

Its worth mentioning that the job that will take me away for 6 months pays hourly (vs other which is salary) and there will be overtime which will help boost my income.  I am extremely blessed to have had both interviews go so well.

Thank you in advance for all your comments.

thanks.

   

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

From the very little data provided, I would take the 6 months away at a proper training venue option. If the company pays you to be there including accommodation, you should be heavily focused on study anyway, so some separation from the girl friend weeknights is a plus. The weekends will be all the sweeter if the relationship is sound. If it is not sound enough to stand the test, better off finding out sooner rather than later.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

first off, congrats.

only you can make the decision that makes you the happiest or gives you what you want.

so, you are "hoping" for an employment offer and want answers . . .

everything in life is negotiable, so is income.  i would not recommend getting into a competitive bidding situation with potential employers.  you may end up not liking the results.  should you turn down an offer and are asked why, be forthright.  if they want you, the employer may consider more $ or otherwise.

i'd suggest you tabulate, compare, and evaluate the pro's and con's of each employers offer and then make a determination.

good luck!
-pmover

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Got a quarter??

Flip it and pick which one!!

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

When I was younger I took a job that required almost constant travel while I was in a training phase. The expectation for the position was for me to learn how the whole company works from top to bottom and then I would be assigned to one location. At first the job was exciting with all the travel and making new friends. After a while no matter how good the accommodations were I was not happy. The work life balance got way out of whack and the expectation was to work yourself to death. This position was straight salary and I got no extra pay for traveling or overtime. Needless to say the company didn't really need to work us the way they did but had to, to trap some people into the lifestyle. I quit after the training phase and moved on to much greener pastures but it really made me appreciate the regular 9 to 5 day job.

So if the relocation job really is temporary and the end result job is excellent then I say go for it. Be careful though because sometimes these companies sell these jobs well and one day you will wake up and realize how bad that are being taken advantage of.  

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

You can always negotiate...but the company may not.  It's OK to tell the company you have another offer you are weighing, is their offer the best, etc.  Do NOT tell them who your other offer is from, or even that it's a competitor.  The only drawback is that you risk losing an offer if you appear to be asking for more than is appropriate.  

As for which one you take, you are really the only one who can make that decision.  There is so much that factors into the decision that nobody else can know.  Of prime importance (if your relationship is important to you), do you think your relationship with your girlfriend is strong enough...and do you want to test it.  For some, that time apart will make the weekends that much better.  For others, the time apart may result in spending that time with other people, or realizing that you don't care as much for that person because you really don't miss being with them.   

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

2
I think that there is some really sound advice above, but I'd like to throw in a twist.  I have rarely seen a good engineer that spend their entire career in one place--good engineers will either outgrow or fail to measure up eventually in any job.  If you start with the assumption that you are a "good engineer" then you have the corollary assumption that you won't spend your career in one town.

The advice I give folks I know is to "get the hell out of Dodge the first opportunity you have".  The longer you stay in your home town, the more comfortable it becomes and the harder it is to take the step out of a job you've outgrown (I don't mean that you HAVE to change companies every 3-5 years, but you DO need to change the widgets you are looking after every few years or you'll be "that guy" who doesn't have 20 years experience, he has 3 months experience 80 times).

I'd take the one that starts out with you living out of town just to establish in your own mind that you can leave home and hearth.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the hourly vs. salaried differentiation.  I keep seeing hourly engineers "encouraged" not to report (but still to work) overtime "for the good of the project".  At the end of the day there isn't actually that much difference.  I've never worked hourly for a company (but of course my consulting business charges hourly, without overtime), but what I've seen as an outsider doesn't look all that sweet for non-exempt professionals ("exempt" means that you are "exempt from the burden of collecting overtime pay").  Engineering overtime is just too visible on a project-cost report and project managers work hard to suppress it, legally or not.

David

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

6 months away from "home" in another state on the company's dime should not influence your decision, IMO.  Will you enjoy working long term for Company A or Company B is the question.  Consider the PEOPLE, sustainability of the company, job, PEOPLE, money, benefits, PEOPLE, office politics, degree of independence you'll have, PEOPLE, stress, the technical challenge, and last but not least - the PEOPLE you'll work with/for.

In 33 years I've worked in 4 different states (one of them 3 different times) and 3 different countries (one 12,500 miles from "home" for 3 years) so a 6 month temporary assignment should not carry much weight.  Consider the things that will make you happy long term.  To me -  the people have been the key.

Good luck,
Latexman

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Short answer:
List and compare Pros and cons and then consider gut reaction.

But:
The time to negotiate a salary and benefits is now. Not some way down the line when you realise or think you've been had (or simply failed to ask the right questions).

The interview is as much about you seeing if they are suitable employers as them seeing if you are suitable as an employee.
Explore the options, they expect this at the interview and may wonder if you don't.
Of course, there is a difference between being up front and asking and with being demanding and greedy.
If you can research salaries typical for the job you will be better able to judge.
But if the starting salary is not so good, and they are investing in training - meaning they won't see any benefit for some time for their outlay - then it is perfectly legitimate to enquire about prospects, career progression etc. and to balance the cost of training against how it will benefit you in future.
One of the downsides of the intensive training might be that they expect to keep you in the one job for some time. That may seem a fair exchange for the investment but be sure you ask the right questions about it.
As ever, list what you want to know and make sure you cover everything. No brownie points will be lost if you take a crib sheet in to make sure you ask all the right questions (thoroughness is a trait they ought to value).

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

PS if you want to know anything, just ask.
The same goes for salary. SInce this is important, you have to ask.
And, if you don't ask you don't get.
I think you have to be very careful about using "other prospects" as a lever. It is OK to let them know you are looking at other opportunities and asking more detailed questions will fit this.
If they know you are looking at more than them and asking the right questions but don't put them under the hammer, then you leave it to them to judge how much they want you. IF they want you they need to look for ways to sweeten the pot off their own initiative.
They may not appreciate being put into an auction as they don't like to be forced to raise the ante and it may raise doubts about whether you will always be looking for the greener grass and in which case they may think twice about training someone who will then up sticks on them.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

If your girlfriend is holding you back, you need to dump her. If you're afraid to be awayy from her, she needs to dump you.

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

It seems the real question is, 'what do I decide if I am offered/negotiate a really great, hard-to-pass-up deal that requires a 6 month stay out-of-state.'  If the offers are equal, there is less of a dilemma isn't there?   I can fully appreciate a reluctance to move away from home, even if it is temporary.  Here are the things that I would ask myself;

Do I have obligations at home (pets, elderly parents, maintenance on a home) that can be transferred for 6 months?  

How much would it cost to pay to have these obligations covered while I'm gone?

Would I be going to a place that I've always wanted to see, would it be an adventure, is it exciting, etc.  This requires a different answer if you are located for example in Ottumwa, Iowa and were looking at an all-expenses-paid training in Chicago, Illinois, vs the other way 'round. (no offense intended to those who may be in Ottumwa.)

Can I tolerate missing my hobbies/social activities/outside interests at home for 6 months?  Looks frivolous, but maybe you are an amateur radio broadcaster and just scored a rare opportunity to do the farm report on local radio in Ottumwa.  (Really, no disrespect intended)  

Things NOT to consider in you decision is the girlfriend.  If your relationship isn't strong enough to last through 6 months of training with weekend visits, then you are just delaying the inevitable.
 

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

I'm glad casseopeia has mentioned some realities. Perhaps it really doesn't matter to most people, but the things that make me happy (and I'm a happy guy) are: my house, my cat, my soldering iron, my soccer team, tutoring, soccer coaching, my fridge, my gf 5 mins away, my bike, my other bike, my motorbike, my friends, my local pub, my computer, my bed, my gym, my daily routine, and my job. These things have take years to get just right. Losing all those things for six months would be depressing for me. And I mean "losing" - none of them can be enjoyed in any worthwhile fashion when your weekend is filled with traveling and catching up.

Some (most?) people love that lifestyle. If you don't have anything established, other than your gf, then it's much easier. I wouldn't consider 6 months specific training worth it. You'll learn where ever you are.

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

6 months in a small focused group of hand selected peers will teach you more than on the job or uni could in 3 years, especially because it is remote from all the things just listed.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

6 months without your girlfriend? Man, I wouldn't do that if you're really into her. Jobs come and go. The woman of your life comes once. Is she? It's up to you to decide.

Don't trust all the bull about great job opportunities. I'm sick of all these great life lessons about how important is your job and how many sacrifices you must do to achieve stardom. We've all seen that when the problems do come along it's not your job that keeps you going, it's your support system (i.e. gf, wife, other wife, lover, other lover, kids, pets, parents, saxophone lessons, model plane building, etc, etc...). I tend to stick to mine.

 

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

I don't know, avs... my wife takes exception to my other wife.  That kind of support system will destroy any happiness inside or outside of work...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Latexman provided a keen insight--at the end of the day the people you work with have a significant impact on your quality of life.  Problem is that any population is fluid.  I've had wonderful bosses that worked hard to create an environment that was great to work in.  I've had other bosses that felt that if anyone was happy then they weren't doing their job.  Same with co-workers.  I've had peers that were just a joy to work with, and I've had co-workers that I'd rather not have been joined at the hip with.  All this was in basically the same job.  So you pick a job because the boss says all the right words, get moved in and start, and that boss goes to his next assignment on the other side of the world.  How's the "people" thing then?

The folks that think that their favorite bike path is the ONLY bike path in the world that they'll enjoy are rationalizing.  The people that think that the soccer team they mentor is the only soccer team on the planet that needs a mentor are rationalizing.  The people that think that their pick-up game is the only pick-up game they'll ever find are rationalizing.  I used to be heavily involved in Boy Scouts.  I was once instrumental in chartering a new troop and helping to define the new troops personality and "traditions".  Then I transferred out of state.  Know what?  In the new state there were Boy Scout troops that needed adult volunteers and I was welcomed into one.  And the old troop doesn't even remember who I was (many of the boys who started the troop now have boys in scouts, it has been nearly 20 years).

The point is that people live their lives wherever the hell they are.  Girlfriends become wives or memories, they don't stay in limbo forever.  Girlfriends and wives have been successfully moved from one location to another.  Milloins of girlfriends and wifes have successfully dealt with long-distance relationships.  At least as many girlfriends and wifes have not dealt successfully with short-distance relationships.

If you let your "now" limit your future, then you will reduce your chance of achieving your potential.  I always treat the place I'm living as a detail.  I've I've built personal relationships that are important to me, then those relationships will continue if I (or they) move away.  If I do stuff I like in a place; that is great, but I know I'll find stuff that I like in the next place.  It is just details.

David

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

You are trying to focus your decision on what happens the first six months on the job.  Instead, you should be looking at what will happen for the several years after the first six months.  It doesn't matter what the training is like if you hate the job when the training is over.

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

fermjohnp, we don't have enough information. In order to form an educated opinion about which job would be better for you in particular, we need to know about what your personal preferences are, what you find interesting about the work that you do, what you dislike, and what you need in terms of a support network outside of the job itself. I took what I thought would be a once in a lifetime offer a few years ago. The pay was well beyond anything that I had ever imagined I would be earning, and the work itself I had done for years for a competitor. I wasn't thrilled about where the job was located, and didn't really know very many people in that area, but figured I would make friends and get settled in after a short transition period. It seemed like a slam-dunk. Then I got there. It was by far the most dysfunctional company I had personally ever worked for. I hated it, and quit after 2 months.

Sometimes, it's not what they tell you during the interview, but what they don't tell you that really matters. Keep your eyes open, and don't blindly accept that what they are telling you is the gospel truth. There may be more to the story than they let on.

Maui   

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Pat, most of them are dysfunctional - it's usually just a matter of degree. One of the tell tale indications that a company is suffering from these issues is a high turnover rate, especially in this economy. How the employees interview can also tell you a great deal about the environment if you know what to look for. I'm sure that Cass could provide some additional insights to this discussion based on her recent experience.

Accepting a new position is always a gamble, for both you and for your employer. Good luck fermjohnp, whatever you decide.

Maui

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

My 2 cents:

Don't pit one job against the other.  You say that there are 10-15 people.  Do you think they care if it's 9-14 other people instead?  Not likely.  You can perhaps negotiate salary, but only a few percentage points.  You don't say if this is entry level, but I have a hunch it is.  If so, I would say NO to salary negotiation.  There are a lot of fish (or engineers) in the sea right now. The job with the 6 months training looks good but I'm curious why they are hiring so many.  New positions or high attrition?

I disagree with avscorreia.  If you didn't have a girlfriend, would this make your decision any easier?  Make your decision on this basis.  Perhaps you choose the local job anyway.Twenty years from now when you are married to the 7th girlfriend after this one, you will be happy.   Girlfriends come and go, and they are all over the place.  Just look outside your window.  The right job is way, way more elusive.  I must admit that I say this married to a woman who has in the past put up with me being gone for 1- 1 1/2 months at a time.  I think I am lucky in the job and spouse sectors.

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Quote:

Girlfriends come and go, and they are all over the place.  Just look outside your window.
They may be when you are fresh from the education factory but as you age you will find that the situation changes (though on the plus side the age range of prospective GFs expands).

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

JMW, lol.

OP, I was in a similar situation to you 4 years ago.  I was waiting on some interviews-offers locally, and got a great offer to live 3-5 hours from home and train for 6months-1year, and then eventually move to where ever they wanted me. I had been dating my girlfriend for about a year at that point.

I lived in a MOTEL, not an apartment, for a year, and then moved to the frigid north...but I have the job that I wanted. I still can drive home every few weekends 5-6 hours away and see friends and family.

How do you define yourself? Are you an engineer...a family man... etc.  I would not base any decision ON her.  Perhaps you should be discussing this WITH her. This is the time to talk about where your relationship is going.  Maybe she doesn't want to date you long distance.

The clear option to train for 6 months in a structured setting is beneficial.

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Quote (ports394):

  I would not base any decision ON her.

Of course not. Then you're not really using your brain, are you? wink

V

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Quote (ports394):

I had been dating my girlfriend for about a year at that point.
Are you still with her? winky smile

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Macgyver, nope.  We broke up when I decided to take the job.

Vc66, the second sentence was the important part.  She should be included in this discussion about his future, not us.

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Quote (MikeTheEngineer):

Got a quarter??

Flip it and pick which one!!
What if it lands on it's side.

Michael

"It's not the size of the Forum that matters, It's the Quality of the Posts"

Michael Cole
Boston, MA
CSWP, CSWI, CSWTS
Follow me on !w¡#$%
@ TrajPar - @ Shweep
=   ProE        = SolidWorks
 

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

update please fermjohnp!

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

(OP)
Hi All / casseopeia

So i have been offered both positions!

My gf understands the positon i'm in and she says she will stand behind whatever decision i make.


About salary negotiation with the first offer. I interviewed with a assistant manager(who i will report to), along with her manager and another techician.  Her manager was foreign he did not talk very much though i'm sure he is extremely inteligent.  On the second interview i interviewed with an account executive and the assistant manager again.  Now i also have emailed the HR person a bit about questions i have.  Who do i send the counter leter offer to?  all parties, just assit manger and acc exec.  Also how do i say in the counter letter that i have another offer if i do at all? - i don't want to say whether its higher or lower because i feel so many ppl use that line even if they dont!  FYI i'm sure they think i will counter, they came in lower than i make now and they sent an unoffical offer thro email.

Also i have never written one of these before so more for me to learn about how to write  a good counter offer letter.

Thanks for all your comments everyone.
I look forward to your responses.

and yes the training program with offer#2 is probably entry level however they want me! and pay will be very comparable...They said i was the exact candidate they were looking for.  

thanks again and i appreciate your responses.

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

There's no need to be specific... I would say you are currently considering multiple offers, you are interested in the position offered (assuming that's true... don't lie about it if you're not), and is there any negotiating room in the previous offer.  That gives them the opportunity to decline making any changes to the offer without feeling like you're holding them hostage.  Approach with delicacy and you'll both be in a good position.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

You could try the dilemma approach.

You prefer the job with them for bla bla bla (be honest in this) but you have other offers, some at higher pay. Do not be specific in any way including numbers or the other parties.

If there offer was higher, there would be no dilemma and you could start immediately.

As soon as you mention a number, you are past the point of no return. Never bluff unless your prepared to be called.

Never give into pressure to name other offers or numbers. If pressed hard, say it's confidential and you don't betray confidences.

 

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

I have been in this position before. You will want to disclose to each party that you currently have an outstanding offer from another company, and that you need to decide which one is the best fit for you. But you should not disclose the company name, or the amount of the offer for confidentiality purposes. They will respect you for this because they will be confident that you are not disclosing this information to the other party too.

If they really want you, they will improve their offer. Keep in mind that there are ways to improve the offer in addition to (or in place of) an increase in salary. Negotiating an extra week of vacation is a fairly common result in these situations. If your time off is important to you, you may want to consider mentioning this if the salary bump is not enough for you to accept the offer.

Also be certain to ask them when they need to have your decision. There is a time factor here that is important. If you turn them down, they will need to go back to the other candidates and make an offer to one of them. And the longer they wait to hear back from you, the greater the possibilty that their second choice will no longer be available.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide!

Maui  

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

(OP)
Who does the counter letter go to? HR? or person i interviewed with.

At the second job interview he didn't really know what my salary was going to be.

thanks,

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

(OP)
magyeverS2000,

Is it really that easy??? send a email to my contact at the company asking if there is any wiggle room and that i am reviewing other offers.  

I read an article stating that you need to write a 3-4 paragraph counter letter and have done your research for engineers in that area with your experience level and what they currently are payed. ex: salary.com / payscale.com / jobstar.org/ ect.  This should be put in the counter offer if it is lowered than  u expected.

thanks for advice.

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

I find most of those online articles to be complete bunk for anyone other than other marketers...

Writing out a long letter is unnecessary, IMO... and adding detail about what other engineers in your field make is likely going too far (I know if someone sent that to me, I'd consider them a bit too anal, as well as feeling they were merely trying to squeeze a few extra dollars out of me).

I would suggest having a 5 minute phone call with the hiring manager expressing your concerns, gauge his reaction, and go from there.  Give them an opportunity to make a second offer without forcing them to decide between a second offer and just dropping you altogether for the hassle.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

What others get is irrelevant.

That you have other offers is highly relevant, BUT the details beyond you have other offers is:-

1) Confidential.
2) Not in your best interest to disclose.

A letter of two sentences is more than enough. A phone call to the person who would be choosing who to hire, most likely your prospective boss, or his boss is better. They will probably refer you to HR, but will also probably give HR a heads up on how bad they want you and how hard to negotiate.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

(OP)
Hi all,

update? i'll provide.

I haven't heard from the first company. i sent a short 5 sentence response to them about neg wiggle room.  It was thought out and i know was delicate.  It has been a day....no response.

The second company i talked with hr about the benefits and both my manager and his manager.  They knew i was asking for a bit more money.  The national manager was very plesant with me about the training program and tried to answer any other additional questions i had.  I get a great impression about them and the company.  The other company seems so typical BIZ while this company seems more relaxed.  Seeing as i have come from such a BIZ company although small the relax company seems like a better fit.  I still have a few other questions but overall the phone experiences went well with both managers.  They seem to really believe in me and think i will be a great employee.   I don't think i can pass them up.  They feel I have a good background in sales and have the tech background they are looking for.  I CANNOT uphold them for more money.  Yes i have made decisions but with them i have a new slate.  A way to right some wrongs that i have performed at my current company.  I do not want to come off greedy.  They are giving us a great opportunity.    The manager expressed that i will have many options for overtime with travel / tool shows and get this after our 8-5 training day we can take additional courses online or play in the lab and get payed overtime.  Darn! thats cool.  He feels after we have all gone through this training program we will look back on it as the foundation for our success in the company and some reflect in 30yrs from now.

Oh and we get 1 payed vacation for 4th of july / and two extended weekends.  They'll fly us for free or pay for us to drive home.  The money they are investing in us is extremely high.  For our program they are  bringing in alot of experts on topics and we will cover not only the product we sell but software packages ect...  

I will easily make the money i was asking for by working past biz hours.  They all seem to do.  I actually did a simp calc.  If i work an average of 2 hours overtime per week I hit almost what i wanted. ahh Winning!  this number is probably pretty conservative too.

They are under the gun because this program starts in two weeks.  If i denied them they would have to find another candidate.  Not that i should care about them but i kinda do.  These guys seem much more relaxed than the other company.  I think i will enjoy my job and working for the company.  

Lastly, the national manager said i was a stand out.  I have exactly what it takes because of how i carry myself and because i have the BSME degree. I was like "dude i didn't say much".  Makes me feel good that someone has this much faith in my abilities.  Where i work i have been put down countless x's.  Its demoralizing and frustrating!

I may hear from the first company tomarrow but i don't think there is any offer they can come back with that will make me go with them.  These ppl want me and are willing to do so many things to help me succeed.

thanks for all your opinions everyone.  I have read all them and used them.

thoughts?

thanks again guys.
fermjohnp

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

Quote (fermjohnp):

I will easily make the money i was asking for by working past biz hours.
This could be said of all hourly jobs... "If I work 80 hours a week, I'll make twice as much as those 40-hour guys!"

Overtime is not guaranteed, and you can't claim it as salary if you move to another job... i.e., you're starting off at a lower salary.

I'm not saying your decision isn't a good one, just adding something to keep in mind.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: weighing two job offers-HELP

(OP)
I understand but i don't think I want the pressure of being the highest payed new hire in the class. The Natinal manager said i was the most grommed tho.  ya for me.  Maybe i've actuall making the most money, and i don't know it.

thanks macgver2000.  The final salary is what matters.

 

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