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Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
5

Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
Hypothetical:

-Currently Employed at a job you don't enjoy.
-Just got offered a job at a new employer that (surprise surprise) seems like a better fit.
-Employees at this new job go through a training period during their first year.

-You have made a prior commitment (nothing legally binding, though) to travel Europe for a month in September.  This is possibly a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and money is not an issue.  

Do you bring this up immediately after the offer and hope that they see past it?  

Do you work there for, let's say, 4 months to get a feel for the job and hopefully develop a positive relationship with superiors and then talk about month of leave without pay once you've established your abilities?

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

You have most leverage after the offer and before starting.
Best time for you to take your trip, from the new company's perspective, is also before starting, but if you can't schedule it that way, don't surprise your new boss so soon.


 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Have you accepted the offer?  If you haven't, a letter or email that says something to the effect of 'before I consider the offer, I feel it important to let you know that I have plans to travel to Europe for the month of September.....If you would like to revise the offer to reflect a mutually acceptable arrangement...etc.'.  You get the idea.

Ideally you'd bring this up during the interview process or during compensation discussions.  Don't blindside your boss right after you start, or at least tell them as soon as you start your new job. Don't lie about the reason for the absence.  It's too late now to pull it off as family emergency leave.
 

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Agree with Mike. You have negotiating you can do with the offer in hand before you commit to taking the new job, and I believe most employers expect to have to accommodate prior commitments (unless they are related to other employment or the job you are leaving).  

After you start the new job, your bargaining position is gone. You're caught, on the hook and reeled in. Right now, you can say no and stay at your job even though you don't like it. Plus, they have offered you a job. That means they think your abilities are really promising at this point.

I've done it before once. -- gotten an offer, then gone back to the table with something like, "The money's good and I love the company, but I'm leaving a place at which I had earned six weeks of vacation per year, I'd like to see how close you can come to that. It would be a big lifestyle shock to go back to the entry-level one week per year. Oh, and my wife and I have committed to a month in Korea this coming October, so we'll need to arrange for me to be gone then as well." It worked for me.

That's my advice. Of course, according to my wife and kids, my advice is worth a cup of coffee if you add a dollar to it.



 

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies?  Do so now: Forum Policies
 

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

If you have already committed to accepting the job, you have committed. Do you understand what a commitment means. I guess if you have and if you did, you would not be asking. If you have not yet committed, Mike has it right. You need to negotiate the leave before you commit to the new boss to take the job.

No one likes to strike a deal, then have someone else come back shortly after and screw them over for extras. If someone did that to you, how would you react. If someone did it to me I would fire them on the spot.

It is extremely rare that something is truly a once in a lifetime opportunity unless you are at the bucket list stage.  

Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

I have had new employees with the same "problem".  We either held off their start date or just gave them a leave (no pay).

But be up front.  Suggest what you would think would be fair.

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

The truth is always the correct answer.

Tell them you have a trip planned to Europe, and give them the dates.  If they reject you in favour of another candidate on that basis, then so be it.  Imagine what the future would be like with that company every time you have vacation plans, only to find that their attitude is that *they* completely control what time in the calendar that they will make available to you.

You'd end up leaving anyway.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
Thank you guys for some great input!  

OK as long as everyone has already assumed this is my personal issue (haha)... I had my phone interview and the interviewer said "If I could hire you right now I would... I am putting in my official recommendation to have you hired and you should receive an offer in about a week."  

So, technically, I don't know what the offer is, however the job itself is something I've wanted to pursue and I'm unhappy with my current location so even with a pay cut I would take the position.  

I wish I could be a bit more forthcoming with the description of this job, but I'm paranoid that there would be consequences in spilling the beans.  It's an attractive job and I would hate to lose the opportunity by being honest before I establish my ability to perform.  

But that's just me being selfish and possibly unethical.  I appreciate the input, though.  I really do.  Haven't gotten the offer yet so I still have time to think about my plan of attack.

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Wait until you get the offer - then negotiate.  IF they really want you - they will make accommodations.

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
OK, I'm pretty sure I've made my decision about what to do.  However, I'm going to wait to elaborate here on the board until I get the official offer.

The job is fairly unique in nature, so it may change some of your opinions when I reveal it.  :)

Thanks again for all the input, it has helped me figure out what is reasonable to expect.   

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

You're going to be training astronaut chimpanzees?  Sorry, but anything else would barely qualify as "unique" in this forum!

Seriously though, if you are the one they are looking for, honesty will not be an obstacle, but lack of it could be grounds for dismissal after that 4 or 5 month surprise reveals itself.  But it sounds like you've made your decision already.  Difficult to give advice when truly so little is known about all of the subtle details.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Look at this point it may be too late, But if you have not already taken the job, tell them you have a prior/ pre-existing committment. Give them the dates, tell them you have already booked tickets
 Then see if they will accomodate you.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

You bring it up right after the offer.  You mention you have worked really hard and planned a trip to get your mind clear and relaxed.  Being upfront and something that is most likely true, how can a company be upset with that excuse?  I accepted a job in the past and said I needed 2 weeks of doing nothing to just relax before I took the job.  I think this comes across with just how sincere you are.  And most owners of companies are well traveled.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
Still have not received my offer, but I am still expecting it since the interviewer told me it could be a few weeks before getting it.  

I will let you all know how the conversation goes and the outcome when it happens!   

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
OK, everyone here's the update:

Just got my offer e-mail today.  The job I have been talking about and referring to its uniqueness is at The US Patent Office as a Patent Examiner.  

GS-7 Step 10, $67k starting salary.  Start date was supposed to be March 12, but on the email it has been moved to May 7th (obviously).  The problem with this whole thing is that the first 8 months is a training phase where they will not allow you to miss work and fall behind.  If you don't pass training, you don't continue working at the USPTO.  Apparently there were 3,000 applicants, it's quite the attractive job opportunity.  

So... Now my next move is to call them and tell them about my dilemma and ask for a deferment until October when I'm back from Europe.

I'm hopeful but not optimistic.   

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

My guess is that the USPTO will move on the the next candidate as soon as they stop laughing.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Cass is right, I'm afraid.  The supply (1 job), demand (3000 applicants) balance is not in your favor.  You will probably have to choose between the job and the trip.

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Yup, government is a whole different ball of wax than civilian/private employment.  Good luck.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

If you had told us it was with the USPTO, I could have ended this discussion in one reply.

The office has had a hiring freeze for a couple of years now, so the fact that any jobs are available is a miracle unto itself.  The training period is go/no-go... you miss a day, don't bother coming back.  Once you're past the training period, you can work from home quite a bit, but until then you're spending time in VA.

Start looking for alternatives if you still plan to travel... they'll move on to the next candidate before you've hung up the phone telling them.

BTW, your starting salary doesn't sound right... a GS7-10 is just shy of $60k.  To make what you're listing you'd need to be at least a GS12-4(ish) ([u]maybe a GS11-10 if they put you at the high end).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Sorry... you'd need a GS11-3, a GS10-6, or a GS9-10 for the D.C. area (and surrounding).  A GS7-10 is just shy of $55k...

I was looking at the base table, not the local table.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

2
Now that the actual real relevant facts are disclosed, this entire thread was just a complete waste.

The answer is so obvious that if you needed to ask there is no hope. For the sake of the office, I sincerely hope you blow it. Good grief.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

bpmirsch
You now have a real choice. Do you want the job or not?
If you really want the job forget the European trip !

B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Maybe I should push my own application a little bit harder now, knowing they need to fill a spot winky smile  I don't think they'd be willing to match/beat my salary, though... a major issue with the gov.  I'd love to work for the USPTO, but they just don't pay enough until you start to hit the mid 14's... and they never start you that high.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
Thank you to those that had a respectful response!  :)

To the others; I'm sorry this thread made you so angry.  Ask yourself why you would wish someone else to fail simply because they have multiple opportunities and a tough decision?  I know that if I "blow" this PTO opportunity, it is not the end of the world for me, only a minor setback.  Other things can come before work sometimes... Plus I am confident in myself and my abilities, so if I never get to work at PTO I know I will not be unemployed for the rest of my life.  

I appreciate all the advice given to me (and potentially others) in this thread EVEN THOUGH it certainly was perceived as geared towards civilian careers and not federal.  

As far as the pay, I'm only going off of what the offer states in the email.

 

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

@ bpmirsch, you will find on here, some are not happy unless others are not happy. I think its the anal retentiveness of engineers, sometimes someones screws are looser than others.

Good luck, just table the trip to europe, not much going on there anyway, most of whats going on has been around for a while and wont be going anywhere!

Also, Im sure your offer is correct, perhaps the tables have changed on pay rates, and not all know it.  

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

It's not about the OP's happiness or unhappiness; it's about his moral and ethical compass.  

Basically, the OP has wasted someone else's time to interview him, champion him, and make him an offer that probably will be turned down.  No apologies, no remorse, and a perceived cavalier attitude to the whole situation...

TTFN
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

While the OP didn't give us all the facts, did he know about the no miss training when he first posted? If he did, then yes, he wasted a some time for those that answered. If the miss no training only came out in the offer email, then the OP himself was presented with new facts to the situation and he has to consider how that plays into his short and long range goals. If working for the PTO is a lifetime dream job, you take the job and reschedule the vacation until next year, after the training. If the PTO job is just one to try for, then only the OP can decide which way he wants to go.
 

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
@IRStuff

Ah!  Now we're talking...  Back to the ethical questions brought about by my original post.  

When presented with (assumed to be) two options -- take the job or never get the job for the rest of my life -- what have I done that is really considered unethical to the point where you are demanding me to be remorseful?

Of course I want the job and I think I will/would be damn good at it; however, there is no ethical rule stating that if you interview and get accepted for something that you have to agree to it.  That's why they extend offers to candidates and ask if you choose to accept it or not.  

I will be apologetic to the interviewer if I do not take the job, that's for sure.  I asked for his email and phone number at the conclusion of the interview so I could keep in touch with him.  

Is the PTO ethically required to apologize to the candidates for giving them a week's notice to move across country if need-be (or moving the start date from March12 to May7)?  I kind of expect the answer from you would be "no".  Do you have a good reason for that?  

 

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
@looslib

Actually I'm glad you brought that up.

I originally applied for the job back in October of 2011.  Got nixed from that round ("Candidate does not meet minimum requirements").  At this point I knew only peripheral opinions about PTO and the job in general.

Then I applied again in November.  Got nixed but got further ("Candidate meets requirements but not recommended").  At this point I still did not know the specifics of training, I only knew that the flexible schedule happens after some probationary period.

Finally applied in January.  Hey, what do you know?  Got recommended for an interview!  :)  Ecstatic.  However, now I have another lifetime opportunity and through studying for the interview process, I find that the training period is stringent on attendance.  But the starting date was for March, so possibly by that time I'd be far enough along?  Responses to that question from PTO people sounded negative.  The offer process has been delayed for whatever reason and now the start date is May 7th.  

We will just have to see what they say.  I will be asking Monday for a deferred start date.  I will let you guys know what happens after that.  This gives you guys a head start on crafting your deriding and condescending comments!  Good luck :)

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

"Candidate no longer meets availability requirements"

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

OP

In my opinion, ethics cannot be taught. You either have them or you don't.

Presuming a right to mislead and waste the time of others and having no remorse for doing so kinda suggests you will never actually understand that. Words like egocentric, immature and narcissistic spring to mind.

If you honestly did not know:-

1) There where 2000 other applicants for this one job.
2) That the training course was fixed in time and compulsory.

Then my comments are unwarranted.

If you did know, I would be very pleased that someone or anyone of that character was not in a position where a high level of ethics and character is an essential requirement to do the job.  

Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

It would be ironic if one of the contributors to this forum also worked at the USPTO
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

BE

It might actually create in me a belief in a higher being who has a sense of natural justice, karma and humour.

Also it is actually quite possible that such is the case. This forum is open for anyone to read and not necessarily comment. Talk about a possible shot directly to the foot.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

Quote (ztengguy):

Also, Im sure your offer is correct, perhaps the tables have changed on pay rates, and not all know it.
Egg on my face... I forgot the USPTO has their own rates.  I was looking at the 2012 table for the D.C./MS/VA areas.

The pay sounds correct, then... a Grade 10, Step 7 is $67,589.
http://usptocareers.gov/Pages/Misc/SalaryRates.aspx
 

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
Update:

Called HR and told them that I would be very interested in the job, however I have something that came up which would have me missing training for 4 weeks in September (obviously not doable); I also told them that the reason would be more of personal nature in that I have an opportunity that I consider to be once-in-a-lifetime and that I am not necessarily optimistic or naive enough to think that PTO could accommodate me that far in the future.  

She said that she does know that there is no set date for classes that far in advance, however their goal is to hire 1500 examiners per year and that they are fairly steadily hiring GS7's and GS9's (assuming no hiring freeze from the gov't, could be a concern).  

She said she will get back to me after she asks about possibly keeping my name on a hiring list.  

From an ethics standpoint, she was very nice and did not indicate any frustration or dissatisfaction towards me; I still do not feel like there was anything wrong with this interaction or feel as though I wasted anyone's time.  If they come back and say they can't do anything for me, life goes on and I will simply apply again once I have a free schedule and hope for the best!   

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

That moral and ethical compass needs recalibrating. The person you spoke to does not care whether you get the job or not, there are 1,999 other applicants.

As my grandma used to say, you catch more wasps with honey than you do vinegar.

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

bpmirsch (Mechanical)
So how do you feel now, knowing that you have just blown that job opportunity.
B.E.
 

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them.  Old professor

RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job

(OP)
I appreciate the empathy, but I'm not "down."

I said it before, life goes on.  If I am unable to reapply this October, it will not ruin my life.  I simply believe that this would be a good job opportunity and that I would be successful at it, among MANY other things I'm currently enjoying about my life.  :)

I can only speak for myself and I know I'll be OK; whether or not you think I "blew it" or that you'd love to apply to the PTO is really of minimal concern to me.  

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