Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
(OP)
Hypothetical:
-Currently Employed at a job you don't enjoy.
-Just got offered a job at a new employer that (surprise surprise) seems like a better fit.
-Employees at this new job go through a training period during their first year.
-You have made a prior commitment (nothing legally binding, though) to travel Europe for a month in September. This is possibly a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and money is not an issue.
Do you bring this up immediately after the offer and hope that they see past it?
Do you work there for, let's say, 4 months to get a feel for the job and hopefully develop a positive relationship with superiors and then talk about month of leave without pay once you've established your abilities?
-Currently Employed at a job you don't enjoy.
-Just got offered a job at a new employer that (surprise surprise) seems like a better fit.
-Employees at this new job go through a training period during their first year.
-You have made a prior commitment (nothing legally binding, though) to travel Europe for a month in September. This is possibly a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and money is not an issue.
Do you bring this up immediately after the offer and hope that they see past it?
Do you work there for, let's say, 4 months to get a feel for the job and hopefully develop a positive relationship with superiors and then talk about month of leave without pay once you've established your abilities?





RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Best time for you to take your trip, from the new company's perspective, is also before starting, but if you can't schedule it that way, don't surprise your new boss so soon.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Ideally you'd bring this up during the interview process or during compensation discussions. Don't blindside your boss right after you start, or at least tell them as soon as you start your new job. Don't lie about the reason for the absence. It's too late now to pull it off as family emergency leave.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
After you start the new job, your bargaining position is gone. You're caught, on the hook and reeled in. Right now, you can say no and stay at your job even though you don't like it. Plus, they have offered you a job. That means they think your abilities are really promising at this point.
I've done it before once. -- gotten an offer, then gone back to the table with something like, "The money's good and I love the company, but I'm leaving a place at which I had earned six weeks of vacation per year, I'd like to see how close you can come to that. It would be a big lifestyle shock to go back to the entry-level one week per year. Oh, and my wife and I have committed to a month in Korea this coming October, so we'll need to arrange for me to be gone then as well." It worked for me.
That's my advice. Of course, according to my wife and kids, my advice is worth a cup of coffee if you add a dollar to it.
Good on ya,
Goober Dave
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
No one likes to strike a deal, then have someone else come back shortly after and screw them over for extras. If someone did that to you, how would you react. If someone did it to me I would fire them on the spot.
It is extremely rare that something is truly a once in a lifetime opportunity unless you are at the bucket list stage.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
But be up front. Suggest what you would think would be fair.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Tell them you have a trip planned to Europe, and give them the dates. If they reject you in favour of another candidate on that basis, then so be it. Imagine what the future would be like with that company every time you have vacation plans, only to find that their attitude is that *they* completely control what time in the calendar that they will make available to you.
You'd end up leaving anyway.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
OK as long as everyone has already assumed this is my personal issue (haha)... I had my phone interview and the interviewer said "If I could hire you right now I would... I am putting in my official recommendation to have you hired and you should receive an offer in about a week."
So, technically, I don't know what the offer is, however the job itself is something I've wanted to pursue and I'm unhappy with my current location so even with a pay cut I would take the position.
I wish I could be a bit more forthcoming with the description of this job, but I'm paranoid that there would be consequences in spilling the beans. It's an attractive job and I would hate to lose the opportunity by being honest before I establish my ability to perform.
But that's just me being selfish and possibly unethical. I appreciate the input, though. I really do. Haven't gotten the offer yet so I still have time to think about my plan of attack.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
The job is fairly unique in nature, so it may change some of your opinions when I reveal it. :)
Thanks again for all the input, it has helped me figure out what is reasonable to expect.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Seriously though, if you are the one they are looking for, honesty will not be an obstacle, but lack of it could be grounds for dismissal after that 4 or 5 month surprise reveals itself. But it sounds like you've made your decision already. Difficult to give advice when truly so little is known about all of the subtle details.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Then see if they will accomodate you.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Very good advice.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
http://bwengr.com
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
I will let you all know how the conversation goes and the outcome when it happens!
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Just got my offer e-mail today. The job I have been talking about and referring to its uniqueness is at The US Patent Office as a Patent Examiner.
GS-7 Step 10, $67k starting salary. Start date was supposed to be March 12, but on the email it has been moved to May 7th (obviously). The problem with this whole thing is that the first 8 months is a training phase where they will not allow you to miss work and fall behind. If you don't pass training, you don't continue working at the USPTO. Apparently there were 3,000 applicants, it's quite the attractive job opportunity.
So... Now my next move is to call them and tell them about my dilemma and ask for a deferment until October when I'm back from Europe.
I'm hopeful but not optimistic.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
The office has had a hiring freeze for a couple of years now, so the fact that any jobs are available is a miracle unto itself. The training period is go/no-go... you miss a day, don't bother coming back. Once you're past the training period, you can work from home quite a bit, but until then you're spending time in VA.
Start looking for alternatives if you still plan to travel... they'll move on to the next candidate before you've hung up the phone telling them.
BTW, your starting salary doesn't sound right... a GS7-10 is just shy of $60k. To make what you're listing you'd need to be at least a GS12-4(ish) ([u]maybe a GS11-10 if they put you at the high end).
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
I was looking at the base table, not the local table.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
The answer is so obvious that if you needed to ask there is no hope. For the sake of the office, I sincerely hope you blow it. Good grief.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
You now have a real choice. Do you want the job or not?
If you really want the job forget the European trip !
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
To the others; I'm sorry this thread made you so angry. Ask yourself why you would wish someone else to fail simply because they have multiple opportunities and a tough decision? I know that if I "blow" this PTO opportunity, it is not the end of the world for me, only a minor setback. Other things can come before work sometimes... Plus I am confident in myself and my abilities, so if I never get to work at PTO I know I will not be unemployed for the rest of my life.
I appreciate all the advice given to me (and potentially others) in this thread EVEN THOUGH it certainly was perceived as geared towards civilian careers and not federal.
As far as the pay, I'm only going off of what the offer states in the email.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Good luck, just table the trip to europe, not much going on there anyway, most of whats going on has been around for a while and wont be going anywhere!
Also, Im sure your offer is correct, perhaps the tables have changed on pay rates, and not all know it.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Basically, the OP has wasted someone else's time to interview him, champion him, and make him an offer that probably will be turned down. No apologies, no remorse, and a perceived cavalier attitude to the whole situation...
TTFN

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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Ah! Now we're talking... Back to the ethical questions brought about by my original post.
When presented with (assumed to be) two options -- take the job or never get the job for the rest of my life -- what have I done that is really considered unethical to the point where you are demanding me to be remorseful?
Of course I want the job and I think I will/would be damn good at it; however, there is no ethical rule stating that if you interview and get accepted for something that you have to agree to it. That's why they extend offers to candidates and ask if you choose to accept it or not.
I will be apologetic to the interviewer if I do not take the job, that's for sure. I asked for his email and phone number at the conclusion of the interview so I could keep in touch with him.
Is the PTO ethically required to apologize to the candidates for giving them a week's notice to move across country if need-be (or moving the start date from March12 to May7)? I kind of expect the answer from you would be "no". Do you have a good reason for that?
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Actually I'm glad you brought that up.
I originally applied for the job back in October of 2011. Got nixed from that round ("Candidate does not meet minimum requirements"). At this point I knew only peripheral opinions about PTO and the job in general.
Then I applied again in November. Got nixed but got further ("Candidate meets requirements but not recommended"). At this point I still did not know the specifics of training, I only knew that the flexible schedule happens after some probationary period.
Finally applied in January. Hey, what do you know? Got recommended for an interview! :) Ecstatic. However, now I have another lifetime opportunity and through studying for the interview process, I find that the training period is stringent on attendance. But the starting date was for March, so possibly by that time I'd be far enough along? Responses to that question from PTO people sounded negative. The offer process has been delayed for whatever reason and now the start date is May 7th.
We will just have to see what they say. I will be asking Monday for a deferred start date. I will let you guys know what happens after that. This gives you guys a head start on crafting your deriding and condescending comments! Good luck :)
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
In my opinion, ethics cannot be taught. You either have them or you don't.
Presuming a right to mislead and waste the time of others and having no remorse for doing so kinda suggests you will never actually understand that. Words like egocentric, immature and narcissistic spring to mind.
If you honestly did not know:-
1) There where 2000 other applicants for this one job.
2) That the training course was fixed in time and compulsory.
Then my comments are unwarranted.
If you did know, I would be very pleased that someone or anyone of that character was not in a position where a high level of ethics and character is an essential requirement to do the job.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
It might actually create in me a belief in a higher being who has a sense of natural justice, karma and humour.
Also it is actually quite possible that such is the case. This forum is open for anyone to read and not necessarily comment. Talk about a possible shot directly to the foot.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
The pay sounds correct, then... a Grade 10, Step 7 is $67,589.
h
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Regards
Pat
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RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Called HR and told them that I would be very interested in the job, however I have something that came up which would have me missing training for 4 weeks in September (obviously not doable); I also told them that the reason would be more of personal nature in that I have an opportunity that I consider to be once-in-a-lifetime and that I am not necessarily optimistic or naive enough to think that PTO could accommodate me that far in the future.
She said that she does know that there is no set date for classes that far in advance, however their goal is to hire 1500 examiners per year and that they are fairly steadily hiring GS7's and GS9's (assuming no hiring freeze from the gov't, could be a concern).
She said she will get back to me after she asks about possibly keeping my name on a hiring list.
From an ethics standpoint, she was very nice and did not indicate any frustration or dissatisfaction towards me; I still do not feel like there was anything wrong with this interaction or feel as though I wasted anyone's time. If they come back and say they can't do anything for me, life goes on and I will simply apply again once I have a free schedule and hope for the best!
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
As my grandma used to say, you catch more wasps with honey than you do vinegar.
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
So how do you feel now, knowing that you have just blown that job opportunity.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job
I said it before, life goes on. If I am unable to reapply this October, it will not ruin my life. I simply believe that this would be a good job opportunity and that I would be successful at it, among MANY other things I'm currently enjoying about my life. :)
I can only speak for myself and I know I'll be OK; whether or not you think I "blew it" or that you'd love to apply to the PTO is really of minimal concern to me.