Ask for a raise
Ask for a raise
(OP)
Our company has a salary freeze since April 2009. I came to this company in 2007 (did get 5% raise in 2008).
we do employee evaluation every year. Every time my boss said I have done an outstandig job and he was going to propose a raise for me. But he came back to me said that the big boss did not agree with the raise.
I am pretty sure the company did well last year (from the work load and bonus they gave to all employees). I also think they will pay more if they hire someone to replace me.
Does that mean I have to look for better paid jobs somewhere else?
Any comments?
Thanks.
we do employee evaluation every year. Every time my boss said I have done an outstandig job and he was going to propose a raise for me. But he came back to me said that the big boss did not agree with the raise.
I am pretty sure the company did well last year (from the work load and bonus they gave to all employees). I also think they will pay more if they hire someone to replace me.
Does that mean I have to look for better paid jobs somewhere else?
Any comments?
Thanks.





RE: Ask for a raise
Companies often give bonuses in lieu of raises, specifically because it's not a permanent increase. Likewise, workload may mean that the company underbid and therefore does not have enough money for raises.
The scenario that fits either or both should tell yuo what's what.
TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Ask for a raise
RE: Ask for a raise
RE: Ask for a raise
Each year management estimates how much money the company made in excess of what the spent.
Each manage has to forecast his next years costs for a variety of things and is concious that if he keeps his demands down some of the money he saves may come his way.
Similarly the directors will want to keep the shareholders happy because then they too will be able to pull down.
Your manager needs to know when he puts his budget proposals in which of his people is going to prove an awkward sod.
If for four years you have simply accepted no pay rise as the norm then he expects the same again this year.
Announcement of pay awards is way too late to start asking for or demand more money. He sure as hell isn't going to go back to management and ask for more money after they already spent the available budget on other things. It makes him look bad.
Especially if it turns out he misjudged you.
The usual time to do this is at your annual review when he gives you the BS about how good you are. This is when you have to hint/imply that you need some money this time around.
Afterwards is too late.
If your boss is going to tell you that your performed above average then he ought to go to bat for you.
But he won't unless forced to and you missed that chance. Now you have to finesse him into doing this of his own initiative after the event.
As often as not bosses will lavish praise instead of salary increases.
As often as not they will tell the same little lies to everyone about how times are hard, business is depressed, the markets are tough and how he went to bat for you, and only you, to try and get you something despite the current embargo on pay rises for anyone but that for whatever reason top management, while understanding, just wouldn't go for it.
If there was some money set aside for pay rises (usually a lump sum budget nominally shared out equally as an across the board rise) they will usually say that not everyone got a rise but by going out on a limb they did at least manage to get you a small award simply because of how well you worked. This is strictly conditional on your not telling anyone about it because then those that didn't get anything will cause all sorts of problems and how won't be able to repeat this next year.
You will only get even this pittance this if he thinks you are valuable to him AND there is a risk of you leaving.
This BS they feed everyone serves to do two things:
1) it makes everyone happy to accept a BS rise or nothing at all and you should be glad to have any job at all.
2) it makes everyone think that by working even harder they will do better next time.
It is surprising how many employees believe what management tell them. These guys could sell perpetual motion machines to physics professors.
Now, he may even have had some money to divvy up and he will not give it to everyone.
He will prioritize giving it to someone he thinks he might lose otherwise.
He may have a brown noser or two he needs to take care of.
But he simply won't squander what largesse he has on people who, no matter how good or bad they are or how "valuable" they are, he thinks they will (a) believe everything he tells them and suck it up and (b) look likely to live out their days working for the company come what may (or as near as he is going to get to this in today's world).
If he didn't give a rise but gave you the "I went to bat for you, and there are very few I would do that for, but I couldn't shift them." speech and you took it again just as you have for the last 4 years, coming back at him and asking/demanding a pay rise (or else) you will simply hit a brick wall and it may even frighten him into doing something stupid.
He may promise to "See what he can do" but the reality is he is going to use the time he buys to plan for your leaving or being canned.
What you have done is essentially make him think he made a misjudgement. He thought you were a safe bet for no rise and you now make him look like he misjudged you after he has already shared out what budget he had, if any. (If none it is probably because he didn't fight for a budget in the first place).
Managers don't like that. Because to keep you he really does have to ask top management for money over and above that budgeted.
On the other hand, you could ask for a one to one meeting "whenever you can find me 15 -20 minutes of quiet time"
"What's it about?"
"Oh, nothing urgent. I just need to take advantage of your experience and get your advice."
Make the request casual and be busy so you can terminate before he asks too many questions.
He will think that whatever you say, this is going to be about pay. SO he is going to rehearse more soft soap and be ready to pretend to go back to senior management etc etc.
But at the meeting (be sure to have a single sheet of paper with you and use it as an aid memoir which you can simply tear in half and bin in the room when the meeting is over as if it has served its purpose so he can sneak look and see what you hd written down.
You make the notes on this as rather/direct simple bullet points which will relate to much more carefully and neutrally phrased points you raise in discussion.
Pay is not mentioned nor is the idea of pursuing jobs elsewhere.
What you do is say you want his help and advice because you have been thinking about your future with the company. (It helps to suggest this is because your significant other is pressing your about advancement because significant others are the cause of much grief and always like more money).
You make sure you tell him that you enjoy working for the company, you are glad to have a good boss (even if, no especially if he is actually an idiot)and then you ask him what the prospects for career advancement and learning new skills to get as broad a based foundation for your future as possible within the department or the company as a whole (this makes him think you might want at some time to change departments) and you are not sure how realistic it is to expect to be able to advance much without you take on extra task that build new skills and if there is a chance the company might help in some way of you takes some external training etc.
And:
What does he advise? You would really appreciate his help and advice in this.
You need to make him think you are ambitious and that in the long run you obviously want to earn the big bucks.
The real objective is to make him think that you are even more valuable than he may think you are and make him believe all the BS he fed you at pay review time.
But the real objective is to get him to think that if he can't help you achieve your objectives (which should all be realistic but set a little beyond what he thinks the company can do) that you will go elsewhere to get that experience.
He has to believe the BS he fed you at pay review because he also has to belive/pursuade himself that if you go he will have a big hole in his department and a HR on his neck for increasing the employee turnover figures and making their life difficult by having to replace you. (On the other hand a frontal assault demanding money and suggesting you will go elsewhere, he will set about seeing how he can make your job superfluous, share out your responsibilities amongst the others and make some brownie points by cutting overheads by reducing his head count.)
You do all this in a brief non urgent meeting where he expects it to be about demanding a pay rise with menaces, and you wrong foot him by studiously avoiding pay as an issue (it is implicit in the quest for advancement and interest in your progress from your significant other etc) and building a foundation to advance, and by not mentioning shifting to any other companies.
You play up how you enjoy working there and for him and how you really think that this company can be where you really can achieve these things.
He will of course realise that your ambitions are more than the company can deliver on and he will for himself realise that at some point you will start to think about going else where.
But he has to want to keep you and he has to be the one to think you might leave.
He needs to frighten himself a bit.
Paradoxically, the way management solve these problems is to offer a bribe. A special pay rise wrung from management under entirely different terms. He will not ask for more money for you necessarily but may employ exactly the same tactics on upper management saying he has a really valuable employee and that he is concerned that he might lose him.
They will satisfy themselves it is ambition and your boss will assure them you are valuable and what can he do.
They may then ask if a little more money might help keep you while they see what can be done. If so, then you are home free and your boss will come to you and say how he called top managements bluff and demanded more money for you. He will promise to help further your career anyway he can.
He/they hope that if he throws some money at you, he can solve the short term problem.He will worry about yoru ambition later on when he has to.
You don't ask for money after the pay wards announcements and you don't threaten to go elsewhere.
Managers are well skilled at managing demands for more money and threats to go elsewhere.
Usually to your disadvantage.
On the other hand their solution to all other problems is to throw money at them - if it is their idea.
Of course, you have to reckon this may all fall on deaf ears.
You also should recognise that you will only get promises if you ask for more money and BS.
Threats to leave will only start them looking for your replacement straight away and then forcing you out when they find someone. And not necessarily at a higher price. They will simply farm some of your responsibility onto the other employees and employ someone less skilled to pick up the slack.
In tough times we have all be denied pay rises, seen redundancies on all sides and the survivors end up doing two peoples work for less than one persons salary.
So in any event you should be looking for a job elsewhere as insurance and because if this happens next year you will fall further and further behind the market and your take home pay will be devalued yet again.
Plus if your significant other is like most, no pay rise and a lack of progress will not go down well.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Ask for a raise
RE: Ask for a raise
Yes, move on, because if it didnt bother you, you wouldn't be on here asking. Good companies will reward employees with raises and/or incentives. Plain and simple. You cannot force them to give you a raise, because if they're "that" type of company they'll probably blacklist you even though it's painfully obvious that they'll have to pay more for a replacement.
My last company didn't give a raise or bonus, oh wait they gave $200 in cash for Christmas, so I gave them a 2 week notice when I had a new job in hand. Done, and I got a $20k raise at the new firm. ...and at the exit interview the boss had the nerve to ask me if I felt underpaid.
RE: Ask for a raise
no offense, gave up reading your post . . .
dcceecy,
yeah, commence planning a move to a different pasture to graze in . . . too much crabgrass and lack of moisture in the pasture you are currently grazing in. someone is appealing to your senses . . .
good luck!
-pmover
RE: Ask for a raise
They know that jobs are scarce and most people will stay at their current jobs raise or not.
US businesses thrive on greed.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Ask for a raise
It depends on the industry. Even in the worst recession for 20 years the heavy electrical industry in the UK is buoyant as the inevitable effects of the under-recruitment during the 80's and 90's start to bite. There's a lot of competition, and companies are poaching from each other. Wages are rising at long last. It is a good time to be in my industry, and it's very welcome after the nightmarish employment conditions in this industry which existed when I left school.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Ask for a raise
It's true that the confidentiality thing is their biggest hammer. In 2010 my company started off saying that the cost of living went down, so their will be no raises. Had they been to a grocery store, or a gas station? Oh, the CPI does not count food or fuel in their projections.
In 2011 we got raises and bonuses, but you still don't know how you did compared to everyone else. At Thanksgiving NBC stated that the meal cost 13% more than the previous year. It's representative of rising prices and a reminder that we are still behind the curve.
As stated above, the best chance for advancement is when changing jobs. When initiated by you, of course.
gjc
RE: Ask for a raise
The best choice is to find a job somewhere else.
my boss gives me work to do and decide my duties and responsibilities,
but someone else decides how much to pay me. it does not make sense. That may be the company is "smart" strategy at this economy. I have to work extra hours to get the job done to win the praise of "outstanding".
I understand "bonus is temporary not permanent". In this way, the company is stealing money from those underpaid hard workers. Because they gave everybody same bonus.
RE: Ask for a raise
1) It will fix your situation by allowing you to make more money and get out from under the situation that you are in.
2) It should improve the situation for the coworkers that you have left behind. Once the company realizes that talented people are leaving, they will either start listening to their work force or find themselves on the brink of failure.
RE: Ask for a raise
Most of the firm owners I know in my area were hard hit by this economic turn-down - we regrettably had to let some folks go - screwing up our long term strategic goals for the company - and also undermining our knowledge base of employees.
It is no fun to let your employees go. It sucks.
We cut back hours on our staff and took personal salary cuts to survive. If that is your idea of a line of crap - well, I guess you have a right to your opinion.
Are there some owners who take advantage - I would guess yes. But painting every firm, and every firm owner, with such a broad brush is incorrect.
The OP above is in a particular situation where the firm paid out bonuses but were reluctant to raise salaries. There is still a lot of uncertainty out there and also limited projects. This choice of theirs may make sense.
Each owner of a company has to weigh the risks of raising salaries (risking a bad financial cash flow and not making payroll down the road) with not raising salaries and risking losing good employees.
It is a very tough decision and requires a crystal ball.
And employees should weigh not only their salaries but also:
1. The work experience they get here vs. there.
2. The risk of loosing seniority at a new firm.
3. The loss of vacation/PTO time off - or the lower rate given to new hires.
4. The work environment here vs. there.
5. The impression jumping around to different jobs gives when pasted on your resume.
6. The fact that some firms hire in bad economies only to fill short term project needs - then out the door they go.
RE: Ask for a raise
But the sad truth is that far too many companies do fit the bill and often it seems to be the norm at some of the bigger companies.
One company I worked for we used to get a bonus, a good salary review, good opportunities for advancement and an Xmas hamper. It didn't last.
They did a management buyout.
(I've been through a couple of these along with all the mergers and acquisitions games). It's like monopoly. Making money the hard way by investing in R&D and selling stuff people want the majority of managers want to be high flyers and make their money buying and selling. That means making the company look good by cutting expenditures, which they can do, instead of growing sales which seemed beyond them. The usual victims are the employees.
In a £200M group (just under, so they couldn't attract the long term investors like the pension funds and had to make do with lots of get rich quick types), our group was coining money. But we still suffered cut backs, no pay rises year on year, redundancies so we could do two jobs for the price of one and all because our aerospace company was doing bad because the aerospace market was down. Our colleagues in aeropace didn't seem to be suffering the same way as us. Then a trade announcement informed us that aerospace had been sold for something like £53M. It also informed us that the money had been dispersed as dividends to the shareholders.
We got nothing.
We were privileged to watch a few more of these machinations before they finally managed to sell our divison to some mug company that thought the bit they were interested in was doing well. They didn't know it was another aerospace deal where the bit they wanted made no money at all and the bit they didn't want was bankrolling the whole deal.
SO even working for a part of the company that made good money did its employees no good.
And so when I make some sort of statement like " Times are hard and I really went to bat for you but the board wouldn't relent... blah blah" I am not making it up but simply quoting or paraphrasing the actual things I have been told down the years by a succession of bad managers in companies run by the sort of sharks who make lawyers look like party animals.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Ask for a raise
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Ask for a raise
I can say my experience with a large corporate conglomerate was every similar the jmw, there were many layers of management which had structures that made raises more complicated, cold, and structured.
I currently work in a really small firm... 10 engineers and if you talk plainly and prove your worth to managmanet you get a better raise. Also, during layoffs one of the bosses cried cuz he had to let 3 people go... its a small pretty tight nit group.
Getting a raise is relative to your situation. In the large Corporate company i asked for a raise at review since i was such a "great worker" a month later the raise never came, they thought they were calling my bluff... I got a new job.
RE: Ask for a raise
Not that you'll necessarily get the truth, or maybe the decision is made so far up the chain that even if you could turn water in wine (or maybe petroleum might be a better analogy for engineers) the message would be so corrupted by the Chinese whispers phenomenon that it still wouldn't sway senior management to approve a raise.
However, it is a way to at least flag it as an issue without appearing too combative/disgruntled.
Then you can continue your job search while employed and hopefully not being treated as a major flight risk.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Ask for a raise
I'll look for companies who can get good projets.
I just feel sad for all the extra effort I have put on this job and I don't know if I could do that for the next job with 5 years older and family.
RE: Ask for a raise
Seems you are experiencing what we all experience. The group does well and management play the "times are hard" card as if we are idiots.
Engineers do the job first, it seems, and then wonder later why they don't get the rewards just as you are now.
Whatever else, you should always do your job as best you can and get the maximum satisfaction for doing so.
That you can control.
You often can't even understand management and devoting your time to the politics of life is a tough but once you start to figure it out it gets a bit easier but not much.
Its just life.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Ask for a raise
RE: Ask for a raise
I dsagree in a lot of what you're saying
1. The work experience they get here vs. there.
The more companies you work for, the better the experience, you get a new way of doing things, you diversify your expertise, etc..
2. The risk of losing seniority at a new firm.
Common' man, seniority? this is not an airline company with unions. I was hired last once and was among the two remaining form 18 when downsized.
3. The loss of vacation/PTO time off - or the lower rate given to new hires.
PTO? I never accept an offer unless I got 4 weeks vacation plus sick leave. You match my benefits if you want me to work for you-it always worked.
4. The work environment here vs. there.
The work environmet already sucks where he is at? it always gets better when one changes jobs, - ALWAYS.
5. The impression jumping around to different jobs gives when pasted on your resume.
That is easy, if my tenure is less than a year, I just scratch it form my resume, yeah I lied and I did not mention that company in my resume, so what?, what are you going to do about it? fire me? (don't do this in a governement application though), private sector? knock yourself out.
6. The fact that some firms hire in bad economies only to fill short term project needs - then out the door they go.
That you are right, one has to know how to spot them and turn their offer down. But the OP is deep sh..... he's got nothing to lose.
But in general, no offense but you're just another boss, you're no different, you are in it to pave the road to your driveway, and ONLY your driveway.
RE: Ask for a raise
1. The more companies you work for, the better the experience, you get a new way of doing things, you diversify your expertise, etc.. not always. I had a good friend of mine resign from our firm and go to work for another larger firm in Chicago. No mentors, no variability in projects...he just popped in parameters into a computer program and did retaining walls over and OVER AND OVER again.
2. The risk of losing seniority at a new firm.
Common' man, seniority? this is not an airline company with unions. I was hired last once and was among the two remaining form 18 when downsized. sometimes you do lose "seniority" in that for some smaller firms, the last hired, first let-go policy stands. This is simply a truth in many firms and you just can't deny it by referring to unions.
3. The loss of vacation/PTO time off - or the lower rate given to new hires.
PTO? I never accept an offer unless I got 4 weeks vacation plus sick leave. You match my benefits if you want me to work for you-it always worked. Sometimes negotiating PTO doesn't fly - especially for younger engineers. Sometimes it does. But I was just pointing out that this is something that you should consider - not that it always applies.
4. The work environment here vs. there.
The work environmet already sucks where he is at? it always gets better when one changes jobs, - ALWAYS. Not always. Sometimes you can be surprised. I was in a firm I went to work for once. The former firm was great but, moving because I wanted to live in another city I found the new firm had some dysfunction within. Again - just something to consider.
5. The impression jumping around to different jobs gives when pasted on your resume.
That is easy, if my tenure is less than a year, I just scratch it form my resume, yeah I lied and I did not mention that company in my resume, so what?, what are you going to do about it? fire me? (don't do this in a governement application though), private sector? knock yourself out. Uh...OK. So when I call these past firms and verify their employment and there are 1 or 2 year gaps - what am I to think?
6. The fact that some firms hire in bad economies only to fill short term project needs - then out the door they go.
That you are right, one has to know how to spot them and turn their offer down. But the OP is deep sh..... he's got nothing to lose. Again, cry22 - I'm just pointing out things to consider - not granite carved truths.
But in general, no offense but you're just another boss, you're no different, you are in it to pave the road to your driveway, and ONLY your driveway.
Quite an absurd statement. You can paint with a broad brush all you like, but you don't know me and you don't know all the "bosses" out there.
As I said above - I was listing things that should be considered - none of which are invalid. Some might apply - some might not.
RE: Ask for a raise
I feel bad for you, and also bad for anyone you work for. If I were JAE, I'd feel pretty insulted that you basically called him a liar. If I were your employer, I'd want you off my team ASAP, lest your misconception that all bosses are only interested in keeping their team members under their thumb to take a bigger and bigger piece of the profits spread to other team members.
Have you given full and complete thought to what it actually COSTS to employ someone? Have you given full and complete thought to what it actually COSTS to give someone a salary raise? In my state, there are at least a half-dozen extra costs that must be accounted for. For every dollar in salary increase, an employer can expect an increase in these other costs of employment that you as an employee never see.
Suppose all other costs of running the business remain constant: utilities, mortgages/leases, raw materials, consumables, taxes, etc. Also suppose that the company does not raise its prices, and that sales volume and profits are equivalent to that of last year. Where does the money come from to give you a raise?
Dcceey,
Back to the original OP: how many employees in the company you work for? Is the ownership group large, or small? Are year end bonuses a part of your employment contract? Or are they non-contractual bonuses in the form of either profit sharing, or straight bonuses?
-TJ Orlowski
RE: Ask for a raise
"But in general, no offense but you're just another boss, you're no different, you are in it to pave the road to your driveway, and ONLY your driveway"
What a BS statement!!, The bigger companies in my area reduced staffing by 20-50% at the down turn, a few smaller companies have not taken a profit for 2-3 years and kept their staffing rates constant.
Not every boss is the same, not every company is the same, not every country is the same.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Ask for a raise
well, well, well, looks like I opened a can of worms here.
first, I am my own boss now, I used to be an employee not long ago and I am bringing up the employee side of things.
If you guys are hurt, well tough, only the truth hurts.
Don't give me that BS that you're in it for charity! that you care for your employees? you care for yourself first, your company second, and then if any compassion left, it passes on to the employees.
As for me as a boss, I am a one man shop for now, but if I were to grow, I know that I will look at my company bottom line before peoples' feelings. Sure, every employer would love to hire instead of firing, the more people they have, the more they make.
One last thing TJ - I do not see where I insulted JAE in my statements (I just sent in the cold hard facts from the other side of the fence).
As for JAE - you seem stuborn, you are wrong in all your answers, I lived the situations I described, it's not my imagination. ok, I grant you points for sticking to your opinions, I bet you stick by your designs as well.
RE: Ask for a raise
There is no truth in your statements, only opinions. You don't know us and you have never worked for me.
Never said we were in it for charity, but we are in it for the long haul, our company has an employee ownership offer and we look to retain staff over profits when things turn south for a few years. We have o a large % of staff heading into 10+ years of service, and generally only have a 5% change of staff in any one year, mostly in non technical staff.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Ask for a raise
From your arrogant (and ignorant frankly) tone, it is understandable that you are "your own boss." If you have any employees, do you view them in the same manner as you assert that those on this fora view their employees? Or are you a divinely inspired exception to the "rule" that all business owners are greedy profiteers, concerned with nothing but lining their pockets?
As rowingengineer stated, nobody is in business for the practice. At the core of every business is the idea that the company has a product or service they can deliver to market for a profit. I'd agree with the premise that owners or managers who are only concerned with company or division profits are short-sighted; and not employing a strategy for long term strength and growth. Corporate sharks who move from company to company, showing huge margins in their divisions, but not actually improving the portion of the company they're responsible for give other bosses/managers a bad name: mostly because they are the type that is most visible, and most often discussed.
On the other side of your cynical coin: if all bosses care nothing for their employees or their customers, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that all employees care nothing about their company, its customers, or their work? Aren't all employees only concerned with how big their paycheck is, how much non-wage compensation and PTO they get, and how they can extract the greatest possible amount of benefits from the company for doing the least possible amount of work?
Good luck on your endeavor as "your own boss." If and when you hire your first employee, remember what you've stated here, and recant it for your employee at his/her first performance review.
-TJ Orlowski
RE: Ask for a raise
First of all, it is clear that we do not agree BUT I reject the cynical stamp you're sticking on me, I am just blunt, may be too blunt, but cynical? I don't think so.
As for your last two statements:
1- About the workers caring: Some statistic I read somewhere - It is said that 70% of all workers do just enough to keep their job; 15% do much more that is expected of them (find those 15% and reward them); and 15% you could actually get rid of AND improve your company bottom line and moral (find these 15% and fire them).
2-If I ever have staff, I'll let you know when raise time comes in, If you don't hear from me, it means I went capput.
Keep smiling TJ, life is too short to exchange mean statements on the web. I bet you're one nice fella, I just happen not to agree with.
ROW
Good for you, your comapany and staff man, I am glad to read about your low turnover and your happy staff, really.
And YES, you're right, those are my Opinions, not scientific evidence, BUT my statements are facts from my experience, and that is proof enough to me.
How's the statistic of 15%/70%/15% doing at your company ROW?
Good on you guys.
RE: Ask for a raise
There are plenty of examples that show where care and compassion for the employee pays dividends.
Back in the early days of the industrial revolution when children worked in the mines or spent 16-17 hours a day tending looms in the cotton mills some employers did worry about their workers.
Some of the most notable were Quakers and in the Uk you can see the "villages" they built for their workers. Cadbury's Bournville, Lever's Port Sunlight and so on. Model villages by any standards.
In the days before there was a legally defined maximum working hours one of the big mill owners commissioned a time and motion study.
He found, for example, young boys walked 20 miles a day around the looms helping them keep running.
He made some drastic changes and was behind new government legislation on working hours.
One of the first things he did was reduce the working week for his workers to below the limit that was later set by government, and he made sure their take home pay remained the same.
He was prepared to suffer a drop in output just to make life better for his employees and because he had a conscience.
He was surprised to find that in fact, productivity increased.
There are many companies that find ways that energise their employees even if it is only with share schemes.
I've been in three of these and one of them paid the deposit on my house.
Giving employees a share in the company gives them a shared interest in the success of the company.
Yes, for many people work is a 9-5 thing with HR determined to treat workers as replaceable cogs with the same depreciation as machinery. But you can tell the difference.
I suspect that the cynical watch the bottom line attitude is a characteristic of many modern companies. These are the ones forever substituting acquisitions, take overs and mergers for real activity. These also appear to be successful. But when you add up the various constituent companies you don't find a leaner meaner more profitable company you find the ruins of lots of good companies where the collective sum is a fraction of the component parts and not more efficient and with zero employee moral in all.
I have worked for companies headed by the sort of boss who worries about the bottom line and nothing else, "paving his own driveway" and the devil take the rest.
These were some of the most odious despicable people I ever met.
I have also worked with some bad managers who nevertheless cared about the employees (they just shouldn't have been managers) and you not only forgave them their bad management you tried to steer them away from the worst decisions and made sure you did all you could so the company would survive them.
I have seen companies with bad management kept afloat through the years by he workforce because the workforce cared.
I have also seen just how little the employees cared when faced with cynical bottom line watching managers.
Sometimes this was an inherited family run business memory and sometimes they just did what they did to make sure the managers mistakes didn't do more damage than necessary.
I remember my Grandfather telling me about his time in the cavalry.
He said they had some good officers and good NCOs but they also had some really bad ones.
When the war came, the first day they left the trenches most of the bad officers and bad NCOs met their death and if anyone looked closely they would have found they were all hit in the back.
When times get tough the cynical manager will not only find he is on his own but he had better watch his back.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Ask for a raise
Key phrase here is "from my experience".
My own experience is different, and I abhor using absolutes where they are not true, which seems to be what you are doing.
I have worked for companies that put employees first; those employees recognized that the company had to show a profit {a portion of which did flow down to them) or they would no longer have the company to employ them.
I can't claim the business knowledge or experience of many here, but I have also lived through several examples of company "leaders" squeezing out every possible penny so that they can show a profit with no regard for the future solvency of the business, much less profitability (other than their own) and I know that not every company is run in that manner.
Those are facts from my experience.
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Technically, the glass is always full.
RE: Ask for a raise
George and Richard Cadbury
Lord Lever
Andrew Carnegie (the US philanthropist0
Richard Ostler
Robert Owen
Robert Peel (the same for whom police were nicknamed "Peelers".
Sir Titus Salt who created the Saltaire Model village for his workers.
I think the one I was trying to remember was John Wood (John Wood was in collaboration with Richard Ostler above) but I remember more than was in this link.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Ask for a raise
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Ask for a raise
You say that "all my answers are wrong".
I didn't really give any "answers" to the original post - all I essentially said (read my post above again why don't you?) - was that not all employers feed their employees a "line of crap".
I am an employer and I know I don't. I know a lot of other employers in engineering that also rely on and cherish many of their key employees. This is not just my "experience" but rather facts that are true.
The only other thing I posted was some SUGGESTIONS that if the OP wanted to jump ship there are things beyond just the salary that they should consider. So you are saying that it is WRONG to consider other things besides only salary?
You sound quite jaded in your own experiences about employers. Sorry to hear that.
RE: Ask for a raise
I am not saying that it is WRONG to consider other things besides Salary.
I got a $35,000 a year raise offer from an employer that knew me well and I rejected the offer (Yes, I am that good at what I do to command that kind of money. Ooops, I may sound arrogant to some people on this site), my reason was that I was in a large firm and I enjoyed the large projects I was working on, I enjoyed the team and lots of other things. Which is much better than moving to a mom and pop shop with the wife and son running the business.
No sir, money is not everything, but you certainly know that employers who care about their employees are few to go around and are an endangered specy.
RE: Ask for a raise
Just an observation, JAE, you may not intentionally feed your employees a line of crap, but I know if I saw my boss spending as much time on this site as you appear to, I would not be happy with management. I would expect my boss be out there trying to get new jobs so that my pay is competitive. If not, then I'd leave, which is directly what the OP is asking about.
RE: Ask for a raise
"as much time as you appear to". I think you don't have enough data to support such an assertion. You don't know my job conditions, hours worked, success in business, etc.
You do have a point if a business leader spent too much time on Eng-Tips and didn't do their job.
Good business leaders and owners realize that their employees well being and happiness are directly related to their own personal and business success. A poor leader, one who feeds out lines of crap and is solely self-interested, ends up hurting themselves and their company more than they realize.
The OP appears to be (appears mind you) under leadership that isn't aware of this. My only real point in this was to push back a little on the posts above that suggested that ALL owners, ALL managers are TOTALLY self-interested.
To make that assertion, logically, you'd have to know every manager in the universe, which you don't. To defend against such an assertion, you only need to know at least one manager who doesn't.
But you all have your own unique and varied opinions and experiences. I believe that the posts here are generally sincere, and reflect that there are numerous leaders out there who just don't get it. Just not all of them.
RE: Ask for a raise
Have you ever successfully run your own company?
JAE.
Have you ever successfully run your own company?
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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RE: Ask for a raise
JAE from what I can see is a great participant for the engtips community averaging about 10 posts a week, hardly enough to worry any staff members. Not to mention that these days that most marketing companies will encourage you to participate online to grow your business.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Ask for a raise
Hence the questions in my previous post although nI am pretty much sure of the answers.
Ready, aim, fire sure as hell beats ready, fire aim.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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for site rules
RE: Ask for a raise
But my own personal aspects don't really have much to do with this post in my view.
RE: Ask for a raise
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Ask for a raise
I just have an itchy finger I guess.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Ask for a raise
RE: Ask for a raise
RE: Ask for a raise
The funny way I like to remind myself of this was taught to me years ago. "A person should ALWAYS remember to NEVER say ALWAYS or NEVER."
It is trite, I agree. But it helps me remember to try and avoid over-generalization.
I can state from personal experience that some times I failed to remember that trite saying and I over-generalized in a negative manner. If I happened to be around someone who believed themselves to be unfairly included in that over-generalization, I regretted it. While I am not shy about confronting issues, I rarely seek to offend people.