Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
(OP)
Hello all,
I am an Industrial Designer, I design consumer products for a living. Sorry my questions may appear silly!
I am working on a small remote for car locks for a client. Users need to be able to program it (the same way one programs a 2nd set of car keys, by pushing buttons at correct intervals etc) to be able to unlock/lock their car's doors.
Questions:
Is this possible?
1)
Do I need to get specific information from car manufacturers (frequency, signals..) ?
2)
Are all car remotes working the same way? I don't believe I can program a GM key to open a Dodge vehicle, or am I wrong?
Thank you for your input.
I am an Industrial Designer, I design consumer products for a living. Sorry my questions may appear silly!
I am working on a small remote for car locks for a client. Users need to be able to program it (the same way one programs a 2nd set of car keys, by pushing buttons at correct intervals etc) to be able to unlock/lock their car's doors.
Questions:
Is this possible?
1)
Do I need to get specific information from car manufacturers (frequency, signals..) ?
2)
Are all car remotes working the same way? I don't believe I can program a GM key to open a Dodge vehicle, or am I wrong?
Thank you for your input.





RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
If so, the yes, you'll probably need to work VERY closely with the OEM. It's unlikely that any OEM would have frequency or codes similar to anyone else's since that would lead to interference.
TTFN

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RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
I understand that each car manufacturer uses a different frequency / codes.
Could user plug it into their PC and download the appropriate data? Or is this not something that can be simply programmed?
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
TTFN

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RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
You are correct, I know nothing about electrical engineering and electronic car keys. The product I am working on is not your typical electric keyfob.
A USB port, or other form of connection to a computer, could theoretically be added, if needed, to program the remote to work with a specific car.
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Thats how my logitech universal remote works.. They obviously don't want to fill up the memory with every command for every manufacturer out there so you connect it via a usb cable and select your devices then it uploads the necessary codes to the remote and away you go.
You've got a lot of work to do... Many have multiple security features built in/rfid chips,serialization,etc..nowadays. I hope you quoted high enough for this project...
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Thanks. Regarding the codes (for car locks) do you know if they're available, and how tough it would be to get them? As far as I know, thiefs would have no use for these codes, since it takes a 2nd key to program it.
MiketheEngineer:
Sorry, what do you mean? Your Ford came with a programmable key..?
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
If you're talking about the fobs for limiting access to starting a car, now you're getting into a more serious area, and I doubt you would see much cooperation from the major dealers.
Why is an industrial designer trying to handle the electrical and firmware design of a keyfob?
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
TTFN

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RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Thanks a lot, that's valuable information. Yes I am talking about the simple car lock remotes, NOT remote-starting fobs etc..
To answer your question, I am a bit different in that I don't necessarily complete set tasks/goals for clients. I usually set up entire product lines and brands for clients who give me relatively free rein.
itsmoked:
If feasible/reliable, this could be an excellent alternative. My product is quite small, however, so this receiver/chip would have to be small as well. Is this something Microchip manufactures?
I agree that using USB / cables is a bad idea. Forcing end-users to get involved leads to higher rates of rejection / refunds.
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Many keys today have an encrypted code that has to "match" the car before starting.
As a matter of fact many cars don't even have keys. If you have the "fob" and it can read it - it will start with the push of a button - usually called "START"
Maybe we can have the "fob" put in my wife's arm and she wouldn't loose her "keys!!!!!!
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
TTFN

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RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
It doesn't matter. The automakers' security considerations alone are the perfect show stopper. The End.
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Now about this "rolling code" do tell.. How's that work?
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
SDR technology is fine - if not oversold.
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
It's a linear shift register with a very long rollover period. The algorithm is designed that even if the fob and car get out of sequence (e.g., pressing the key fob while you're in the middle of the mall and your car is somewhere out in no man's land because it's Christmas and the frikkin' mall owner thinks it's okay to open up a slush lot 5 miles down the road and... wait, where was I?), they will resync within a few keypresses (I believe it's three). So, if a press doesn't open the door, the typical consumer will press a few more times anyway, and it eventually catches up.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
It seems like there are a number of variables. From what I understand from your comments, it would be impossible, or very difficult, to make out item compatible with ALL auto makers. We are thus considering working only with 1 or 2 large car manufacturers to begin with.
All we'd need is the same chip that goes into their keys, and the matching codes from the automaker, and voila.
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
So, then, what would be the point, since one can usually get replacement fobs directly from the OEMs?
TTFN

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RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
That is right, they could just go out and buy a new fob, but our product is different in a way I can't reveal here unfortunately.
By the way, does anyone know how much a replacement fob costs? I am trying to get an idea of costs for this feature.
Thanks
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
MB key, in addition to RF, also has Infrared LED for localized control of certain features. The e-key (for starting) uses coded 100kHz induction power and coded LED response (rolling codes etc.)
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
These key fobs only have buttons for LOCK/UNLOCK; HORN; TRUNK. I can't see how they would cost more than $6 to manufacture, considering the huge volumes in which they are made.
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
The Mercedes fobs may cost that much if you get them directly from Mercedes (and I'm sure most Merc owners do)... and this is what they charge to key the fob to your ECU. In the end, though, it's simply a sequence of button presses and such on the car and fob to key them to each other. Nothing special about the fob, AFAIK.
It sounds like you have a solution without a problem.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Concurred, the low-end fobs can't cost more than $10-$15 retail, which translates into a manufacturing cost of $2-$4 max. That is what I am looking for, no fancy functions.
Now the product I am working on is not a key fob, doesn't remotely resemble it, and has other functions. Locking/Unlocking car doors is just a secondary function. You've never seen anything like it:)
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Except the remote control side emits both RF and IR. And the RC fob is part of the rather unique electronic key (coded inductive power in, coded IR-LED out).
Various outfits offer aftermarket keys, but the reports vary if they actually work on all models/years.
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
The Mercedes key is far more advanced than what I'm looking for. Many cars are still manufactured with basic/low-end key fobs that just lock/unlock doors. I bet these don't cost more than a few $ to manufacture..
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Generic/ universal/ used units are far cheaper; the one I bought was the _exact_ correct part.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Are they really compatible with most cars? How does the user set them up to work with their car?
RE: Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com