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APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

(OP)
Hi all,
According to EN 1090-2 "...Technical Requirements for Steel structures", we have to qualify an operator in an automatic process (SAW - Submerged Arc Welding = 121 ).
Both Operator-qualification documents  EN 287-1  and EN 1418  are referenced in EN 1090-2.
In our opinion, the Operator qualification should be in accordance with EN 287-1 (which includes all criteria of EN 1418) .
Question : To face the requirements of EN 1090-2, our intention is to qualify our operators according to EN 287-1 (which is otherwise required for Pressure-Part Items) and to issue the appropriate certificates .
Is our approach correct or can a Third Party claim  an additional certificate ( EN 287-1  +  EN 1418 ) ?
Sincerely,
 

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

In my opinion, you should qualify these operators only in EN 287,
so I think that your approach is correct.

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

You have to qualify your Operator (SAW) to EN 1418.
You can not claim additional certificate.

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

Read the scope of EN 287-1, it states clearly how it is to be applied and what it is not applicable to.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

(OP)
Reply for MM Praktiker and SJones:
In my opinion, we should only qualify our operator according to EN 287-1 for the following reason :
Referring to EN 287-1 (2011 Edition):
a)Paragraph 1 Scope last paragraph :
"Fully mechanized and automated welding processes" are to be qualified according to EN 1418 ;
b)Paragraph 4.2 Definition of welding processes :
121 = Submerged Arc Welding with solid wire electrode [ PARTLY MECHANIZED ]
Conclusion : As process 121 is considered as "PARTLY mechanized" it should be qualified by en 287-1 (and not by EN-1418).
Can you please confirm my approach ?
 

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

Why is Submerged Arc Welding considered as "partly mechanized"?
I'm asking this because in my company, when doing qualification for welding operator of SAW, we use EN 1418. This qualification is approved by our NoBo.
As far as I know, partly mechanized meaning that only the wire feed is done by machine, the rest done by welder. As in our process (SAW), all of the mechanism is done by machine. The task of operator is just setting the machine, setting welding parameter, push a button...and go.

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

(OP)
Hello Aburafdi,
1) In my opinion, EN 1418 is not precise enough and lend to confusion. As mentioned in my previous intervention 23rd January [b] = EN 287-1 paragraph 4.2 process 121 is defined as "PARTLY MECHANIZED" that means 121 process should not be mentioned at all in EN 1418...
2) Furthermore 121 process requires that several parameters need to be followed during welding and the operator does more than "pushing a button". That is why in this case we have a "WELDER's job" instead of an operator's job .
 

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

If Im correct, EN 1418 (we use it for orbital welding) refers to EN 287, or at least, can to some extent use the rules outlined in 287 to interpret the requirements 1418 better.
In agreement with the noBo, I believe we managed to re-qualify our 1418-welders by using a part of the 287 rules, since 1418 slightly lacks in requirements for re-qualification.

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

(OP)
Answer for XL83NL.
With your NoBo you have taken a good approach to fulfill a lack of precision from EN 1418 .
In my opinion a better solution would be to fusion both documents EN 287-1 with EN 1418...
 

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

@ ATsampalas: with respect to re-qualification, for the half year extention period, we've used the rules EN 287 by internally signing
off that the welder involved 'did his job' on e.g. some welding on a project job, so to keep him qualified for the next year.
this signing off was done by the welding coordinator, who's internally authorized for that.
in this way, we dont have to get a NoBo each half year for re-qualification. we only use the NoBo for the big 2-yearly extention.

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

(OP)
Answer for XL83NL
Your approach is correct and corresponds to the requirements of EN 287-1 (Edition 2011) :
a) Confirmation of the validity > see paragraph 9.2
b) Prolongation of qualification (every 2 years) > see paragraph 9.3

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

Hello ATsampalas,
It's so interesting to discuss about term "partly" and "fully" mechanized (for SAW).
I found that there are two possibilities for SAW: by full mechanized (with all main operation by machine: this is the most popular use) and by hand-held gun (I believe this is partly mechanized). There is a welding equipment manufacturer who produce this type of gun.
In regard of EN287-1 : IMHO it's applicable only for partly mechanized (with hand-held gun);  while for SAW with fully mechanized, 1418 applies.

RE: APROVAL TESTING OF WELDING OPERATORS : EN 287-1 or EN 1418 ?

Indeed, that is confirmed by the definition of welder: person who holds and manipulates the electrode holder, welding torch or blowpipe by hand.

Therefore, the definition of submerged arc welding as [PARTLY MECHANISED] would only apply to a welder and not a welding operator.

Apologies to ATsampalas as it was quoted as an 'automatic process' which means that the definition of welding operator in EN 1418 would apply.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
 

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