contract and payment question
contract and payment question
(OP)
ok folks, Merry Christmas!
I have a client for whom I did an investigation and wrote a report on the structural status of a house. He and I talked extensively before meeting about the two levels of investigation I could do - one just telling him general problems and recommendations with no design or calcs or specifics, and a level up where I would design specific fixes for what I found. He insisted that the first report would be enough. At the house, he was also adamant that he and his builder buddy could handle the specifics - he just wanted suggestions from me.
Fast forward to his response to my report, where he's all mad that I didn't give him specific repair instructions and calcs. I reminded him of our conversations about what the report he was buying would get him, and that he signed the contract for the more general report, but he said the report is useless to him and now, he doesn't want to pay me what his signed contract agreed to. He calls it all a misunderstanding and miscommunication and has asked me to charge him "what I feel is fair".
I'm considering two sides - charging him half fee, because I don't like having a grumpy customer, or charging him full fee because we did talk about exactly how much detail would be in the report, and he did sign the contract.
How much would you charge him? Full or half? Keep in mind the overall fee is under $500, that I'm not likely to have him as a client again anyway (my projects tend to be one-shot deals), but that he has a builder friend who recommended me and could potentially pass me work, and that my company is relatively new.
*whew* Thanks!
I have a client for whom I did an investigation and wrote a report on the structural status of a house. He and I talked extensively before meeting about the two levels of investigation I could do - one just telling him general problems and recommendations with no design or calcs or specifics, and a level up where I would design specific fixes for what I found. He insisted that the first report would be enough. At the house, he was also adamant that he and his builder buddy could handle the specifics - he just wanted suggestions from me.
Fast forward to his response to my report, where he's all mad that I didn't give him specific repair instructions and calcs. I reminded him of our conversations about what the report he was buying would get him, and that he signed the contract for the more general report, but he said the report is useless to him and now, he doesn't want to pay me what his signed contract agreed to. He calls it all a misunderstanding and miscommunication and has asked me to charge him "what I feel is fair".
I'm considering two sides - charging him half fee, because I don't like having a grumpy customer, or charging him full fee because we did talk about exactly how much detail would be in the report, and he did sign the contract.
How much would you charge him? Full or half? Keep in mind the overall fee is under $500, that I'm not likely to have him as a client again anyway (my projects tend to be one-shot deals), but that he has a builder friend who recommended me and could potentially pass me work, and that my company is relatively new.
*whew* Thanks!





RE: contract and payment question
Is this a genuine mis-understanding, or is this guy stringing you on?
If you feel the miscomunication is genuine, give him a break.
If you feel that he is shining you on, charge him full price and say goodbye.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: contract and payment question
The builder is very unlikely to care either way.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"A safe structure will be the one whose weakest link is never overloaded by the greatest force to which the structure is subjected" Petroski 1992
RE: contract and payment question
Charge him full price. If your proposal was clear as to your scope of services, he signed it and you did the work...charge for it as contracted.
He will take your work to some other engineer and they will then use your suggestions for a quick, cheap design fix...and he'll probably try to stiff them too.
If you fold, that will probably hurt your work in the future more than standing firm. Your contractor referral might refer more work to you, but will tell his referral to beat you down on price.
You are already charging what should be a minimum charge for your services ($500).
This guy is either a developer or he flips houses.
RE: contract and payment question
David
RE: contract and payment question
Absolutely correct. On the other hand...
If you DID NOT put it explicitly in writing what you would deliver, AND his obligations to pay for services rendered, then shame on you. $500 is chump change. Charge what you would feel comfortable with (if anything), snip this off and walk away gracefully. And never work with this guy again. Consider this as a cheap learning experience in your new venture. Won't be the last time.
Hint: I've learned over the years to add $500 to my contract fees just for the work of writing a good proposal that protects both me and my clients. It's a very effective filter for those folks like your client.
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: contract and payment question
RE: contract and payment question
RE: contract and payment question
RE: contract and payment question
RE: contract and payment question
This is my first experience with this, and honestly, I've worked so hard to get where I am and it has me quite stressed that this guy is going around smearing the hard work I do.
* deep breaths * What to do?
RE: contract and payment question
Respond that you were far more "shocked and saddened" by his very obvious ploy of reneging on the contract; that you will pursue through Small Claims court if necessary; that you have sought seek legal advice regarding his slandering your name.
RE: contract and payment question
RE: contract and payment question
Be careful about sending a letter threatening legal action thru a small claims court. If you don't follow thru, he can turn around and sue you for violation of his rights under the federal debt collection practices and you might end up owing him $1,000 per violation plus attorney's fees.
RE: contract and payment question
Return his fee, and tell him he's better off with someone else. The second he says to another engineer that you returned his fee, that other engineer is going to think twice about getting involved. I know I would. I've turned away more than one person who's said "yeah I had an engineer but it didn't work out." (And out of professional courtesy, I always, always, always call the engineer I'm replacing.)
RE: contract and payment question
The problem is that if it gets around that the local girl engineer is a pushover, then I'm going to have to deal with this crap all the time.
And from now on, I'll get a check in hand before I start if I've never worked for them before.
* grrrr *
RE: contract and payment question
She's an individual/business trying to agreed upon costs, not a collection agency.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: contract and payment question
Go for it and good luck.
As for your contract terms...you might want to take a look at them with regard to mediation as a first resort.
In general, if you sue someone in civil court, a judge is likely to order mediation anyway. The threat of litigation packs a bigger punch than the threat of mediation.
If mediation is your first resort, you might be waiting a while to get mediation scheduled or forced. If you want it as a first resort, then put a time-certain limit on when it will occur. For instance, you might put a clause that requires payment in 30 days. If not paid in 30 days, the client must state in writing his objection to the charges in 5 days or waive his right to mediation. If the client makes written objection, then mediation shall occur within 30 days of the due date of the bill...this way it doesn't drag on.
Check with your lawyer, of course.
RE: contract and payment question
I had a customer string me on, then squabble in this manner.
When the judge said to the customer " he did the work, pay the man" the guy paid me with a bad check then left the country.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: contract and payment question
Regarding reputation, YOU actually have the advantage here. All you have to do is casually mention that you choose not to work with that person. Ever again. When the other Folks-Who-May-Get-Screwed-By-That-Guy ask "why?", simply respond that there was a payment dispute and you didn't get paid. That will be the end of that guy's business venture. He'll have to relocate to Mars to get away from his reputation as a non-paying deadbeat.
Proof: I did a substantial amount of robot programming for some hack, who refused to pay his final bill. Left me short about $1500. Later, he stopped coming to me and went to the major robot companies directly. They called me to do work for THEM, which they were doing for HIM, because those robot salesmen believed his cockamamie story about selling dozens of robots. I told them all the story, without slander or libel, and that I refused to do work directly for him since he didn't pay his bill. The guy was blackballed in the industry immediately, his business scheme imploded, and he is now probably flipping burgers.
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: contract and payment question
What's got me so frustrated in this is his insinuations that I'm being unethical. I would never do that - not morally, and besides, I've worked WAY too hard to get where I am to throw it all away.
RE: contract and payment question
But having been involved in a few legal matters I can tell you they are all money losers. Having a great lawyer can help you sleep at night but in the end you will be poorer. I would just move on.
Regards
StoneCold
RE: contract and payment question
RE: contract and payment question
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"A safe structure will be the one whose weakest link is never overloaded by the greatest force to which the structure is subjected" Petroski 1992
RE: contract and payment question
V
RE: contract and payment question
Either we do it full out or not at all!!! Just gives rise to problems in the future.
Like - "Your original sketch only showed this and I bid it that way". Well we had not completed all the calcs and found some areas that needed beefing up, etc., etc.
If you offer verbal advice - do it for free. If he wants a report - full price. I too learned the hard way.
RE: contract and payment question
If this is the only time this happens to you... you're lucky.
V
RE: contract and payment question
The guy you're dealing with knows which buttons to push. He knows that an engineer's license and reputation are paramount...so what does he want to attack?...the things we all fear will hurt our careers the most.
Don't fold. Take him to small claims court. Tell him in no uncertain terms that if he says anything to anyone in an attempt to impune your reputation that he will next hear from your attorney (if you don't have one engaged, just don't let him know).
File a lien on his property for the services you provided. In NC you have the right as a Design Professional to file such a lien on real property. See North Carolina statute, Gen. Stat. §44A-12.
Good luck.
RE: contract and payment question
By the time you file the paperwork and spend a day in court - you have better things to do. If it's $5,0000 - that's another story - file against him.
But remember one thing - you might win in small claims court - you probably will. But getting paid is another thing. Sure, the court says pay this guy (you) but they DO NOT enforce it. It is up to you to collect and that can be very hard and frustrating.
Yeah- I won once - still never got paid!!!
RE: contract and payment question
for jobs this small, demand a retainer up front.
turn the bill over to collection agency and forget about it.
RE: contract and payment question
I can attest to what Ron just said, had the same thing happen as I mentioned before.
"" But remember one thing - you might win in small claims court - you probably will. But getting paid is another thing. Sure, the court says pay this guy (you) but they DO NOT enforce it. It is up to you to collect and that can be very hard and frustrating.
Yeah- I won once - still never got paid!!!""
There appears to be a particular type of low life,( I will not justify the word businessman on these bottom feeders.) who seems to prey on people just starting up in business, or who are struggling financially. They dangle what seems to be a good deal for a job, then when it comes time to pay, they either try to weaselword their way out, or nitpick the work to avoid paying.
The other type to watch out for, is the guy who pays cash on the barrelhead and indicates money is no problem, until credit is established. Then takes as much work as possible before dissapearing without paying.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: contract and payment question
Then I get a formal note from the court that essentially said "Party xyz has siezed the office furniture of your ex employer in order to enforce a judgement he has against your ex employer. Ex employer has paid off this judgement. o you wish this siezure to be maintained on your behalf.?? My official response was " Damn Right I do"
I guess its difficult to carry on business with a legal notice affixed to the front door of your business stating " All office furniture within this office has been siezed by the sherriff for non payment of a legal judgement. Anyone removing this furniture or this notice is in contempt of court"
I got my money about 10 days later. I had a lot of fun throughout the entire process and learnt an awefull lot that will be usefull the next time I'm owed money
RE: contract and payment question
Charge him what you said you'd charge him and be more clear in your next letter contract.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: contract and payment question
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: contract and payment question
Or we don't start the job before getting money. As you are new, you will slowly see people out there have a reputation for continuing to have projects without paying properly and because so many people are struggling other little companies will take the work on.
Like I tell everyone, we are not busy enough, but we are busy enough to still turn jobs away right now.
Have you asked the client why they signed the contract if they weren't intending to pay upon the agreed work?
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering
http://bwengr.com
RE: contract and payment question
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com