WTC Bldg #7
WTC Bldg #7
(OP)
I was somewhat taken aback by watching this video posted on another forum. What is the general opinion of structural engineers on the theory of a "controlled demolition" of this building?
BA
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RE: WTC Bldg #7
I'm not ready to believe a conspiracy theory, however. There are several probable explanations for this (not counting the conspiracy theories)...who knows what really happened.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
There are a lot of unanswered questions here. There are a lot of crazy ideas that you will see, but there are very good scientifically based reasons for doubt of the government explanation, and not only for Building 7. Just use your common sense as a structural engineer.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: WTC Bldg #7
Now on the other hand, I'm still not convinced Oswald was a lone gunman. I used to think Gerald Ford was going to make a statement about this before he died, being that he was the last surviving member of the Warren Commission.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
I have yet to see a single good scientifically based reason for doubt. The conspiracy theorists claims invariably take any evidence that appears to support their claim as being absolutely correct and indisputable, and simply ignore any evidence that does not support their claims, even when it comes from someone who they have just said can be believed without question.
If WTC7 collapsed through the mechanism given in the official investigation, why wouldn't it look like a controlled demolition?
Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
http://newtonexcelbach.wordpress.com/
RE: WTC Bldg #7
However, I guess my main question, of many, is "how do you get what looks like a controlled demolition failure from what appears to be an unsymmetrically placed fire/demolition event causing the failure?" It just does not add up to me.
So, I still have a lot of questions...
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: WTC Bldg #7
RE: WTC Bldg #7
http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
RE: WTC Bldg #7
The kicker for me is that in controlled demo, they don't fire all the charges at once, they fire the inner ones first to make sure that the debris falls inward.
Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
I have wrestled with the same concerns. However, not knowing all the facts to come to an irrefutable conclusion, which we never really will as Ron mentioned, the possibility still remains that it could be done. I'm not saying that it was, only that with the proper control and set of circumstances, it could have been done.
And I do concur with your final sentence in that it was obvious to me from the video that the interior columns failed first in Building 7. Coincidence or planned? Who knows. It's just a suspicious occurrence.
It might be possible for one building to fail, looking like a controlled demo. The problem I have is all three falling in their respective footprints. What is the likelihood of that?
Just some thoughts to ponder. I will be quiet now.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: WTC Bldg #7
Regards,
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RE: WTC Bldg #7
I do NOT think this was controlled demolition.
None of the shots are showing the other face of the building, the face that sustained most of the damage. There were confirmed reports of blazing fire on the lower floors by the firefighters who didn't have enough water pressure to fight. You can see the fires in one or two of the clips. If you look carefully at the top penthouse, you can see the damaged portion of the building going first.
This building lost its core at the base from out of control fires that burned for hours.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
And, what's the point of taking down WTC7? If the government was involved in taking down WTC1 and WTC2 and was good enough to make that happen on schedule with the plane impacts, then why the ineptitude in taking down WTC7?
Conspiracy theorists are great at claiming nefarious and extraordinary secrecy and expertise on the one hand, yet, these same perpetrators are so inept at leaving so much evidence to the contrary. Again, either they're good, or they're not. If they're that good, then there should be no evidence to the contrary; there should be no smoking thermite guns.
The video claims that signs of thermitic reactions were eseentially EVERYWHERE their witnesses looked. Why? It takse very little in the way of exposives to do a controlled demo. Likewise, the amount of thermite required to do the same should be equally small, and being buried in the bottom of the rubble, there should be very little evidence of thermite. If there's such massive signs of thermite, then the conspirators were both inept, stupid, and incompetent. Yet, they managed to get away with it?
As with the moon conspiracy theorists, they postulate a massive conspiracy required to pull it off, yet, they likewise postulate sophomoric "errors" that reveal to the theorists that it was a plot.
TTFN
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RE: WTC Bldg #7
RE: WTC Bldg #7
Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
It is the duty of citizens to watch on their governments, democratic or not, for if of course the general intent of governments may be overally sounder for the many, it can be exterminating for some, ane everyone can be one of such "some".
The pressure to know the truth of the matters that affect the general public must be always be kept ongoing, and it is extremely unfortunate that most of the more enabled to so provide remain too silent at critical times.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
Then again the planes had just taken off and they were still loaded with the con-trail mind control chemicals. and who knows how hot that stuff burns!
RE: WTC Bldg #7
How would the conversation go:
Let's see- we are over budget during construction, what can we cut? Perhaps the explosive charges on the columns? No, we better keep that one in case we need to blow up the building in 25 years.
I had some conspiracy theories of my own from other events in the past. My brother-in-law set me straight when he pointed out that for these conspiracy theories to work, we had to assume that the government was competent and could keep a secret. After realizing the ludicracy of that- I gave up on conspiracy theories.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
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RE: WTC Bldg #7
What I heard was that the impact of the planes knocked the fire protection off enough of the structural steel for the fire to weaken that section of the building.
As for conspiracy theories, I think the government/media ability to spin the information, about something this big that others did, for their own benefit is the most they could do.
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
Of course proof is another thing, and nor it is my task nor my intent to assert anything beyond my means of proof, but considering the options may help in finding the truth when one is searching for it.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
Most of the jet fuel was burned in the large fire ball explosions that occured shortly after impact. The remaining fuel (thousands of gallons) was released into the core of the building and substructure through the elevator and stair shafts. The investigation found that the impact of the large 747 airplanes, knocked off much of the fire proofing. This greatly reduced the fire rating. At the time of design, Mr Robertson had considered the impact of a Boeing 707, the largest aircraft in production. This additional consideration was made after a small aircraft hit the Empire State Building. However, this consideration had little impact on the design due to the high wind forces already considered on New York highrises. The actual impact speed was nearly 1.5x greater than the estimates of the 707. There was also no specification for the adhesion of fireproofing to the structural steel. The primary consideration was to provided adequate thickness for the necessary fire rating. In addition to the highrise structures there is nearly 7 stories of underground structure. Built before significant use of rebar, many of these concrete walls are more than 7 feet thick. This made these levels a furnace. During a visit in October 2001, they were still removing red hot sections of steel structure from these sublevels.
Building 7 did not suffer a direct impact, but was simply allowed to burn.
WTC 7 was rebuilt relatively quickly after the collapse. The new structure has studs on all surfaces of the structural columns to provide additional surface area for the fire proofing. The structure is also designed for significant impact forces and progressive collapse. After the collapses it was determined that redistribution of forces in other damaged buildings exceeded the performance expectations. However, nearly every girder to column connection in WTC 7 is designed for potential of lost columns and significant load redistribution.
My point is... We work with the data available at the time. There is no conspiracy in these collapses. We waste resources looking for improbable solutions. Although not the intent of the designers, the designs performed amazingly in their failure. The additional devastation would have grown exponentially had any of these structures fallen laterally, in the direction of other structures or survivors. Sometimes these things require a little luck or devine intervention. But searching for a conspiracy is simply a waste. This energy would be better spent improving our designs and understanding how to better control our structures in a disaster.
http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
RE: WTC Bldg #7
TTFN
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RE: WTC Bldg #7
RE: WTC Bldg #7
How true.
Having Ed Asner as the narrator should have been the first sign that this is bogus.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
RE: WTC Bldg #7
Let's not forget the involvement of Pierre Salinger in the TWA Flight 800 conspiracy theory. Ed Asner only played a reporter. Salinger was an actual reporter, and someone steeped in government operation.
Interestingly, the video never compares WTC1's and 2's collapses, which, to me, seemed eerily like intentional demos as well.
TTFN
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RE: WTC Bldg #7
@ishvaaag, This also would have been highly visible to the many construction workers.
Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
IRStuff - it sounds like you're changing your position?
There was an analysis of the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 performed by a prominent SE firm for the leaseholder (Silverstein). They filed a lawsuit against their insurer. The insurer said the collapse was one incident whereas Silverstein said it was two discrete incidents, hence twice the settlement. Silverstein won the case based upon the analysis.
Silverstein's engineers had to demonstrate how the impact of the planes resulted in collapse. If it were CD it would have been discovered in court.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
RE: WTC Bldg #7
As for explosives built-in? Right, 30-yr old explosives working to spec? And wired up to explode for 30 years? Who in their right, or wrong, mind would even contemplate leaving live explosives in a building? No worries about accidential detonations? No worries about even finding the detonator after 30 yrs? Umptydump people keeping the secret for 30 yrs?
TTFN
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RE: WTC Bldg #7
RE: WTC Bldg #7
http://www
BA
RE: WTC Bldg #7
RE: WTC Bldg #7
TTFN
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RE: WTC Bldg #7
RE: WTC Bldg #7
Brad
RE: WTC Bldg #7
BA
RE: WTC Bldg #7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
RE: WTC Bldg #7
I'm always ready to pile on the blame on the artists, but in this case wouldn't the bolded part suggest it was the interior designers whose 'vision' was supreme and unalterable?
Someone get the smelling salts for Brad805, quick...
Lesson Learned: Engineers, know your place!
RE: WTC Bldg #7
RE: WTC Bldg #7
Pshaw...get with the times daddio!
Mini-nukes in the basement is where it's at. Or, as in another theory, conventional explosives were used to supplement the destruction, because you know those darn mini-nukes just didn't have enough oomph on their own.
Sometimes if you didn't laugh you'd cry.
RE: WTC Bldg #7
There are many unknowns and unbelievable things en 9/11 matters -and not only in the conspiracy side- at least from the public viewpoint, and there are lots of people not wanting such things well established and known.
I have no particular interest in such established truths whatever their final clarity and stance, I have clear what of political activities can be expected as pertaining to truth, since interest overrides it every time they deem necessary so.
But to make gullible of those that are not, even within their imperfect knowledge, does not seem to me precisely a convenient proposition from a rational viewpoint.
RE: WTC Bldg #7