I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
(OP)
I have designed and received a patent for a ZERO FLOAT VALVE for the internal combustion engine. I noticed that at two key points in its operation that it could actually capture lost energy during the exhaust stroke of the engine. I designed this for use in the commercial industry, works for cars also.
Does anyone know of any other design that can do this or is this a first?
I also like to know if anyone has ever built an engine using a zero float valve system to the same specifications as a poppet valve engine. I like to know what the difference in horse power was.
Regards
Lenny123
Does anyone know of any other design that can do this or is this a first?
I also like to know if anyone has ever built an engine using a zero float valve system to the same specifications as a poppet valve engine. I like to know what the difference in horse power was.
Regards
Lenny123





RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
At least reveal the patent number, so we might have a clue what you're talking about.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Now why didn't I think of that?!
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
- of interest to them
- conflict with pre-existing patents they own or with prior public domain innovations
Of course, if no one objects it is often because no one cares. This is the case with many inventions which are of the "so what?" variety. e.g. as seen on Dragon's Den etc.What is often more interesting are the inventions that are very definitely in the "Gee, that's interesting and there is money in it for someone!" and that the original inventor then does nothing with. e.g. zip fasteners.
I guess the best we can say of the US patents department is that they've gotta eat too.
It seems to me that not only are many US patents issued without the trouble to see if they are already patented it (The US patents department obviously does rely on interested parties doing their work for them) but how badly written they are. But then, in the US, it is not uncommon for US patent attorneys to do much of their work on a "no win no fee" basis i.e. they take a share of the profits, if any, rather than a flat fee.
On the other hand the Japanese are very adept at writing patents that cover not just the innovation itself, and in great detail, but also so as to cover any possible collateral developments that may come along in the future.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
TTFN
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Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
I know all about turbos that increase HP, my design is built in.
No need for all those extra costing parts.
I don't have a patent number yet, it was just approved. 2 to 4 weeks I was told is when I'll get one.
I don't need to read the FAQ.
Regards
Lenny
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
PJGD
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Heres one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXIdOTkJhEY
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
The Desmo principle has been used on looms since the early days of the industrial revolution.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
I think the patent period is more like 20 years.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
That's exactly what a desmodromic valve does - it does not require springs to return the valve to the closed position (nominally).
Unfortunately, reality in the form of necessary clearances in the mechanism to avoid binding (especially when thermal expansion when the engine is running is considered), and production tolerances, means that the mechanism can only drive the valve to a fraction of a millimeter away from being closed. That is not good enough for starting and idling, and that is the ONLY reason for the small springs used in a Ducati desnodromic system - to take up the clearance and drive the valve all the way shut during cranking, as someone already mentioned.
Assuming that we are still talking about poppet-type valves here, I find it difficult to imagine ANY mechanical system for closing the valves that is not going to be subject to necessary clearances the same way that the Ducati system is.
In any case, in many ways the desmodromic system is an answer to a question that few people are asking. All of Ducati's competitors in World Superbike use valve springs, and the Ducati doesn't seem to have any overwhelming performance advantage because of its desmodromic system. In MotoGP and Formula 1 cars, where steel valve springs aren't good enough, they use pneumatic valve springs, and those are a whole lot simpler and lighter than any desmo system I've ever seen. In production cars, the trend nowadays is towards variable valve timing and lift systems. The variable timing bit is as possible with desmo as it is with valve springs, but variable lift - or even two-step lift like Honda VTEC - would present some interesting design challenges.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
I am not sure the design is such a problem as is the extreme precision and synchronisation required in manufacture and maintenance.
I have always thought the tappet clearance springs could be replaced by a hydraulic device built into a closing cam follower.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
A team of good automotive engineers would run away from this concept....
PJGD
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
As for any friction problems oil solves that problem. This sliding valve does not enter the cylinder so it can be as large as needed, so as well the open ports. There are now materials that can be made that are self lubricating. It's just a question of putting together the right design that works. My design is just a basic one that explains how it functions . This works for the USPTO. The changing part is coming up with the right design for the compression seals 156 in my drawing. The outside diameter of the valve guide could be smaller than the compression seals 156 inside diameter avoiding friction, up to a point. The valve guide could be then tapered at the fully closed position. The compression seals would ride up this taper creating a perfect seal. The inside of the compression seals 156 can be tapered as well to match the taper on the valve guide. During compression the pressure would force the compression seals 156 down and around the valve guide.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
I don't know, rotary and sleeve valves always had a strange appeal for me- years ago I've even dabbled with designing a variable timing rotary valve for two strokes (until someone 'in the know' showed me ridiculousness of the design and burst my soap bubble).
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Why does everyone with a stupid idea think they are as smart as Steve Jobs.
As far as I know, Steve Jobs never even tried to suggest a sleeve valve was a good thing for sealing exhaust gas in an Otto cycle IC piston engine.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
* would I say a bit too much if I remarked that poppet valve on the intake would be used as well?
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Disc and reed valves have been used on 2 strokes to supplement piston port, but they have always been partly protected by the piston port valve.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
And in the same sentence, "There are now materials that can be made that are self lubricating."
so.....you don't need any oil anyway, No "problem" to solve!
and this gem, "It's just a question of putting together the right design that works."
well, duhhhh!
Going to Mars is just a question of building a spacecraft.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
If you only wanted positive feedback, you should have specified.
Good job securing the patent. It's clear in your word file attachment that YOU have no interest in actually making it work, so why didn't you say "here's an interesting patent" and leave it at that?
Your first mistake is claiming it as a realistic, manufacturable design, and then (vaguely) trying to argue the case. So my positive feedback is be aware of the line between what you've established (the concept) and what you have not (everything else.)
Second mistake is making that argument here...
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
I see the drawing and I see the "wrist-pin" at the left that is apparently meant to connect to something driven from the engine. What? How?
I see the ports in the inner piece and the outer piece. What's connected to the combustion space and what's connected to the intake/exhaust manifolds? If it works the way I think it does, that is a huuuuuuge mechanism for a relatively small flow area. And the flow area has a convoluted path, if it is what I think it is. The area of the ports in those walls is larger than the area of the inlet/outlet at the left of the drawing by far - the inlet/outlet passage will be the restriction point.
If you propose to use this as an exhaust valve, how do you propose to deal with thermal expansion? How do you propose to deal with necessary mechanical clearances and how these change with thermal expansion? Poppet valves shut against their seat with (essentially) no clearance and no leakage. If you set the valve clearance wrongly on a normal engine so that the exhaust valve is held 0.001" open rather than allowing it to shut fully, generally the engine won't start.
I'm not talking about the piston-ring-seal-gizmo between the reciprocating piece and its bore. I'm talking about the clearance between that reciprocating piece and the ports that it appears to be blocking and unblocking.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Getting a patent is quite an accomplishment. I certainly have never done so myself.
However, here are some who have done so:
http://www.patentlyabsurd.org.uk/internat.html
Of those presented, here is a particular favorite on mine, variations of which have indeed reached the marketplace:
h
htt
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
You can't really go by the size of the ports in that drawing. It's simply meant to explain how the flow of gases flow when working with a patent. It's a utility patent not a design patent. In the real world the ports would be much larger.
How it works.
The valve guide 104 would be stationary and the valve body 106 would slide over the valve guide 104 creating a tight seal in the fully closed position. Your right about the pin 170 it would be connected to a driving force such as a cam, much the same way as a connecting rod is to a piston.
The friction problem you mention.
Your question:
If you propose to use this as an exhaust valve, how do you propose to deal with thermal expansion? How do you propose to deal with necessary mechanical clearances and how these change with thermal expansion? Poppet valves shut against their seat with (essentially) no clearance and no leakage. If you set the valve clearance wrongly on a normal engine so that the exhaust valve is held 0.001" open rather than allowing it to shut fully, generally the engine won't start.
My response:
The outside diameter of the valve body 106 could be cut down up to the point where the compression seals 158 are to avoid friction with the sleeve 102 as the valve reciprocates to and fro. The compression rings 158 would be lubricated by the engine oil. Now the inside cavity 134 of the valve body 106 could be drilled out larger than the outside diameter of the valve guide 104 to avoid friction as well. The only point of contact or friction would be at the face 116 to 166 of the valve body 106. This is the area that holds the compression seals 156 and retaining ring 154.
Your questions:
I see the ports in the inner piece and the outer piece. What's connected to the combustion space and what's connected to the intake/exhaust manifolds? If it works the way I think it does, that is a huuuuuuge mechanism for a relatively small flow area. And the flow area has a convoluted path, if it is what I think it is. The area of the ports in those walls is larger than the area of the inlet/outlet at the left of the drawing by far - the inlet/outlet passage will be the restriction point.
My response:
Open port 118 in the valve guide 104 matches up with the open port 112 in the sleeve 102. The open port 112 in the sleeve 102 is connected to the combustion chamber. The valve body 106 slides over valve guide 104 inside the sleeve 102 blocking the flow of gases when closed and allows the flow of gases when opened.
Keep in mind that the size of the either intake or exhaust valve and ports can be as large as needed to accommodate the flow of gases. The valves do not enter the combustion chamber at all. This system can be over head configuration or a side valve configuration. Side valves were used in the 1920's 30's on some engines.
Yes the flow of gases would have to make a few turns to escape but that's the price of this design.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Oh wait! I'm one of those! I'll take a shot!
1. Low volumetric efficiency
2. Overheating
All BS aside, I feel you won't be able to shed the heat this thing is going to be exposed to, if used as an exhaust valve.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Compression and combustion gases filtering through all of the crevice volumes in that apparatus would lead to high heat losses and high unburned-fuel emissions.
At the same time, given the well-proven suitability of poppet valves in this application, all I see with this apparatus are disadvantages. I see no benefit to it relative to a normal cam and poppet valve arrangement.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Not necessarily, We could re ignite them (the gases)in a power recovery turbine, coupled to the crankshaft through a viscous fluid coupling.
or, the power recovery turbine might be used to charge a bank of batteries, thus qualifying for green energy grants.
See, "It's just a question of putting together the right design that works."
If I just had Tony Stark's machine shop, I'd show you guys!
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Assemble an engine without piston rings. Turn it over with a tension wrench set to just turn the engine without clicking or whatever it is yours does at a set tension. Now do a compression test.
Now do it again with the rings installed. Note friction by change in tension wrench settings required to turn it without clicking and new compression.
Note the relationship between friction and seal even at constant room temperature without aggressive, dirty, corrosive gasses present.
Now think about how that might impact on your idea.
I am still waiting on the solution to my problem of how to travel at many times the speed of light. Heck I will even settle for criticism without a solution if anyone thinks it is a stupid idea.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
You asked an easy one. Get yerself a big bucket of tachyons for fuel, and I'll build the engine for you (but I call shotgun on the first ride).
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Now your being negative and picking on me. I think I might have a little cry Boo Hoo.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
I don't need any more feedback so don't post here.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.
RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.