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I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

(OP)
I have designed and received a patent for a ZERO FLOAT VALVE for the internal combustion engine. I noticed that at two key points in its operation that it could actually capture lost energy during the exhaust stroke of the engine. I designed this for use in the commercial industry, works for cars also.
  Does anyone know of any other design that can do this or is this a first?
I also like to know if anyone has ever built an engine using a zero float valve system to the same specifications as a poppet valve engine. I like to know what the difference in horse power was.

Regards
Lenny123

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Perhaps you need to explain to the rest of us, what is meant by the term "zero float", because it means nothing to me.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

The chances of anything being 'a first' are near nil.

At least reveal the patent number, so we might have a clue what you're talking about.
 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

"capture lost energy during the exhaust stroke of the engine"
Now why didn't I think of that?!

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

I'm guessing he's talking about desmodromic valves, e.g. Ducati.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

His history says yes, desmodromic, and that he may come back in a few months to pick up an answer.
 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Isn't that what a turbocharger does, recoup waste energy from the exhaust?

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

I never cease to be amazed at the US Patent Office granting patents to things that have been previously patented or in the public domain for years.  Their attitude seems to be grant everything and let the courts fight it out later if anyone cares.  They don't even read the patents referenced in the application to see if there is prior art.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
 

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

This is why many large companies continuously scrutinise new patents (or have their own patent agents do so for them) and are on the look-out for anything that may be
  • of interest to them
  • conflict with pre-existing patents they own or with prior public domain innovations
Of course, if no one objects it is often because no one cares. This is the case with many inventions which are of the "so what?" variety. e.g. as seen on Dragon's Den etc.

What is often more interesting are the inventions that are very definitely in the "Gee, that's interesting and there is money in it for someone!" and that the original inventor then does nothing with. e.g. zip fasteners.

I guess the best we can say of the US patents department is that they've gotta eat too.
It seems to me that not only are many US patents issued without the trouble to see if they are already patented it (The US patents department obviously does rely on interested parties doing their work for them) but how badly written they are. But then, in the US, it is not uncommon for US patent attorneys to do much of their work on a "no win no fee" basis i.e. they take a share of the profits, if any, rather than a flat fee.

On the other hand the Japanese are very adept at writing patents that cover not just the innovation itself, and in great detail, but also so as to cover any possible collateral developments that may come along in the future.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

(OP)
First off this is not a desmodromic valve. Even desmodromic valves use springs. To anyone who does not know what a Zero float valve system is, its a valve designed for engines that does not require springs to return the valve to the closed position.

I know all about turbos that increase HP, my design is built in.
No need for all those extra costing parts.

I don't have a patent number yet, it was just approved. 2 to 4 weeks I was told is when I'll get one.

I don't need to read the FAQ.

Regards
Lenny

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

I think all a patent does is keep anyone from profiting on the invention for 7 years, less they get a license from you. After the 7 years isn't it a free for all? I have many ideas I'd like to patent, I just don't have the $ to do so.

Heres one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXIdOTkJhEY

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

The springs in a desmo do not allow float. They simply close off the tappet clearance so the engine can start and idle.

The Desmo principle has been used on looms since the early days of the industrial revolution.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.


 I think the patent period is more like 20 years.    

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

"irst off this is not a desmodromic valve. Even desmodromic valves use springs. To anyone who does not know what a Zero float valve system is, its a valve designed for engines that does not require springs to return the valve to the closed position."

That's exactly what a desmodromic valve does - it does not require springs to return the valve to the closed position (nominally).

Unfortunately, reality in the form of necessary clearances in the mechanism to avoid binding (especially when thermal expansion when the engine is running is considered), and production tolerances, means that the mechanism can only drive the valve to a fraction of a millimeter away from being closed. That is not good enough for starting and idling, and that is the ONLY reason for the small springs used in a Ducati desnodromic system - to take up the clearance and drive the valve all the way shut during cranking, as someone already mentioned.

Assuming that we are still talking about poppet-type valves here, I find it difficult to imagine ANY mechanical system for closing the valves that is not going to be subject to necessary clearances the same way that the Ducati system is.

In any case, in many ways the desmodromic system is an answer to a question that few people are asking. All of Ducati's competitors in World Superbike use valve springs, and the Ducati doesn't seem to have any overwhelming performance advantage because of its desmodromic system. In MotoGP and Formula 1 cars, where steel valve springs aren't good enough, they use pneumatic valve springs, and those are a whole lot simpler and lighter than any desmo system I've ever seen. In production cars, the trend nowadays is towards variable valve timing and lift systems. The variable timing bit is as possible with desmo as it is with valve springs, but variable lift - or even two-step lift like Honda VTEC - would present some interesting design challenges.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Brian

I am not sure the design is such a problem as is the extreme precision and synchronisation required in manufacture and maintenance.

I have always thought the tappet clearance springs could be replaced by a hydraulic device built into a closing cam follower.

Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Fail.

A team of good automotive engineers would run away from this concept....

PJGD

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Looks like a horrific amount of friction and horrendous sealing difficulties, as well as a huge mechanism with nowhere near enough flow area. No thanks.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

(OP)
I had expected as much. I'm sure Steve Jobs had his critics as well, look where apple is now.

As for any friction problems oil solves that problem. This sliding valve does not enter the cylinder so it can be as large as needed, so as well the open ports.  There are now materials that can be made that are self lubricating.  It's just a question of putting together the right design that works. My design is just a basic one that explains how it functions . This works for the USPTO. The changing part is coming up with the right design for the compression seals 156 in my drawing. The outside diameter of the valve guide could be smaller than the compression seals 156 inside diameter avoiding friction, up to a point. The valve guide could be then tapered at the fully closed position. The compression seals would ride up this taper creating a perfect seal. The inside of the compression seals 156 can be tapered as well to match the taper on the valve guide. During compression the pressure would force the compression seals 156 down and around the valve guide.
 

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

PatPrimmer, maybe it is... but just take a look at this and tell me it's not a thing of beauty: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/140/herculesxvidrawnbyjames.jpg/ .

I don't know, rotary and sleeve valves always had a strange appeal for me- years ago I've even dabbled with designing a variable timing rotary valve for two strokes (until someone 'in the know' showed me ridiculousness of the design and burst my soap bubble).

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Sure, rotary valves have a lot of appeal for airflow, however they have so far unsolvable friction or sealing problems, hence the universal adoption of poppet or piston port valves where direct combustion pressure and temperature is seen.

Why does everyone with a stupid idea think they are as smart as Steve Jobs.

As far as I know, Steve Jobs never even tried to suggest a sleeve valve was a good thing for sealing exhaust gas in an Otto cycle IC piston engine.

Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Patprimmer, your post is less of a discouragement for an idea I'm currently thinking of than you'd hope for... I'm no Steve Jobs caliber of innovator (admittedly, I'm yet to come up with *any* useful novelty), but your post seems to leave open the possibility that a simple disc valve could be used on intake side a bit away from the combustion pressure and temperature*?

* would I say a bit too much if I remarked that poppet valve on the intake would be used as well?

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

The intake is certainly an easier application than the exhaust.

Disc and reed valves have been used on 2 strokes to supplement piston port, but they have always been partly protected by the piston port valve.  

Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Actualy, that *is* my novelty- I'm contemplating feasibility of crankcase compression for 4 stroke engines (and for that I'd need a valve to let in the air in the crankcase every two revolutions- and disc valve spinning at half the crankshaft rpm would seem the easiest option)... And if needed, I'd use another stolen idea- when cylinder pumps the air toward intake let it build up the pressure and release it when the cylinder is partially filled with mixture (I seem to recall Hispano Suiza used that principle sometimes early in last century on their supercharged engines).

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

(OP)
Since no one here had any positive feedback for me or even so much as a sudgestion besides dumping it, I guess i'll take my stupid idea elsewhere.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

"As for any friction problems oil solves that problem."

And in the same sentence, "There are now materials that can be made that are self lubricating."

so.....you don't need any oil anyway, No "problem" to solve!

and this gem, "It's just a question of putting together the right design that works."

well, duhhhh!

Going to Mars is just a question of building a spacecraft.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

I had a comment to make about squirting oil on a hot exhaust valve...but I guess it would fall on deaf ears.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

"Since no one here had any positive feedback for me or even so much as a sudgestion besides dumping it, I guess i'll take my stupid idea elsewhere."

If you only wanted positive feedback, you should have specified.

Good job securing the patent. It's clear in your word file attachment that YOU have no interest in actually making it work, so why didn't you say "here's an interesting patent" and leave it at that?

Your first mistake is claiming it as a realistic, manufacturable design, and then (vaguely) trying to argue the case. So my positive feedback is be aware of the line between what you've established (the concept) and what you have not (everything else.)

Second mistake is making that argument here...

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

(OP)
Ok then, let me take a step back here. The bad feedback was positive for me since I didn't take into account about any friction problems. But I solved that problem with my feedback dated Dec 4 and no one commented on that part other than to say "using oil duh" or self lubrication seals all in the same sentence. Give me all your feedback good or bad, I'll work on fixing it. I wasn't looking for a pat on the back I just didn't expect everyone to dump on it that's all. If you're going to point out a problem perhaps you could point out a solution as well. That's all I'm asking ,am I asking too much?

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

OK I'll bite. Keep in mind that the drawing given previously was a sketch of a bunch of parts - with insufficient explanation "to the rest of us" of how it works in detail.

I see the drawing and I see the "wrist-pin" at the left that is apparently meant to connect to something driven from the engine. What? How?

I see the ports in the inner piece and the outer piece. What's connected to the combustion space and what's connected to the intake/exhaust manifolds? If it works the way I think it does, that is a huuuuuuge mechanism for a relatively small flow area. And the flow area has a convoluted path, if it is what I think it is. The area of the ports in those walls is larger than the area of the inlet/outlet at the left of the drawing by far - the inlet/outlet passage will be the restriction point.

If you propose to use this as an exhaust valve, how do you propose to deal with thermal expansion? How do you propose to deal with necessary mechanical clearances and how these change with thermal expansion? Poppet valves shut against their seat with (essentially) no clearance and no leakage. If you set the valve clearance wrongly on a normal engine so that the exhaust valve is held 0.001" open rather than allowing it to shut fully, generally the engine won't start.

I'm not talking about the piston-ring-seal-gizmo between the reciprocating piece and its bore. I'm talking about the clearance between that reciprocating piece and the ports that it appears to be blocking and unblocking.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

I apologize for my flippant comment regarding "It's just a question of putting together the right design that works."

Getting a patent is quite an accomplishment. I certainly have never done so myself.

However, here are some who have done so:

http://www.patentlyabsurd.org.uk/internat.html

Of those presented, here is a particular favorite on mine, variations of which have indeed reached the marketplace:

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=WO&NR=9939598&;KC=&locale=en_ep&FT=E

http://crujonessociety.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/double-beer-hat.jpg

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

(OP)
Thank you Brian Pertersen for pointing all that out to me. This is the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

 You can't really go by the size of the ports in that drawing. It's simply meant to explain how the flow of gases flow when working with a patent. It's a utility patent not a design patent. In the real world the ports  would be much larger.

How it works.

The valve guide 104 would be stationary and the valve body 106 would slide over the valve guide 104 creating a tight seal in the fully closed position. Your right about the pin 170 it would be connected to a driving force such as a cam, much the same way as a connecting rod is to a piston.
 The friction problem you mention.
Your question:
If you propose to use this as an exhaust valve, how do you propose to deal with thermal expansion? How do you propose to deal with necessary mechanical clearances and how these change with thermal expansion? Poppet valves shut against their seat with (essentially) no clearance and no leakage. If you set the valve clearance wrongly on a normal engine so that the exhaust valve is held 0.001" open rather than allowing it to shut fully, generally the engine won't start.

 My response:

The outside diameter of the valve body 106 could be cut down up to the point where the compression seals 158 are to avoid friction with the sleeve 102 as the valve reciprocates to and fro. The compression rings 158 would be lubricated by the engine oil. Now the inside cavity 134 of the valve body 106 could be drilled out larger than the outside diameter of the valve guide 104 to avoid friction as well. The only point of contact or friction would be at the face 116 to 166 of the valve body 106. This is the area that holds the compression seals 156 and retaining ring 154.

Your questions:

I see the ports in the inner piece and the outer piece. What's connected to the combustion space and what's connected to the intake/exhaust manifolds? If it works the way I think it does, that is a huuuuuuge mechanism for a relatively small flow area. And the flow area has a convoluted path, if it is what I think it is. The area of the ports in those walls is larger than the area of the inlet/outlet at the left of the drawing by far - the inlet/outlet passage will be the restriction point.

My response:

Open port 118 in the valve guide 104 matches up with the open port 112 in the sleeve 102. The open port 112 in the sleeve 102 is connected to the combustion chamber. The valve body 106 slides over valve guide 104 inside the sleeve 102 blocking the flow of gases when closed and allows the flow of gases when opened.
Keep in mind that the size of the either intake or exhaust valve and ports can be as large as needed to accommodate the flow of gases. The valves do not enter the combustion chamber at all. This system can be over head configuration or a side valve configuration. Side valves were used in the 1920's 30's on some engines.

Yes the flow of gases would have to make a few turns to escape but that's the price of this design.

 

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Ask an old Ford flat head guy (side valve) about the limitations of those engines, which were produced up through '53 in the USA.

Oh wait! I'm one of those! I'll take a shot!

1. Low volumetric efficiency

2. Overheating

All BS aside, I feel you won't be able to shed the heat this thing is going to be exposed to, if used as an exhaust valve.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Clearance in the mechanism (necessary to avoid friction) will result in excessive compression loss.

Compression and combustion gases filtering through all of the crevice volumes in that apparatus would lead to high heat losses and high unburned-fuel emissions.

At the same time, given the well-proven suitability of poppet valves in this application, all I see with this apparatus are disadvantages. I see no benefit to it relative to a normal cam and poppet valve arrangement.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

"would lead to high heat losses and high unburned-fuel emissions"

Not necessarily, We could re ignite them (the gases)in a power recovery turbine, coupled to the crankshaft through a viscous fluid coupling.

or, the power recovery turbine might be used to charge a bank of batteries, thus qualifying for green energy grants.

See, "It's just a question of putting together the right design that works."

If I just had Tony Stark's machine shop, I'd show you guys!

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

A simple test.

Assemble an engine without piston rings. Turn it over with a tension wrench set to just turn the engine without clicking or whatever it is yours does at a set tension. Now do a compression test.

Now do it again with the rings installed. Note friction by change in tension wrench settings required to turn it without clicking and new compression.

Note the relationship between friction and seal even at constant room temperature without aggressive, dirty, corrosive gasses present.

Now think about how that might impact on your idea.

I am still waiting on the solution to my problem of how to travel at many times the speed of light. Heck I will even settle for criticism without a solution if anyone thinks it is a stupid idea.

 

Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Pat,

You asked an easy one.  Get yerself a big bucket of tachyons for fuel, and I'll build the engine for you (but I call shotgun on the first ride).

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

P.S.  Coming back is the harder part.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

You whiner.  I was trying to be positive.  By the way, I have patented my idea for a tachyon bucket.

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Dam. I was going to steal that idea. OK I will use a techion bukket to beat your patent. Also I'm telling my mummy you called me a whiner, so there.

Regards
Pat
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RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

(OP)
Thank you all for your input,the good the bad and the ugly. The feedback not the movie. I'll just have to see what the future holds for me and this patent.
I don't need any more feedback so don't post here.  

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

What, here?

RE: I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

Suzuki produced a 90s model trailbike (r.m.x.250 cc) that has a sliding sleeve on the exhaust port Lenny, which rotated to change the exhaust timing, so obviously where there is a will there is a way!  

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