Last mile issue
Last mile issue
(OP)
Hello!
We are running an innovation project. The aim is to find solutions for last mile issue. It's an issue of transferring a person from a train/bus station to his/her house/workplace. This distance may be covered by walking, but it is time-consuming and difficult in case of a retired person or a person with a burden. It may be covered by car, but it's often hard to find a place for park near bus/train station, to say nothing of traffic jams and pollution. Probably, some vehicles like Segway or GM's EN-V show the direction to solve the issue.
I am interested in your opinion as professional engineers. Which decisions would you propose to solve the problem?
We are running an innovation project. The aim is to find solutions for last mile issue. It's an issue of transferring a person from a train/bus station to his/her house/workplace. This distance may be covered by walking, but it is time-consuming and difficult in case of a retired person or a person with a burden. It may be covered by car, but it's often hard to find a place for park near bus/train station, to say nothing of traffic jams and pollution. Probably, some vehicles like Segway or GM's EN-V show the direction to solve the issue.
I am interested in your opinion as professional engineers. Which decisions would you propose to solve the problem?





RE: Last mile issue
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
1) Coverage. Bus cannot drive up to each person's house and if it will, it takes a lot of time.
2) Information. Its driver doesn't have the information on when and where are his passengers going. That's why busses often are either empty or overcrowded, if they operate on fixed routes on fixed time. And if we suppose, that a bus is operated depending on passengers flow, thus not on fixed route and time, the problem of agregatting all that data concerning passengers directions emerges.
So, probably, private vehicle would be more effective here than public.
RE: Last mile issue
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
RE: Last mile issue
Walk - if you walk slowly, start earlier.
Walk - if you have a burden get a granny cart.
Bicycle.
Roller or in-line skates.
Kick scooter (possibly with electric assist).
Taxi.
Kiss-and-ride drop lane.
RE: Last mile issue
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Last mile issue
High density housing.
The bus should be able to stop in close vicinity to hundreds or thousands of people.
The next choice would be some system of front door pickup and dropoff. People could phone in to book buses. The system would be expensive.
RE: Last mile issue
Fit people - walk from a bus stop or bike or rollerblade . Actually I look at Razors (scooters) and think, hmm, they're pretty neat, but for grownups you'd need dedicated tracks.
If you've got tons of stuff - taxi
Oldies with lots of time - dial a bus (big, shared taxis).
None of that requires any new technology, just good city planning.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Last mile issue
If the problem is the last mile, then why do busses have bike frames on them?
The problem I have is it is difficult to carry large things on a bus (like lumber, or a cart of goods from the store).
RE: Last mile issue
Shared bike programs do not work.
RE: Last mile issue
Segway
Large plants have bicycles that everyone uses - just leave it where you get off - pick up that one or another when you leave.
My g-kids have electric Razor scooters. Easily good for a couple of miles, go like hell, can probably carry a decent load (might need an adult version) and FUN to drive. Hell on snow or ice!!
RE: Last mile issue
Life for those without cars here is bus (max 100m) to bus stop. Bus takes to either destination or train station. Train station connects to THE WORLD.
My parents thought about moving to near where I live because of this brilliant infrastructure.
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Last mile issue
Outside of a few congested places, it is better to have a car. Except if you are traveling a long distance.
If you wish to push people out of there cars, you not only need better mass transit, but higher driving age.
RE: Last mile issue
RE: Last mile issue
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
1. Small personal vehicles like segways, scooters and roller skates are nice. They help to cover small distances and do not require much road and park place as cars. If we only could somehow surmount their lacks. Imagine someone drove to a subway station by one of these means and now have to continue his trip by train. He can
a) Carry them along (except for Segway). Carrying roller skates or a scooter along is uncomfortable. It requires much space and adds an additional weight to a burden.
b) Enter the train on scooter, segway or with roller skates worn on. In case of segway and roller skates it is problematic due to increased required space and discomfort for other passengers, especially in peak hours. Maybe it could be solved in future by adapting public transport infrastructure for such small personal vehicles.
c) Left them (park) at the train station and continue the trip. But in that case it's not possible to use them to continue the trip after the train.
And here comes the idea of sharing them. As told TheTick, shared bike programs do not work. If you get a bike at share point, you have to bring it back to some other share point. So, you can't use the bike to get to your home and park it for the night (or you can, but it would cost you a lot of money and it's not the idea).
What if these segways, bikes and scooters could somehow be returned to the sharing point after you used them to get to your home. For example, segway, which could automatically return to train station after it has carried you to your house/work.
Do you think it's feasible without high costs???
2. Drawoh and Cranky108, you told about intelligent systems for bus routing. It's interesting! Could you imagine such system? I mean, should it be some rough route for the bus or it should lay the route in real time, processing requests, how would passengers know, when they have to be at the bus stop, how to prioritize requests and divide them between buses?
3. CorBlimeyLimey. Idea of moving sidewalks is fantastic. Maybe they will be everywhere in the future. Do you have some experience with similar or analogue systems? Is there technology to make them for low cost? (Maybe it's possible to build them right now in cities like Masdar?)
RE: Last mile issue
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
Regards,
Mike
RE: Last mile issue
You have a good but sad point. A metro subway/bus system extension was voted down here in my town(city) and that was the "unofficial" main reason.
The cost was rather minimal - but these people just didn't want the bad crowd in their neighborhoods.
Another sorry fact - they were probably right as the subway now does go to a "tony" shopping center where crime has completely escalated!!
RE: Last mile issue
While in China last year, I almost bought one, but realized I wouldn't use it where I currently work.
http://www.dahon.com/
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RE: Last mile issue
You need a bicycle? you rent one from a stand and abandon it at any other stand.
You don't need your own bicycle.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Last mile issue
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
I just noticed your reply to me.
When I noted that you could pick up and drop off at people's front doors, I was being facetious. Anything can be done if you are willing to spend the money. This this case, your technology is the telephone and the taxi. If you want to book a bus, you need an operator taking calls, a radio to communicate with the drivers, and passengers willing to sit on the bus while it wanders all over the residential neighbourhood visiting people's front doors.
You do not have many options. Here in Toronto, Canada, I have a 16ft wide property, and a transit stop about 200meters from my front door. If you are out in the country, this solution is a lot less feasible.
The Toronto Transit Commission has special buses for disabled people that do pick up and drop off at front doors. Disabled people are subsidized out of our tax dollars and/or out of our insurance dollars. I have not seen the numbers crunched for these buses. Perhaps they are a good investment!
RE: Last mile issue
Just have a standard route for the bus, and a number of standard devations.
And why do we have so many bus services, and none of them work for me? There is the city bus, the handy cap bus, the school bus, the special event bus, casino bus and all but two is run with tax dollars.
RE: Last mile issue
Women probably won't be too happy getting on a bicycle for various reasons. Men complain about seat comfort, which may be a prohibiting factor for them. Not all know how to ride a bicycle either.
Segways are fun but you have to be coordinated and possess balance to ride them. There is a learning curve, which some are not going to get. A bike shop used to sell them and we'd race around the shop during slow times. They are a blast but there was an adjustment to it. Some in the shop could not do it.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Last mile issue
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Last mile issue
We can't do text messages now on buses in the US. The DOT has nixed that.
Lets face it, the bus costs more (time and money), is not fun, and is not going where we want to go. If you can change these (one or more) then you could have a winner.
Try movies, like on planes, or music, or more distance between you and that smelly guy.
RE: Last mile issue
Toronto has streetcars, which run on tracks, and take electricity from overhead wires. Since the tracks are laid on regular roads, the streetcars are a part of traffic. Since they cannot pull to the side of the road, they stop in the middle, and everything behind them must stop too. A streetcar is a mobile roadblock. Streetcars are allegedly non-polluting, but I am sure you all know what this means. If something blocks the road, the streetcar cannot get around it. Here in Toronto, I find that any road with streetcars on it is best avoided in your car.
Streetcars are more comfortable than buses, but that is because they cannot zigzag. I understand that fully loaded buses grossly exceed maximum axle loads on city roads. This results in extra road maintenance.
Most bicycle seats are badly designed. Brooks bicycle saddles are made of heavy leather, and they are very comfortable. They cost more than some bicycles, but your butt is probably worth it.
RE: Last mile issue
If it's that important that you take public transportation, then walk the last mile (how hard can that be). If you can afford, and justify something else, then do so.
The best thing that has happened public transportation is reasonable parking lots (say park and ride).
RE: Last mile issue
Regards,
Mike
RE: Last mile issue
Expencive, and the low standards of the other riders. Difficult to get to, and slow (relitive term).
RE: Last mile issue
Driving in downtown Toronto is fairly difficult, and parking is expensive. The TTC has parking lots at its subway stations out in the suburbs, and these get used.
Toronto is a moderably old city by North American standards, and it has a lot of high density housing, with the attendant parking problems, and ease of access for transit. Lots of wealthy people downtown do not own cars. If I want to go downtown from home, I take either the nearby bus, or I walk about a kilometer down to a streetcar stop. I am reasonably fit, and the walk is manageable, and often enjoyable.
I do not know where the OP is located. The low density development characteristic of a lot of American cities is ideal for cars, and is not very manageable for public transit. That last kilometer or mile or two is a challenge.
RE: Last mile issue
My little car (a Frod Munter runaround) lost its 5th and rev gears. So I took it to my local friendly shop, about a mile or two from my home.
Fixed within a couple of hours. A nice lunch in a local cafe and a pint in the boozer opposite the garage.
No last mile issues today!
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
But then again I don't drive a Frod.
RE: Last mile issue
In Asia and South America, walk out your door to the nearest main street, wait no more than 30 sec, flag down a taxi (if they don't stop first - which they usually do), and go.
One also sees many, many more walkers and fit people in those countries (as compared to N. America)....
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This is normally the space where people post something insightful.
RE: Last mile issue
Next time you're in Lancing or Sompting, bring your car. The local shop is amazing: this is what's wrong, this is what it'll cost, this is how long it'll take. I've taken my cars there for 10+ years now.
These places are so good to know. Like good doctors and dentists. Specially if you're like me - brain the size of a planet, but 10 thumbs.
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
With GPS on buses and the increasing omnipresence of smartphones and data collections, public transportation can be made much more practical, if municipalities take advantage of it. There are systems in operation that will let you watch your bus travel on a map in real time, so that you can go outside to meet it when it approaches rather than waiting at a bus stop.
Manchester has a bus system, but it is facing constant cuts. Partly, it's a negative feedback loop. There are technologies that could make it more appealing & increase ridership, but because ridership is low, the funding isn't available to take advantage. And people are loathe to use property taxes to fund something often viewed negatively (motivations ranging from, "I don't use so I don't want to pay for it", overly simplistic cost-benefit analyses, and even, "It's socialism!" (no joke; welcome to America)).
I suspect a system of smaller, point-to-point, on-demand vans (like a airport pickup and dropoff service) using these tracking, scheduling, and routing technologies could be more cost effective, efficient, and enjoyable to use.
Rob Campbell, PE
Imagitec: Imagination - Expertise - Execution
imagitec.net
RE: Last mile issue
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
RE: Last mile issue
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Last mile issue
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
Originally Derryfield, Manchester, NH was renamed in 1810, three years after Samuel Blodget built completed his canal and lock system on the Merrimack River and declared it would drive the creation of the "Manchester of America." It was eventually home of the largest textile mill in the world, and both Manchesters' millyards bear a striking resemblance.
Rob Campbell, PE
Imagitec: Imagination - Expertise - Execution
imagitec.net
RE: Last mile issue
Never mind across the continent. It's common in our small, old New England states to have towns with the same names within an hour's drive. I worked for two Texans (they did the weekly commute by plane) that it drove nuts. We had customers in Hudson, New Hampshire and Hudson, Massachusetts, only 39 miles apart. Never mind Salem, Concord, Lincoln...
Rob Campbell, PE
Imagitec: Imagination - Expertise - Execution
imagitec.net
RE: Last mile issue
Most of the last mile suggestions just won't work on some of these snowy days. And in fact the bicycle lanes go unused most of the times, if you don't count the bad drivers that use them because they can't stay in a single lane (a pet peeve that people drive to fast).
One solution to the last mile issue is if people would buy there things on-line, and the local stores delivered. Then there would not be as many last mile issues. But the local union drivers would run up the cost of deliveries so much no on could afford them.
Strange, how do the food places do it?
RE: Last mile issue
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Last mile issue
Work from home dosen't work for those of us who are required to visit work sites, or collect data from sites.
So I drive to work, get a company car and drive some more (No I don't want to drive a company car home).
RE: Last mile issue
1) Light trains/commuter rail is an absolute boondogle and complete waste of money in every single place that did not have it 70 years ago. It works well in Chicago, Boston, NY and London b/c the cities were well developed before general use of the automobile. Any city developed since then cannot effectively use a train b/c everyone is so spread out.
2) Houston, TX gets federal subsidies for their public transport system. They avoided the folly of a train system and have set up specific bus lanes, treated as a rail-free rail system where the buses are equipped with systems that turn the lights green as they approach. Vastly cheaper and more flexible than any rail boondogles.
3) As stated in previous posts, bus lines bring criminals into your neighborhood while you're at work. I don't have a solution to that.
4) Encourage bus ridership by rolling out a fleet of buses that enhance the existing routes by offering a first-class ridership experience. Leather sofas, mood lighting, a bar (yes -- please, a bar!!) Charge an extra dollar or two and see how many people start using it.
5) As for the last mile issue, where I live, we have six months out of the year that you WILL NOT DO ANYTHING like riding a bike, taking a segway or walking. There are many days that I stay in the office an extra hour or two just to let it cool down enough outside so that I can walk from the office door to my car and get the A/C running. I don't even want to have to walk the 19 feet from my car to my front door when I'm home and am seriously considering moving to a house with an attached garage (mine's detached) so that I don't have to endure the insanity of the heat here.
Engineering is not the science behind building. It is the science behind not building.
RE: Last mile issue
Regards,
Mike
RE: Last mile issue
Or as I have suggested in other places, a set of solar panels to park your car under?
Use buses and not trains, what a concept. More cost (maintenance and fuel)and less reliability.
SntMan, have you consitered that what the criminals don't carry off they destroy. It make no difference to you except if it is destroyed you have to pay someone else to haul it away.
RE: Last mile issue
Still rather they came by bus though I think.
RE: Last mile issue
If you are building a transit system from scratch, you need to start with buses. Subways and trains work because they are located in places with high density population, and/or because there are buses feeding passengers to transit hubs.
The OP's original question was how to solve that last mile problem. The solution is for a vehicle of some kind to drive as close as possible to the rider's front door. This creates the following problems...
- You need lots of transit vehicles. They need to be cheap. A large part of the bus cost is maintenance and the driver. You do want a good, professional driver.
- You need some sort of infrastructure located close to rider's homes and close to their destinations.
- The trip must be reasonably fast. This rules out a bus dropping fifty passengers each at their front doors. Even transfers from bus to bus take a lot of time.
- If you are building a system from scratch, you want to use as much existing infrastructure as possible. This includes roads and railways as well as maintenance facilities. This does in a lot of exotic technology.
There are lots of transport companies and organizations that pick you up at the front door. Most of them are taxi companies. Mostly, they use telephones. They cost a lot, and the telephones are not the primary cost.RE: Last mile issue
Buses are much more flexible, they don't shut down the entire system when one fails, they can be re-routed based on changing demographic needs and they cost much less. I don't get this silly romantic love affair with trains that half of this country has. Get over it. Buses can do far more than trains can and they can do it much more inexpensively.
Googling "transportation subsidies per passenger mile" results in hundreds of sites that show basically the same thing, which is that the subsidy for vehicles is about a half a cent per passenger mile, buses are about 22 cents per passenger mile and trains are about 84 cents per passenger mile. Various studies show different numbers, but none of them show trains being less than many times the cost of buses.
However, even these studies are not really fair. Nobody says that we shouldn't have rail in cities like Chicago, NY, Boston, London, etc. The question is how much does it cost to roll out one of these black holes? The cost per passenger mile is perhaps acceptable in the cities I just mentioned, because so many people use them, lowering the overall cost per passenger mile. However, light rail is a terrible idea in Seattle, San Francisco or L.A. The reason is that nobody uses trains in these cities. There was a story a couple of years ago of a coyote* that hopped on board one of the Seattle light rail trains. Why? Because coyotes are solitary animals and stay far away from humans. The light rail train is a perfect habitat for this animal. THERE ARE NO PEOPLE ON THESE TRAINS. As a result, the cost for these fiscal black holes approaches about $100 per passenger mile. Think about it -- for every person on board, the taxpayers are on the hook for $100 every single mile, every single day. Trains are a HORRIBLE idea any place that they weren't built 70 years ago.
* http:
Engineering is not the science behind building. It is the science behind not building.
RE: Last mile issue
The truth is the expencive parts of a light rail is the tracks. And while the cars do cost more, each one can take more people.
One of my big things about buses is they use main roads and stop every two blocks, in the turn lane, with no intention of turning.
I have to be careful each morning to be sure I don't get behind one of these big smelly.....
I do drive a big wasteful truck sometimes, because my smaller more efficent truck dosen't work well on ice. But the last mile issue is the same as with my smaller truck, bad on ice, unless the bus comes much closer to my house.
My comments on fuel and maintenance cost of buses, has more to do with the fuel choice, and otto cycle engine vs electric motors. But as you pointed out the driver is a big cost. Trains can be automated where they don't need drivers, if the local will allow it.
If I recall at DFW they do have electric driverless buses, but i doubt the cost of the special road is much less than rails.
Seeing the news, how good are our school bus drivers?
RE: Last mile issue
One other thing occurs to me. Here in Toronto, we have been extending subway lines. What happens when you extend a subway line is that nobody gets on. What is happening is that you have extended into an area where everybody has cars. You need ten or twenty years for non-car-owners to move into the area and take advantage of the transit. Eventually, the lines get used.
This has to affect your financial planning. Expensive transit systems do not pay off quickly. This is all the more reason to find solutions that minimize capital costs.
RE: Last mile issue
Maybe if they had adders, like where they could get some breakfast while riding.
I see newspaper machines at bus stops (only the nicer stops), so why not vending machines?
RE: Last mile issue
I used to do a lot or reading while on the transit. When I got a car, my reading went way down. There are restaurants and stores inside the fare paid area of Toronto's transit, but that is the subway. A lot of people don't read, and/or cannot read on a moving, bumping bus, streetcar or train.
You could provide wireless hubs, but this only works when you can find a seat. A lot of transit here is crowded at rush hour. Would you want your bank manager to do stuff with your account with thirty strangers looking over his shoulder? There are all sorts of security issues with public wireless access.
RE: Last mile issue
If I'm on the train, I'll more often than not have a beer and watch the world go by.
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
A big tower on top of the train station with zip lines going out radially in all directions.
Now of course the return journey doesn't come as cost effectively as you'd need a lot more towers, but hey - you asked for opinion's not good ideas.
I used the train a bit when I first was working but it was a pain. Apartment to the train station wasn't too bad but if raining etc. far enough to get wet, though being morning and the UK it was rare to raise a sweat. The train itself was frequently late or delayed, plus I had to make at least one change which involved waiting around at Eastleigh for a while. Then from the station when I got off was a bit of a walk and could again be unpleasant depending on weather, though at least I only got attacked by dogs the once. Returning in the evening the delays were problematic too, plus if I needed to stay late to finish something or because of travel etc. there weren't many later trains...
All in all the convenience of a car was difficult to beat. Living near enough to routinely walk is a nice dream though, maybe one day I'll manage it.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Last mile issue
For a year or so I walked 10 mins to Brighton station, took a train (£13 a week) to Shoreham, then walked for 20 mins to my workplace. Plenty of time for reflection and some nice exercise. Plus there was an offy next to the station for the return trip.
There is a bloke who works here that walks about 7 miles each way each day. He passes my flat at about 8:30. That's quite a trek in the dark and rain.
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
And what of head phones? But not while driving please.
And so what if they have little shops in the stations. Amtrack has dinner service in the trains. Not that I take Amtrack, because it is to slow. Besides I sort of enjoy being felt up at the airport (jokeing).
But I hear they also want to same type of securty on Amtrack.
No wounder the car is so popular.
RE: Last mile issue
- Steve
RE: Last mile issue
How about a trebuchet in front of the rider's house or apartment. The trebuchet flings them into a net mounted above the train station, and they are lowered into a train. When they return, a trebuchet at the train station flings them into a net mounted above their house or apartment. The force on and movement of the net cocks the first trebuchet for the next day's commute.
If they are willing to pay extra for the service, we could spray coffee and doughnuts at them as they hurtle overhead.
RE: Last mile issue
Maybe it is just better to put parking places next to the bus stop.
RE: Last mile issue
If you move into a neighbourhood with a covenant (?) you are usually not allowed to have a pick-up truck in your driveway, any car on blocks, or a satellite dish. There are strict rules about your roofing, siding, and your lawn. Perhaps you are not allowed weird window decorations like chartreuse curtains. The people who write these things probably did not think about trebuchet's and nets.
The people who build these neighbourhoods are usually trying to keep out scum. I would think this rules out anyone who rides on transit.
RE: Last mile issue
No one has complained about my pickup parked on the street. Although they did complain about my neighbour parking three cars on the street.
The covenant does specify about antentini (sp?) rising above the roof line of the house. My dish is small, and can't be seen from the sidewalk.
So in general I can get away with some things, but large nets I believe would be frowned upon.