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How far is the Smart grid Going?

How far is the Smart grid Going?

How far is the Smart grid Going?

(OP)
Below is a section from a news report I get.  One statement in it got my attention. "In a smaller test in Washington State from 2005 to 2007, the technology enabled utilities to communicate with smart thermostats and other equipment in homes, reducing peak electricity demand and responding to fluctuations in supply from intermittent resources."

So, the utility can change your settings and turn things on and off to meet their need?
Is this how you read this?  
Where does it end?
 

"Can Software Patch the Ailing Power Grid?
Technology Review (10/26/11) Bullis, Kevin

A consortium providing the technology for a large-scale smart grid project says the software is nearly complete. IBM's Ron Ambrosio expects the system to be operational by this time next year. The system will power the $200 million initiative to connect the fragmented grid infrastructure across five U.S. states and 11 utilities, including 95 smaller efforts to cut power consumption and manage the delivery of electricity to homes and businesses. In a smaller test in Washington state from 2005 to 2007, the technology enabled utilities to communicate with smart thermostats and other equipment in homes, reducing peak electricity demand and responding to fluctuations in supply from intermittent resources. The researchers say that a large-scale, smart system could save billions of dollars. The project will enable utilities to take advantage of renewable energy, accommodate electric cars, store power from the grid, and establish microgrids that could survive on their own during a power outage. Ambrosio says the goal is to be able to run transmission lines at 95 percent to 97 percent capacity."
 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Many places already have variants of this; most common are remote switches for aircon units to avoid the need for brownouts.  The programs that I'm aware of are all volunteer - you let the utility install the unit and get a break on your bill.

Smart grid is a very broad concept.  It could be (and will be) implemented at all levels, from distribution to industry to residential. I would bet the rollout will be top down in most places, with the dollars spent where there is capacity for larger savings.

I would be surprised to see any non-voluntary implementations, especially on the residential side.  A smart grid entrepeneur who I saw speak gave the example of a smart toaster deciding to wait to make your toast; that wouldn't be a very popular toaster. I don't think there will be broad adoption on the residential level until more places have incentives in place to offset the added cost. The most likely incentive will be to vary utility rates based on time of usage in order to encourage people to move flexible usage to non-peak times as is already done in some locales. These people might be interested in appliances which allow them to turn on/off based on the cost.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Yes, absolutely.
My fear is that what will happen is that instead of whole areas browned out, they will selectively shut down appliances... kettles and electric fires, and so on.
Seems reasonable so far till you move to a "voluntary code" where users are expected to stop using high power consumption items in peak times and then penalties if they don't obey. Some unseen penalties maybe.
And it may be that rather than simply shutting down some appliances in all homes, they will be selective about which homes are shut down.
So when there is a shortage in a certain area, more appliances will be shut down in some homes and districts than others. People like Al Gore might never ever be affected... but anyone late on a payment or in a poor part of town may find themselves more selected against than others.
Smart grids and smart devices enable the provider to monitor usage patterns and not anonymously either.
Some people may think there is enough intrusion into our private lives already but intrusion plus control could be a step too far.

When does a break on your bill become a penalty for not agreeing?
One thing that the water authorities found was that when they initiated a water conservation project, it was too successful. They found that their revenue dropped. To compensate, they increased charges.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

How about demand based pricing and sell an LED screen that just shows the current price of electricity? the homeowner can mount it where ever it will help them save the most!

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Xera,

   How good will the network security be?

   I go to Gibson Research and I run their Shields Up program.  My computers pass their "True Stealth" analysis, meaning that there is no response to probes from the website.  This means that my computers are fairly invisible to hackers on the internet.

   I do not want my appliances to be visible on the internet.  If my appliances can be run remotely from the internet, some twit will find a way to do it, and they could do significant damage.  Your stove and toaster are potential fire hazards, especially if you leave stuff on burners.  Your washing machine could flood the room it is sitting in.  Any closed circuit cameras you have are a potential violation of your privacy.   

               JHG

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

One advantage of smart grid, is they won't have to charge people with a service call for not paying there electric bill.

This would make prepaid electricity possible. You could have a display showing how much you have left until your lights go off.
Sort of like a parking meter (works good on moble homes too).

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

cranky108,

   If you ever get a chance, watch The Kid, starring Charles Chaplin and Jackie Coogan.  This is a brilliant, classic movie.  There are excellent quality prints and videos out there with music composed by Chaplin.  Some of the non-official copies have extra scenes in them.

   In addition to the movie being funny and relevant, Chaplin has a pay as you go gas meter in his apartment.  No internet connection was indicated in the movie.

               JHG

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Stuxnet anyone?
Or its descendent Duqu?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Here in SoCal we have volunteered for the 'Air Conditioning Cycling' program, for which we receive approximately $25-$30 per month (the summer months only) credit on our bill even if they never actually disable our AC unit.  In the 15 years or so that we've participated in this program, I can't recall more than 2 or 3 times that we weren't able to use our AC when we wanted to and even then the 'outage' lasted only a few hours at most.

That being said, Southern California Edison did just replace (with the last few weeks) our old mechanical meter with a new 'smart' meter, but so far no additional programs have been announced or any other info other than how to read the new meter as well as some explanation of why they were implementing the program, but that's about it although one of the items was that it would be a prerequisite for future programs, which if they are introduced more details would be forthcoming.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

One of the things that can be determined is what devices you have running and when. This doesn't require any smart devices because each device has its own "fingerprint". An electric kettle is quite different to a TV.
With different electrical circuits, it isn't going to be difficult to identify which devices are on which circuits and selectively shut down individual circuits.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

The difference in the past and now with prepaid, is the internet and credit cards (debit cards). The issue was in the past, someone would have to go and retrieve the money. Now it is electronic.

Part of the problem is people want to live beyond there means, and there probally loads of reasons for this, but the over all cost is carried by all of us. By making remote turn off's of services it puts much more of the burden on those who (customers) made bad decisions.

The other side is who is deciding what you should be using when, issue. Hour by hour pricing is a better solution, but it looks like we will not be going that route (you customers are just to stupid).

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Trends. Between demand management, outages from severe weather, and thieves stealing copper from the substations, I am seriously considering a whole-house backup.

Regards,

Mike

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Just don't forget the cage around your generator to keep the thieves from carting it away.
 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

MikeHalloran, unfortunately, true.

Copper from substations and streetlights, central air from churches, you name it, all turned to scrap.

Maybe we oughta just supply 'em the drugs, it'd be cheaper by far:)

Regards,

Mike

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Can't just give them drugs, and food. That would make us an enabler of there problem. They need to fall hard, and pick themselves up on there own.

Good luck on generating your own. It isen't as easy as it looks.

Maybe something from another post is the answer. If lightning protection attracts lightning, then maybe it would help your smart grid hardware issues. I hear solid-state devices produce some preaty colored smoke.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

cranky108, agree for food and everything else, disagree for drugs, give 'em all they want. Maybe they fall hard and don't get up. Their choice.

Not trying to turn the discussion, nothing further on this from me:)

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

I reject the idea that we the population is to stupid to make decisions on energy usage. This is the same argument as economics, that we can't be expected to make the correct decision based on price.
I can however agree that for a rebait, we should consiter allowing some control of some appliances.

But is smart grid is used to control us, I disagre with it. If it is used, with a cost reduction, to help us, I can go for that.

Smart grid can be a great thing, or a matter of goverment control.

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

The hospital down the road has emergency power probably in the form of a large diesel engine or turbine.
In fact, given third party access to the network, if there is a brownout and they have built in surplus capacity they can, as an auto-producer, sell that extra to the grid.
But, autoproducers usually run their own power plants continuously and have enough use of the power and heat to make it efficient.
In any event, the chances are your A/C may get switched off as an unnecessary appliance along with everyone elses to stave of a potential brownout which sis fine if they leave the fridgefreezer running (this is for their own good - in the UK you get compensation from the power companies if your frozen foods get spoilt - so smart makes sense if they selectively shutdown kettles and things.
But they also have to have a social awareness which says they cannot shutdown heating (including central heating pumps) or A/C for the elderly. Actually, given the AGW mongers claiming so many heat deaths, they are committed to this one whether they know it or not and it may extend to more than just old folks and those at home with health problems, disabilities etc.
Oh, and they can shut down all those hollywood types Prius Charging systems.

All well and good so far.

But when they shut down your A/C but leave big Al's running is when you need to worry. Mind you I suspect we haven't been told the full story about Al Gore's homes.... he too probably has emergency power back up systems and it wont be from any wind turbines.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

I can see it now.

Two minutes left in the game and the home team is driving for the winning score.  The QB drops back to pass and ..............

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Don't make me get technical here. But natural brownouts are not caused from the same reason as blackouts. So if you have a natural brownout, blame the utility company, or your plant maintenance surervisor (Maybe the new hot tub next door).

The hospital down the street has there own generation just for this reason. I would be more concerned when you are in the dentist chair.

And blackouts can happen for other reasons than power production limits. Just look at the East coast of the US.

My concern is giving more control to people who have no business making decisions over your life.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

reasonable and unreasonable depends on who holds the remote.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Explain why when oil is in short supply the price of gas goes up. And when the supply of oil is in ove supply the price goes down.

But.....We can't do the same with electricity?

That would let you run your AC 24/7, and I can set my dryer to run an midnight.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Um, if we managed it in the UK, and we can do that in the Australia, why can't the USA? My off peak rate for electricity is about 40% of the normal rate in Oz, I've forgotten what the differential was in the UK.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Interesting talk on Radio 4 about the surge damage done in Houston (Irene?) and that 13 million people were without electricity, some for 2 weeks.
It seems with the deregulation and unbundling of national power companies, to whatever extent that applies in the US, the Texas power companies have deliberately isolated themselves from the national grid. While this means there is no connection between the Texas Grid and any neighbouring grids, it also means they are exempt from or manage to evade federal legislation.  

It also meant that consumers then faced increased electricity bills and taxes to recover from the damage caused by the storm surge.

But what got my attention was the concept of "neo liberalism" which was said to be to blame for all this. The idea that private companies can act for short term profit and not long term sustainability.

Seems to me it is too easy to blame companies which are legally obliged to act in the best interests of the shareholders when in fact it is legislators who bear the responsibility for establishing, monitoring and enforcing the regulatory environment companies must operate in.

If there is a need for social responsibility and Texas power evaded it by evading federal regulation (and presumably, federal relief and aid) then the responsibility is with the Texas Legislature.

And this is a simple example of how things can go astray. You want to live in Texas with smart meters? Maybe not. Not without better legislation and not without some oversight from the citizens, not without someone who truly represents the consumers having a voice on the regulatory boards. (and that doesn't mean an elected political animal).

Incidentally, we should not expect too much of any OFGAS, OFTEL, or any other Oversight group since they all tend to gravitate to either doing what government wants or what the service provider wants and the consumer gets the short end from both. There is a case to be made for periodic house cleaning, e.g. as provided for in the second amendment (we should have such an amendment in UK law)
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

The utilities in Texas were smart to avoid fedral regulation, and I wish we could do the same.
The problam is the regulations are veague, and are interpered to the whems of the regulators, who's only desire is leave fines so they look good.

In the US, each utility is required to pay for repairs of there system from there own means (except goverment utilities who get money from FEMA for storms, also while having much higher rates).

The state utility boards are in bed with the lobbiest, who want special things like wind, solar, and discounts for big business. So they don't have time the the little people (voters).

This is the exact point at which state utility boards require 30% wind power, and no coal generation.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

There are some really crazy people out there.  I was just watching our local news and they were interviewing a women who is so scared of the new 'smart meters' installed at her apartment complex that she's now living out of her car "so as not to have to be near the meters and the dangerous radio signals that they're broadcasting back to the power company".  I wonder if she's uses a cell-phone while she's sitting in her car?

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

At what point does it become an invasion of privacy?
Where is the line newspeople won't cross?
Surely the woman living in her car is not newsworthy or relevant. Since she recognisably doesn't represent any logical aspect of the debate her inclusion can only be to hold her up to ridicule and expose her phobias to the public and does not illustrate any logical aspect of the debate.
That she has mental health issues, this is clearly a moral, if not legal, violation of her right for her medical problems to be kept confidential.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Note that the entire 'news' item appeared to focus on the potential 'dangers' that were being caused by the new meters.  Of course, if they had been reporting the potential benefits that this and other smart grid technology could bring to residents of the area, the story would have never been aired.  Corporate-owned media ONLY reports that which will increase the bottom-line profit.  NEWS is now what sells ad time, pure and simple.  

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

The new meters are dangerous if you hold them to close to your head, while talking to them.

This is a minor attempt to rally people about the new concept, without admitting the goverment is behind it. After all,news people know how stupid the rest of us really are.

Which should be offencive to us. That it is assumed we are to stupid to make rational decisions by ourselves. That someone else needs to do it for us.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Not dangerous if you wear a foil hat:)

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Just approve that XL pipeline from Canada and you can have all the energy you want, just like the good old days.

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Or you could let them drill a 'fracking' well in your backyard...

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

I'm sorry the covenets in my neiborhood won't allow drilling or mining.

I don't know about gas pipes. I like seeing the trains of coal roll by my office window.

Strangely no one complains about the radio transmitter on our gas meters, or the radio transmitters on the traffic lights.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

EMF has been shown to have various effects on people, some more than others.  To dismiss someone who claims to be extra-sensitive to it as being crazy is akin to laughing at people who have been diagnosed with other little-understood ailments, such as chronic fatigue syndrome or fibromyalgia, just because some doctors don't recognize it as a legitimate condition and you have never felt any effect.
I have read similar stories regarding the EMF produced by smart meters, and it seems to cause the biggest problem when the meter to the house is located near a bedroom or other frequently occupied area.  The issue often raised is the lack of rights when it comes to controlling EMF in your own home.  You can control what appliances or other gadgets you may have, but the power company won't recognize your right to limit EMF when it is related to their supply of electricity.    

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

But are we talking about the EMF produced by any device through which a current is passing, which would have included the old mechanical meter, or are we talking about the RF associated with the telemetry link (radio transmitter) which is part of the 'smart' meter/grid technology?

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

I think Smart Grid will have a shelf life but the length is uncertain in my mind.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

So smart grid is intended to take the place of coal power plants?

I guess if you are going to dream, dream big.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

It's the "demand control" that does it.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Don't you mean "goverment control".

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Functionally, yeah.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Savana power presents this primarily focussing on remote meter reading but they say this will enable them to:

Quote:

....start and stop service immediately without service calls.
and with smart switchboxes selectively start and stop different rings in the home?Not simply to initiate supply to new property owners or cut them off when they leave maybe?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Something like that was proposed, but the state did not like the idea, so it was forgotten.

The idea was that you purchase a 10 or 20 KWH card from your local store, and swipe it on the meter.

It was intended to reduce costs for poorer customers, by reducing the service calls, late fees, meter reads and billing costs.
Sort of like pay as you go cell phones.

But you would have the same problems with either of these with people who are really hot headed.

Really we had one customer who was so mad that we had cut him off, that he borrored the neibors chainsaw and cut down the power pole.

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Prepayment meters (for gas electricity and water, Schlumberger did a water meter with a battery powered solenoid valve attached) are nothing new. They don't need to be "smart".
If the "smart meters" were only used to cut off people who don;t pay (not always easy because there are regulations in the UK about who can be cut off and who can't) or when properties change hands, fine but once you have that ability some one will always want to put it to another purpose.

PS Anyone who chainsaws a power pole when there are plenty of speed cameras in fully functioning order needs watching.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Speaking of the UK, years ago there were coin-operated water heaters installed resulting in a sort of 'pay-as-you-go' climate.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: How far is the Smart grid Going?

Someone over at Linked in has started a smart meter thread and one of the posts raises a new point: data security.
It appears they rejected them in the Netherlands in part because of fears that too much information on individual households was going to be accessible to the first hacker to access the system.
From usage patterns it would be easy, they thought, to assess which houses had lots of devices, and when they were likely to be unoccupied.
This lead me to wonder about the next generation Stuxnet/Duqu virus but one which, unable to easily target the central power distribution system computers could attack the individual homes in a mass co-ordinated attack and disrupt service by either switching everyone off or switching everything on all at once to bring about a brownout.
  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

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