Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
(OP)
I don't know exactly where this question should be posted, but I think this might be as good a place as any...
I have recently received plan review corrections where one of the corrections was "provide e-file of the RISA-3D."
Questions:
1. Has anyone else received this request from a plan reviewer?
2. If so, did (would) you provide it to them?
We have already submitted full input/output and all kinds of graphical key plans.
I have recently received plan review corrections where one of the corrections was "provide e-file of the RISA-3D."
Questions:
1. Has anyone else received this request from a plan reviewer?
2. If so, did (would) you provide it to them?
We have already submitted full input/output and all kinds of graphical key plans.





RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
I/we do electronic copies of all Calcs, Drawing, etc and either provide them to the reviewer or send directly via architect or contractor.
MOST seem to accept them - even sealed - without question
A few accept them with the caveat that we provide "wet" copies soon thereafter.
I like it - saves a lot of time, postage and hassle!!
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
I will send pdf copies of drawings, calcs, etc., but I don't like the idea of sending my *.r3d file (or *.std for Staad.pro, *.rss for RAM, etc.). They already have my input and output.
Is this what you were talking about?
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
Yes - I do it when asked. What do you have to lose?? Job gets "Ok'ed", contractor is happy and the project gets built. Everyone is happy.
PS - Make sure your calcs are correct!! Some can read!!!
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
Does "protected" mean you've taken steps to mitigate attempts at changes (such as sending PDFs rather than the original workfile), or there's no possible way they could make changes (and we all know the latter is all but impossible)?
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
But have come to find that even PDF files can be "read" and quite accurately. Just bought a software package "pdf2cad V8" that works remarkably well - and is quite cheap <$100.00
So I guess that idea goes out the window!!
I used to think that real blueprints couldn't be "re-blueprinted" until someone "stole" my design and seal and pawned if off as "new"
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
While most local codes have a general statement that the plan checker can require additional documents "necessary to review the design;" it is still reasonable to ask to what end the documents are specifically necessary. Without knowledge that the plan checker is actually qualified to review them (In my "electrical" world, they often aren't) and a statement of how reviewing the additional documents would assure public safety, I would request a written justification.
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
Ron
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
I would guarantee that if you gave me a structural model for some structure, I would be able to find something in it to complain about if I wanted to. Plan reviewers can do the same thing.
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
If your model predicts a BAD THING and your engineering judegemnt overrides thae model, hadn't you better have documented why?
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
I have had plan reviewers tell me that I should be using K=2.1 for cantilevers even using AISC 360-05 Direct Analysis Method. They are clearly wrong, but it was something they were able to find to stop up the permit by another few weeks.
I have had another reviewer make me re-run my entire model and resubmit all the documentation because in the model I used a W8x13 (resulting code check was less than 0.2) and in the drawing I used a W8x10. I even noted the change in the calculations.
We design structures that not everyone likes in their backyard. So many people, including plan reviewers, look for reasons to delay or impede their construction.
I have no problems sending full documentation, including printouts of all the input and output of the computer model. But if they want to run the model on their own, they can build it themselves from the input data.
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
Additionally, for re-running the model, why didn't you re-run the model in the first place if you changed your design? It would seem to me that it would have taken your a lot less time to re-run the model when you made the change to the drawing; than hoping that the reviewer would accept the original modeling with your changes.
In the end, you want the review process to be as short as possible. If you provide a copy of the computer files will expedite the review by allowing a quick input of the data into the model; but will allow the reviewer to quickly see your inputs to the model. Does it mean that things will be caught sooner or not missed if only a printout was submitted? Would you rather have the reviewer have to waste time sifting through the printout to get the inputs and hope that a mistake isn't made in the inputting that may delay the review of your project?
If the reviewer needs to verify your results; providing an electronic copy of the files should speed up the review time. If other projects are being submitted with the electronic files, your projects may get pushed back because of the extra effort it takes to review them. In the end, if you want to expedite your reviews, I would suggest meeting with the reviewers before you submit a project in the future. Get a clear idea of what they are expecting. Communicate with the reviewers and try not to get agitated with them.
I'm a reviewer of other types of projects than those being discussed in this thread. I have my PE and review projects submitted by PE. Unfortunately, having a PE does not make you infalible (on either side of the fence). It doesn't make you immune to errors in copying equations; reading a rule/regulation/standard; converson of units; etc. The best thing when submitting infromation for review is to clearly communicate to the reviewer is what you did; why you did it; and what assumptions you made.
In the end, you need to determine what you have to do to satisfy the reviewer in order to get your projects approved.
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
In the case in question, a RISA file on a CD could not be changed and therefore should be allowable.
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
A wet signature is still required...
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
I imagine some less than ethical folks have "tweaked" computer output in the past to try and substantiate a design. It is very easy to do since many computer programs spit out an ascii output file which can be edited to show anything you want. This allows a check by the reviewer to make sure that doesn't happen.
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
The types of files you're allowed to submit are very limited though.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
Zelgar...you really need to read the whole document...
In 61G15-23.002 (6)...the following statement refers to documents submitted by a licensed professional engineer......
(6) A professional engineer shall not seal original documents made of mylar, linen, sepia or other materials which can be changed by the entity with whom such document(s) are filed unless the professional engineer accompanies such document(s) with a signed and sealed letter making the receiver aware that copies of the original document as designed by the professional engineer have been retained by the professional engineer and that the
professional engineer will not be responsible for any subsequent changes to the reproducible original documents.
Further, in 61G15-23.003.2(d), the statement that I made before is contained therein....as regarding an electronic signature....
the signature shall be:
(d) Linked to a document in such a manner that the electronic signature is invalidated if any data in the document are changed.
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
Plans now take about 3 weeks to get approved.
Three years ago - you could get it done in two days or less??
Go figure!!!!!!!!!!
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
The reviewer would see the issues, comment, and the fix was easily done and resubmitted.
This approach was after having several stupid arguments with reviewers over some minor technicality they were wrong about and that was difficult to resolve.
There are several organizations and reviewers I don't have to pull this nonsense with, but too many are just looking to justify their job.
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
I used to ALWAYS leave off smoke detectors and GFIs ---
Two minute fix and planner did his job and I did mine!!??
RE: Plan reviewer requesting electronic copy of structural design model
We've also reviewed input for long cantilevered columns (poles) that were being analyze by the DAM method. Unfortunately it appeared that this was the first time the engineer had used the method and didn't provide the correct input, such as dividing the pole into many sections and adding small horizontal loads. They thought the program would automatically do all these things without understanding the process. When we asked for the input, their lawyer said that all the engineer had to do was just fill in the blanks. I still have the picture of the pole after it was cut down only 24 hours after erection.
I have another example of bad input and detailing - but that one just ended up with a lot of iron on the ground.
Even had one where the output for the bearing forces on a damaged bridge foundation was stable as long as the tension forces between the bottom of the concrete footing and the sand were glued together. Found that in the output on page 400 something. The bridge was stable but was moving around when a few horses galloped across it. We did salvage the bridge but the original consultant was gone.
Even had one project where we received this super colored output with the maximum forces provided on the graphic. Still having problems with obtaining the drawings that the model was made from.
We're still having trouble with engineers who provide huge finite element analysis but don't provide any connection details or additional documentation.