Future of Engineering
Future of Engineering
(OP)
Hi guys,
First some background: I am just finishing my Bachelor's in Chemical Eng from a university in Ontario and I'd like to ask the long-time engineers here some questions.
I've done some research and concluded that as an EIT we start of with no more than 50 000 a year, which I am perfectly OK with. However, how long, in general, do you think it takes to achieve a salary comparable to other "professional" programs (pharmacy, optometry etc) (i.e. around 100k?) I know it can be done and there are engineers earning even more than this, but if it takes 30 years to achieve, money wont even matter to me as much at 50.
Secondly, what worries me most is the unstable nature of the profession recently. Have you experienced frequent layoffs? How hard has it been to get another job? Do you start at a lower base pay?
Also, would you advise I continue down the path as an engineer? I really do like the work, but I'd like to know what you think. Another important point is the workplace. Are you treated with respect, as I assume an engineer should, or are you having to deal with annoying people :)? Would you have done something else other than engineering, looking in retrospect?
First some background: I am just finishing my Bachelor's in Chemical Eng from a university in Ontario and I'd like to ask the long-time engineers here some questions.
I've done some research and concluded that as an EIT we start of with no more than 50 000 a year, which I am perfectly OK with. However, how long, in general, do you think it takes to achieve a salary comparable to other "professional" programs (pharmacy, optometry etc) (i.e. around 100k?) I know it can be done and there are engineers earning even more than this, but if it takes 30 years to achieve, money wont even matter to me as much at 50.
Secondly, what worries me most is the unstable nature of the profession recently. Have you experienced frequent layoffs? How hard has it been to get another job? Do you start at a lower base pay?
Also, would you advise I continue down the path as an engineer? I really do like the work, but I'd like to know what you think. Another important point is the workplace. Are you treated with respect, as I assume an engineer should, or are you having to deal with annoying people :)? Would you have done something else other than engineering, looking in retrospect?





RE: Future of Engineering
I've never been layed off, no matter how often I volunteer.
No, you shouldn't continue down the path as an engineer, on my say so. I am treated with respect, and I have to deal with annoying people.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Future of Engineering
I'm usually treated with respect but I think every job has times when you have to deal with patronizing idiots! I'm in the UK and although there have been several rounds of layoffs the vast majority of those were voluntary.
If you enjoy doing engineering then give it a go, you'd be miserable if you go into a profession just for the money not because you find the work interesting.
RE: Future of Engineering
If you take the OSPE salary survey data and back-correct it to remove inflation, you see the same basic curve: starting salary is X, salary increases at 10% of X (plus cost of living) per year until year 10 where it reaches 2X. It then stays there until you retire, more or less, unless you "rise" out of engineering into the business realm. That curve hasn't changed in the past 20 years, although it seems to me that X hasn't grown at the rate of inflation over the past 20 years.
The EPCM consulting sector is rife with layoffs. People who work in that sector tend to become tramps, moving from company to company as projects come and go.
It's still possible to have a great career as an engineer- if you're in the top 10% of the crowd, and you make good choices.
But do what you love, and you shouldn't go too far wrong.
RE: Future of Engineering
My salary curve fits well with what Greg and moltenmetal have described. 2X starting somewhere between 5-10 years. A quick internal shuffle around the divsions and I've now topped out at about 4X starting, at 20 years.
I like the mutual respect in engineering. Only a bit of snobbery, but it's quite cool when you realise that all of your colleagues are similarly educated so none of them think you're showing off if you mention something you know. You just need to tone it down if you ever go "home" and your old school friends ask what you've been up to. In my experience (learned very quickly), they don't care if you are travelling around the world, solving complicated engineering problems. I was pressurised by an old friend into telling what I earned. He was shocked - thought it would be at least double that.
- Steve
RE: Future of Engineering
Engineers, by and large, at least in Alberta - certainly in EPC - are not respected or held in any favourable regard whatsoever, by their employers, the public at large, or anyone else. They are seen as irritants and annoyances, because to do what engineers recommend (which is invariably "the right thing") costs money, erodes the employer's profit margins, and prevents clients from "...bending the rules and laws..." to suit their own convenience.
When layoffs come, engineers are the first to be disposed of, and the employers can't wait to push them out the door.
Don't seek validation from others in this business. It isn't forthcoming. You have to really derive your own satisfaction from it, deriving your own pleasure or pride or self-worth from what you put on paper, in writing, on the computer screen, and ultimately in the field. You have to like what you do for its own sake. If you don't have the passion for engineering for its own sake, stay clear of it. It is the most "blue collar" of all "professions", so much so that most are made to feel that they are even subservient to the cleaning staff working the night shift in the building.
That said, in my own case, my salary went from "x" to "8x" in 27 years. You can be successful if you are able to keep your passion for it.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Future of Engineering
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm#earnings
Now, I have to say it's not the number of years, but how you negotiate your salary thru out those years will get you to the upper 25% to 10% of your profession. In other words, do not feel entitled to a higher salary just because you've tacked on the years. You will have to exhibit "why" you deserve the bigger raise and grease (network) the skids so that when your name comes up the higher raise will be in your favor. I did not learn this till 7 years into my career and thus I've did not reach the 100k mark till 5 years later.
Also, don't compare yourself to other professions that require more years of school and demand for that profession. You're not comparing apples to apples. An Engineering BS (or BE) is the highest paid profession for a "bachelor's degree":
http://mo
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: Future of Engineering
It's encouraging to see that an entry level salary will tend to double in around 10 years. I also see the consensus is that layoffs are not that frequent, unless you work in in the EPC/M sector, which I was interested in, due to the design nature of it (process design/plant design). Looks like its not the most stable engineering sector.
I'm interested in something along the lines of pilot plant testing, development, maybe reactor design and R&D. I'm a little unsure of what kind of companies would offer those kinds of services, so far I only know that the pharmaceutical companies do this kind of thing, but the pay tends to be less. Maybe you know something about this line of work.
I'm not so worried about respect, really no profession is respected in Canada except maybe professor or doctor. I guess I was asking more how are you treated by those you are working with.
RE: Future of Engineering
For what you are interested in, the current R&D development work of interest that I am aware of reside in biomass pyrolysis and in recovery of waste bitumen from tailings. You might consider chasing down some university types and some "enviro-fuel type" companies for suiitable opportunities.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Future of Engineering
I've been out of school doing engineering 32 years. 10 US patents (one even issued this year), 6 foreign patents, published papers, awards, electronic products designed from concept to post production support in everything from submarines to the international space station, aircraft, nuclear power plants, consumer products, heavy equipment, etc. It seems like I've done a lot of design in a lot of areas.
BUT - checking glassdoors.com shows that I don't make the average of what a CVS pharmacist would make after 1 to 3 years (what industryL exampled).
ALSO - checking an online inflation calculator using the CPI (consumer price index) as a reference shows that I am making 30% above my starting salary. However, the CPI is re-formulated in just about administration to make the party-in-power look better. If I go to an online inflation calculator that uses an un-fudged stat like the U6 inflation curve (from ShadowStats), I find that my current salary has a buying power only 48% of my out-of-school salary.
I remember in the early 80's when I was only a few years out of school that the Greyhound bus workers were on strike. I recall that a news story showed what the starting salary was for the various positions at Greyhound. The starting salary for the lowest position - a baggage handler - was more than I was making as an engineer with several years experience!
Engineers like to manipulate materials to make things for the good of others. Some other professions tend to manipulate others for the good of themselves. If you like the former over the latter, then Engineering may be for you. And, let's face it. You stay in engineering only if you do indeed love it. And, most of the time I know I do.
As a monetary/debt side note, I will point out that maybe Gold is not inflating, but it's just that the buying power of most currencies is dropping. Since Halloween is just around the corner, you could also go to YouTube and watch "The Secret of Oz" for a really good monetary scare (it's won a number of documentary awards).
RE: Future of Engineering
industryL, your just starting now and will need to grow your experience to gain leverage on garnering higher compensation. The bad news is that it may take 5 years before anybody will take you seriously for a fat raise and promotion. However, you can start now and learn persuasion, presentation, and networking skills not just for work, but also when your evaluation comes and you will have to make a case "why" they should give you a better compensation package (raise/promotion/responsibility). And remember, never ever seem (or feel) entitled to anything.
Some recommended reading:
Power, Influence, and Persuasion by Harvard Business Essentials
The Exceptional Presenter by Koegel
Technical Writing by Rosengerg
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: Future of Engineering
Let's make them fair. Let's take the OP's original comparison: optometry (I'm guess that Ontario uni you went to is UW, as they have one of the few opto programs in Canada). I had two high school classmates who took opto, i.e. they started at the same time as I started 1st year eng. They both transferred into the opto program after two years of general sciense undergrad, and took four years to complete the opto program- same amount of time that it took me to do my co-op undergrad plus my accelerated combined bachelors-masters- if I'd taken the usual Masters route, I'd have been in for on average a year longer.
They were ready to take placements upon graduation, although they, like engineers and all other professions, needed mentored experience under a licensee to gain a license to practice on their own.
To start, they were making TWICE my starting salary.
The upward room for salary growth afterward for an opto is admittedly more limited than the growth of an engineer's, but if they set up a good practice with a dispensory they can pull in a tremendous amount of coin. And unlike dentists, what they do doesn't hurt, so the patients aren't stressed out all the time. Optos don't have a huge suicide rate like dentists. The worst harm they can do is to prescribe some contact lenses that don't quite fit right. And their saddest time of day is when they have to refer someone to the opthomologist so that he can tell them they're going blind. It's a seriously good gig from a dollars earned per investment and risk perspective.
But it would be a TERRIBLE career option for most engineers. It takes a totally different personality type from that needed to succeed in engineering in my opinion.
We educate many times more engineers than our economy needs, and yet we make the universities ever bigger. Accordingly, those that really want to work as engineers, earn less than they probably should. Welcome to the real world.
Do what you love. Don't sell yourself short or let others tell you what you're worth. Figure out what you're making for others and make sure that they know that you know it, too. Do those things and money will matter a whole lot less to you because you'll be having a blast. You also will have enough money to avoid feeling like you've been ripped off.
RE: Future of Engineering
In my first ten years of employment 74-83 inflation in the UK averaged 13.46% in my last ten years it has averaged 3.27%. So a doubling of salary in ten years can be either a good or bad thing.
Certain jobs also seem to have there time, a few years ago estate agents (people who sell houses) were making fantastic money far less so these days, both margins and quantity of work have dropped dramatically, sound familiar?
In short I feel engineering offers a fairly secure income and I enjoy what I do, well most of the time, what price you put on that is down to the individual.
RE: Future of Engineering
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: Future of Engineering
Moltenmetal I never heard of an accelerated masters/bachelors so I guess i'm not from UW, I'm sure you'll get it on your next guess, haha. What is you job like? What do you do, what field of chemical are you in? Also what was your starting job? I'm just wondering what path to take in chemical, it's broader than I thought, for example EPC doesn't sound very good even though it's interesting.
Thanks
RE: Future of Engineering
I have no insight into the current compensation of Chemical Engineers. Each of the Engineering discipline has ups-and-downs over time as a major program is finished/cancelled (Apollo, SST, Shuttle), or as oil prices boom or bust, or as technology booms, or as manufacturing moves offshore. I used to think that Civil engineers were mostly immune to such things, but the present recessions has hit them hard. Such things might greatly affect your compensation over your career.
However industryL, a large part of engineering school is not the knowledge and calculations you do the pass the teachers tests, but is: Learning how to solve problems for which you initially have no knowledge, and, Learning how to learn, and, How to determine exactly what kind of new knowledge you need to tackle a new problem. If you like learning new things, figuring out how things work, and like the satisfaction from seeing what you had to figure out becoming reality, then engineering is for you.
As to your other question from your original post: Every workplace is different regardless of whatever kind of work you are doing. Even a janitor will find a workplace in which he will be treated with dignity and ones where he will not. The same is true in engineering. Such things are sometimes almost impossible to determine when you interview at a company. Frequently you don't know if it will be a good environment or bad environment for several weeks after you start a job. This is why the skills you pick up in school are doubly important - you always need to be constantly learning because good engineering skills will also translate into the ability to get out of a bad environment or situation to find a good one should it be necessary during your career.
RE: Future of Engineering
This is a given. However, as said above, do what you love. Don't do it for the money. If money is all you care about then get a bunch of grad engineering degrees and your cap is not around 100K it usually goes up to 150-300K. Mind you, i'm talking about research here and engineering professor positions as well.
Money can be obtained by other means, if you are really hungry. For instance, the housing market in the GTA right now is nuts. You can make a killing simply buying and selling...
Fe
RE: Future of Engineering
Fifty or sixty years ago here, the average engineer made about the same as the average doctor, about 30% more than the average lawyer, and about 50% more than the average accountant. Now, the other three have left us in the dirt, and we're having a hard time keeping pace with the (unionized) Ontario teachers- especially once you figure in their defined-benefit pension plan. Not that I feel the teachers should earn less, mind you.
Can you make $100k? You're assured of that given your age. Adjusting for inflation, the averages say you'll be earning more than $100k unless you make bad choices or the economy goes completely in the sh*tter.
By the way IndustryL, I work in exactly the sort of field you'd be interested in- but we hire almost exclusively from amongst our previous co-op students, so you're out of luck. Most of the process development work you're interested in does not happen in Canada any more- it left in the 1980s and isn't coming back.
You can make a life for yourself here in an EPC, but I don't recommend going there right after graduation (better there than no job, but not an ideal first job). You need your commonsense calibrated a bit by exposure to the real world before you end up in the land of the "stationery" engineers (i.e. the ones whose product is paper drawings and specifications etc.).
RE: Future of Engineering
"...Mamas, don't let your Babies grow up to be Civils..."
My wife has a masters degree from Stanford and still doesn't make six figures at age 35, and likely won't for at least age 40 or 45. I'm working for myself now, so I'm a difficult gauge. Nobody makes any "real" money in Civil Engineering until they quit Civil and start working in a related less technical field closer to the money, because Civil is commoditized and we drive each other's margins down in competition. Other engineering fields are more like medicine, in that people don't push all their services to the lowest bidder, so those pay better.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Future of Engineering
From the 2010 OSPE salary survey, the very top eschelon of engineers (Experience level F- 20-30 yrs from graduation, multiple advanced degrees or senior management) had an average salary $136,000, and average total cash compensation of $153,000. The high decile was $169,000 total cash. That compares with a starting salary average of about $57k (probably closer to $55k as the lowest experience range is 0-2 yrs after grad).
Advanced degrees do add a bit of earning potential, but not as much as you imply. In fact, on a net present value basis given a reasonable ROI expectation, the increase is not enough to pay back the lost income from extending your stay as a student. That's for engineers, mind. If the extra degree is an MBA which gets you out of engineering into the "business" world, the pay gets as wonky and unpredictable as the values those folks seem to have.
RE: Future of Engineering
In the lsat survey I saw things had balanced out a bit, in fact I think a Masters was the sweet spot, if you ignore opportunity cost and tuition.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Future of Engineering
That being said, for the OP, the good engineers don't become engineers for the money, particularly the ones with graduate degrees, as is evident if you do a ROI like molten mentioned.
Simply, do it b/c you want to, you will be paid at least decently if not more.
Fe
RE: Future of Engineering
RE: Future of Engineering
- Steve
RE: Future of Engineering
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Future of Engineering
The $CDN hit its low before we got our fiscal sh*t together and started running Federal budget surpluses in the billions year after year. Before Paul Martin was finance minister, we were perhaps five years away from being a much colder version of Greece. We're deep back into deficits again as a result of so-called "stimulus spending"- ironically under a so-called "conservative" government.
Our improved fiscal situation got us to about $0.80. The rise in materials and energy prices is what drove us above parity, and the excessive and continuous use of certain American printing presses has kept us hovering around there. The Loonie is now considered a so-called "petro-dollar".
Our banks were the only ones in the G7 that didn't need to be bailed out by a national government in 2008, but for some reason our dollar fell during that period as people ran to the "stability" of the $US. I'm more and more convinced that global finances, currency and market movements make absolutely no sense except a fairly long time after the fact, and that a Tobin tax is a very, very good idea long overdue to stop the speculation from introducing artificial instability into the works.
RE: Future of Engineering
1. learning never stops, you have to keep adding to your knowledge, in the office and field. if you think you are repeating and got nothing new to learn at a position then leave.
2. no matter how silly you may think they are but all courses in college are valuable try to get as much as you can.
3. find a mentor.
4. "stay hungry, stay foolish" s. jobs.
5. money will follow.
Ozgur Selmanpakoglu, PE
Greater New York Area
www.ozgurengineering.com