Lethal Service - Carcinogen
Lethal Service - Carcinogen
(OP)
We have a new vesssel to design. The vessel Contents are deemed to be "highly carcinogenic, which have the ability to penetrate the skn causing serious harm".
Does my vessel fall under UW-2?
Tks
J
Does my vessel fall under UW-2?
Tks
J





RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
Things that kill you slowly are often dealt with through double containment and such.
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Plymouth Tube
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
Vinyl Chloride?
That's the first thought that comes to my mind when the term "highly carcinogenic" is mentioned.
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
Again and again we begin another magical dance....trying to answer the eternal question....do I have "leathal service" as defined by ASME.
I have maintained for many years that the ASME methods are an unnecessary and bizarre Kabuki dance of subjectivity that the plant owner is supposed to perform. Invariably, he will ask the consulting engineer what to do..
A list of certain lethal chemical should be developed by the EPA for everryone's benefit.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=198830
My opinion only......
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
If the EPA gets involved, there will be problems with concentration. "2 ppm, this vessel should have been lethal service rated." When, in reality, 2ppm may exist in river water.
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
Benzene is a known carcinogen, and we keep it in 1-gallon tin cans. Cancinogen does not equal Lethal Service.
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
You miss the point....... a complex guideline that relies on research and subjectivity IS NO GUIDELINE !!!!
The ASME VIII guideline to determine what is lethal is subjective and way, way too complicated !!! (My opinion)
Can we simply agree that, for example, ASME vessels containing deadly 100% Phosgene Gas are "lethal service" regarding ASME vessel design ...????
How about 20 or 30 of the other major "bad boys" ????
Can the EPA simply make a list of the really,really bad, commercially traded chemicals and, by fiat, proclaim these as "lethal chemicals" ????? If not, why not ?
The poor contract vessel design engineer and the 23 year old newbie engineer should not be doing a research project everytime
a design spec is written.
My opinion only
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
I would include chlorine and phosgene gas in a list of chemicals where ASME designed vessels (over a certain volume) must be designed to leathal service requirements.
Why can't this be made more simple ????
The EPA already has developed a list of the bad actors (SARA EPCRA Chemical reporting List) complete with CAS numbers.
http://www.ehs.indiana.edu/sara/tpq.html
Why can't we simply take the worst of the worst (say, any chemical with a reportable quantity of 10 lbs or less) and, BY FIAT, proclaim these as requiring an ASME "leathal service" design for any vessel ?
BTW, ASME B31.3 has a category M for certain chemicals.... the same approach could be used for piping system designation
Other approaches are possible.....but the system should be made simpler.
I wonder how this question is answered in othe parts of the world ?
My opinion only
This wou
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
On the side topic of whether "somebody" should define what constitutes "lethal service," I'm not in favor of the government dictating what is, or is not, lethal service. I've seen too many cases where one person, usually not on a technical level, rams through something that doesn't make sense and everyone else ends up paying for it.
Patricia Lougheed
******
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RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
I don't like the govenment either.....
However, we still have to have SOMEONE go through a determination about if a particular chemical must be contained in a vessel designed for ASME "leathal service".
The 23 year old client newbie assigns this task to the vessel designer in the purchase specification. (I have seen this many times)
The vessel designer finds that he must now become a deadly chemical expert.
The MBA/PMP wants to know when it will be done.....
vpl, what other suggestions do you have to improve this problem ?
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
Seems nobody has the definitive answer... Maybe ASME might sort it out in the next addition.
Thanks for all the post thou.
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
Regards,
Mike
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
When you put some actual numbers into this equation, you will probably find that the fairly substantial increase in cost to go to the extra-high reliability welded joints of Lethal Service is justified when balanced by the lifespan of the vessel and the $$ millions, if not $$ billions if a release gets to any unprotected people.
The only reason Union Carbide survived Bophal, India was that the cost of life was in the $1,000's there, not $$millions.
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
I agree with the already posted solutions about (1) bouncing it back to the ultimate client or (2) designing conservatively.
For a permanent solution, in my industry, this would be handled through either an industry group or the technical society.
I can't say I don't like the government -- after all, I've worked for the US government my entire working career. There are a lot of very good, very sharp folks in my agency (not necessarily including me
Patricia Lougheed
******
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
vpl, easy on the self-deprication. "It ain't arrogance if you are really that good".
And ALL Nuke-Pukes are only as good as their last 1 or 2 mistakes. There's a LOT of horsepower on this blog, and I havn't seen anybody find an "oops" with your name on it.
RE: Lethal Service - Carcinogen
Too many MBAs on these fora
The Europeans have lists of dangerous/lethal substances and it is not up to the newbie hardware purchaser or vessel designer to play bio-chemist. Plant Management, as we all know, will delegate difficult and costly decisions downward......
Lets just stick with the nightmare ASME methodology we have now...