Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
(OP)
...and once again, I've pretty much already made up my mind but it can't hurt to get others' opinions.
Also I am once again debating choices that don't officially exist yet, but I may need to made a decision about one possibility before the other possibility is ready to make a decision about me.
So here goes.
A. Lower-level management in a regional office of a consulting firm. I am told about 1/3 of the projects will require my engineering expertise; for the rest it will be primarily personnel and resource management. I am not sure what that translates into in terms of % of time spent on technical matters. I didn't look very seriously into this sort of position during my last job search because most of what I'd seen them do was more admin/management and less engineering, but my contact assures me it's not all like that and there will be plenty engineering to keep me happy as long as I am willing put up with the projects that are just admin.
It is in a city I do not like, with possibility of being able to wrangle my way to a city I like better over the next few years, or maybe wrangle my way to a remote, like my predecessor is currently doing. I am being recruited by someone who will be moving up in the firm and is looking for his replacement.
Those who have memorized every line of my saga till now will find some things familiar. Being recruited by my future predecessor--part of the reason I'm on the job market now is because my previous predecessor ended up never stepping aside to let me do his job. Also I took the last job in a place I didn't like with the idea that in a few years I could wrangle my way to a remote, and all that ended up meaning was I had a miserable job without even quality of non-work life to make up for it. (This place would be better than the last place but that's not saying much.) I am also leery because there are aspects of this job, on the business/management side, that I have never done and don't know if I'd be any good at it, and I really can't afford another failure. And, finally, the company has recently been acquired by another (which is part of why my potential predecessor is moving up). Part of the problem last time was the company "in transition" and the battle between old guard and new guard. I am being told now that nothing of the sort is going on this time around, and while I don't think I'm being lied to, maybe my contact doesn't know what's coming either. (Then again, last time my contact was also someone I'd known for a long time and trusted, and he turned out to be a conniving bastard. This time I've known the contact not as long, though I've had closer dealings.)
But it should pay well, and I will like a lot of it. I am told I will be able to, over time, shape the position to match my skills and interests. But that will require feeling enough confidence to make demands, and after my last job my confidence is shaken and there will be enough unfamiliar territory in this job that I will probably have plenty of insecurity to hamper me. Also I would not be directly reporting to my predecessor so who knows how much of what he's saying would stay true. Also I have a different specialization than my predecessor, so if people out of habit come to me with the same kind of questions they used to take to him, I will fall flat on my face. Presumably the change in specialization would be addressed in some way, but I'm feeling paranoid.
I am scheduled for an interview next week to meet everyone else in the office; the guy recruiting me says it's his call, and he's not really looking at anyone else very seriously, and it comes down to whether I'd be a good fit with the other folks. Which is definitely no guarantee. Also who knows what other wonderful candidates he has turned up in the meantime. So I'm taking nothing for granted, but it's a definite possibility.
B. Consulting (via Small Independent Company I know) to another company I know in Foreign Country I Like. The job would be stuff I've done before, all technical, no management (maybe a tiny bit of supervision but probably not). Foreign Company's client, where the occasional visit would probably be required, especially toward the end of the project, would be in City I Like. And the project is cool.
You can probably tell by now which way I'm leaning, emotionally. But my guess is it pays a lot less. And although I have been dying to go back to Foreign Country I Like, and it would be just about the right duration (a year), it certainly isn't getting me any closer to the whole reason I left my first long-term job, which is to get back to my home geographical region and settle down. (Though neither does Option A.) Also, although I'd be salaried, I'd be subject to layoff at the close of the project. I'm told by Small Independent Company there would be other projects, and Small Independent Company seems interested in keeping me on beyond the duration of this job (even though they did not try to recruit me the last time I was on the market, a year ago).
Another potential pitfall is that the owner of Small Independent Company can be difficult (mostly because of poor social skills rather than outright malice but sometimes I have to remind myself of that distinction). Other current employees seem to be happy, and I have a history of getting along better with said owner than many others have, and my role would be relatively independent, but ya never know.
I guess it comes down to how much pay and security I'd be willing to give up to do something way cool. And how much I value globetrotting vs. settling down like a grownup. I was starting to feel the toll of relative social isolation in my first job, which is why I wanted to come "home", and this certainly won't help me there.
Option B is not formalized (Small Independent Company seems all for it, Foreign Company is very interested), but once agreement is made they want to hit the ground running--I would barely have time to put my affairs in order. They may not be willing to wait till I hear whether I'd have Option A, so I may not have the opportunity to truly weigh two complete options. (I'm hoping I can get tentative salary info from A around the time of the interview so I can at least be able to compare the finances.) Also, Option B, because of the foreign move and tight timetable, means I'd have to give up a bunch of things I was planning to do over the next couple of months. And if the whole thing goes bad (and after my last experience I expect everything to go bad) I will have given up all those things in addition to whatever other job opportunities I may have, for nothing. (As opposed to Option A, where I will have given up other job opportunities but without giving up the other stuff on top of it.)
If Option A goes the best possible way, eventually I will be like one of their other tech-only people only with better social skills and thus more (and better) client interaction, and will have moved to City In Target Area. If Option B goes the best possible way, it will eventually transition to my being able to pick and choose a better balance of travel vs. home, and maybe a gateway to completely independent consulting (which I'm not prepared for now but always figured I'd do eventually).
So...what am I failing to think of?
sleepless OJD
Also I am once again debating choices that don't officially exist yet, but I may need to made a decision about one possibility before the other possibility is ready to make a decision about me.
So here goes.
A. Lower-level management in a regional office of a consulting firm. I am told about 1/3 of the projects will require my engineering expertise; for the rest it will be primarily personnel and resource management. I am not sure what that translates into in terms of % of time spent on technical matters. I didn't look very seriously into this sort of position during my last job search because most of what I'd seen them do was more admin/management and less engineering, but my contact assures me it's not all like that and there will be plenty engineering to keep me happy as long as I am willing put up with the projects that are just admin.
It is in a city I do not like, with possibility of being able to wrangle my way to a city I like better over the next few years, or maybe wrangle my way to a remote, like my predecessor is currently doing. I am being recruited by someone who will be moving up in the firm and is looking for his replacement.
Those who have memorized every line of my saga till now will find some things familiar. Being recruited by my future predecessor--part of the reason I'm on the job market now is because my previous predecessor ended up never stepping aside to let me do his job. Also I took the last job in a place I didn't like with the idea that in a few years I could wrangle my way to a remote, and all that ended up meaning was I had a miserable job without even quality of non-work life to make up for it. (This place would be better than the last place but that's not saying much.) I am also leery because there are aspects of this job, on the business/management side, that I have never done and don't know if I'd be any good at it, and I really can't afford another failure. And, finally, the company has recently been acquired by another (which is part of why my potential predecessor is moving up). Part of the problem last time was the company "in transition" and the battle between old guard and new guard. I am being told now that nothing of the sort is going on this time around, and while I don't think I'm being lied to, maybe my contact doesn't know what's coming either. (Then again, last time my contact was also someone I'd known for a long time and trusted, and he turned out to be a conniving bastard. This time I've known the contact not as long, though I've had closer dealings.)
But it should pay well, and I will like a lot of it. I am told I will be able to, over time, shape the position to match my skills and interests. But that will require feeling enough confidence to make demands, and after my last job my confidence is shaken and there will be enough unfamiliar territory in this job that I will probably have plenty of insecurity to hamper me. Also I would not be directly reporting to my predecessor so who knows how much of what he's saying would stay true. Also I have a different specialization than my predecessor, so if people out of habit come to me with the same kind of questions they used to take to him, I will fall flat on my face. Presumably the change in specialization would be addressed in some way, but I'm feeling paranoid.
I am scheduled for an interview next week to meet everyone else in the office; the guy recruiting me says it's his call, and he's not really looking at anyone else very seriously, and it comes down to whether I'd be a good fit with the other folks. Which is definitely no guarantee. Also who knows what other wonderful candidates he has turned up in the meantime. So I'm taking nothing for granted, but it's a definite possibility.
B. Consulting (via Small Independent Company I know) to another company I know in Foreign Country I Like. The job would be stuff I've done before, all technical, no management (maybe a tiny bit of supervision but probably not). Foreign Company's client, where the occasional visit would probably be required, especially toward the end of the project, would be in City I Like. And the project is cool.
You can probably tell by now which way I'm leaning, emotionally. But my guess is it pays a lot less. And although I have been dying to go back to Foreign Country I Like, and it would be just about the right duration (a year), it certainly isn't getting me any closer to the whole reason I left my first long-term job, which is to get back to my home geographical region and settle down. (Though neither does Option A.) Also, although I'd be salaried, I'd be subject to layoff at the close of the project. I'm told by Small Independent Company there would be other projects, and Small Independent Company seems interested in keeping me on beyond the duration of this job (even though they did not try to recruit me the last time I was on the market, a year ago).
Another potential pitfall is that the owner of Small Independent Company can be difficult (mostly because of poor social skills rather than outright malice but sometimes I have to remind myself of that distinction). Other current employees seem to be happy, and I have a history of getting along better with said owner than many others have, and my role would be relatively independent, but ya never know.
I guess it comes down to how much pay and security I'd be willing to give up to do something way cool. And how much I value globetrotting vs. settling down like a grownup. I was starting to feel the toll of relative social isolation in my first job, which is why I wanted to come "home", and this certainly won't help me there.
Option B is not formalized (Small Independent Company seems all for it, Foreign Company is very interested), but once agreement is made they want to hit the ground running--I would barely have time to put my affairs in order. They may not be willing to wait till I hear whether I'd have Option A, so I may not have the opportunity to truly weigh two complete options. (I'm hoping I can get tentative salary info from A around the time of the interview so I can at least be able to compare the finances.) Also, Option B, because of the foreign move and tight timetable, means I'd have to give up a bunch of things I was planning to do over the next couple of months. And if the whole thing goes bad (and after my last experience I expect everything to go bad) I will have given up all those things in addition to whatever other job opportunities I may have, for nothing. (As opposed to Option A, where I will have given up other job opportunities but without giving up the other stuff on top of it.)
If Option A goes the best possible way, eventually I will be like one of their other tech-only people only with better social skills and thus more (and better) client interaction, and will have moved to City In Target Area. If Option B goes the best possible way, it will eventually transition to my being able to pick and choose a better balance of travel vs. home, and maybe a gateway to completely independent consulting (which I'm not prepared for now but always figured I'd do eventually).
So...what am I failing to think of?
sleepless OJD





RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Which is likely to grow more, engineering or admin?
Look for an option C.
Option C, the job you really should take, is as yet unknown but you'll know you have it when you don't need to post.
But if you are faced with either A or B but not staying where you are, then in the absence of a C at the moment, the B is good because when it comes to apply for C you have a good excuse for leaving B.
I'm assuming you have a good grasp of what option C will look like. Presumably this will be well paid, lots of engineering and in your home region.
I also assume you have a good idea of which companies within the home region are likely to be able to provide and option C and you are networking via whatever channels you have open with people in Potential C companies.
Short of that, I can't offer anything on your choices.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
1)make a decision
2)write concisely
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
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RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
jmw is right in that they seldom tell you the truth. I've seen that multiple times in my 22 years of this work. Many don't tell the truth because they're afraid they won't get anyone, if they do. I interviewed for a position recently and asked why the position was open. I knew the reason the former engineer left because of mutual contacts. I was disappointed with the answer. There was a disconnect somewhere.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
It amounts to doing something you'd very much rather not do, for money.
What does that make you?
If Foreign City You Like is not currently under attack, you should be on a plane tonight.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
I write this kind of stuff when it keeps me up at night and I'm not sleeping anyway. I suck at life decisions for myself. Technical and other such within-job decisions are a whole lot easier.
Option C...well, the above-described best possible outcome of Option A is not too far from Option C. If I can get there. Alternatively, I create Option C for myself, and Option B is probably a better springboard for that. Or so I tell myself.
Just like a year ago, I shouldn't be bitching. I have a lot of really good prospects, In This Economy. I whine because none of them are ideal and I need to pick and choose my compromise. Like an adult or something.
Sniveling OJD
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Stop your sniveling, too. Women don't like or want a sniveling man.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Men shouldn't enjoy sniveling women.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Option B still churning; Option A interview tomorrow.
Options D-Z in the offing. All of them are in the category of "job I would take while continuing to look for something else", most because of geographical/lifestyle concerns. ("I left Cool City last year for this??")
Unless Option B has insultingly low pay, I think I'd take it if it came through. But unless my interview goes really badly (not an impossibility), I'd expect some hard sell from Option A and I'll be back to sniveling.
Wanna talk about what doing what I'd rather not do for more money makes me? This is Option D: Live in City I Dislike Far Less Than Option B City, but spend most of time in Godawful Place working terrible hours doing stuff that is technical but kind of mindnumbing (stuff I used to fob off on my assistant two jobs ago). I'm told (by the guy quitting this job because he's tired of spending all his time in Godawful Place instead of with his family) that I can walk in the door tomorrow for about the same money I was getting in executive management. Trying to work out in my head how desperate I'd need to be vs. how long this particular door will be open. On the plus side, no one lasts long in that job and I could walk away guilt-free. On the minus side, it's hard to keep up a job hunt while working that kind of job.
Life has just been going downhill since kindergarten, I tells yez. Can't wait till retirement, just another 30 years or so.
OJD
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Talk to them about this at the interview. They must soon get fed up with replacing people if it is as bad as you say. HR may be worth talking to on this as well.
High turnover rates are expensive.
Not just recruiting costs (agencies, management and HR time etc.) but new hires take some time to settle in and do the job right. If, as soon as they can do the job right they are already looking to move on it means they have to look at the job and look for ways to make it more durable.
If they don't you may have to ask what sort of management they are and if, even if you can do the job and stick it, you will want to move on for other reasons.
On the other hand, if the people who do this job then move on internally it is a better deal. It has career progression.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Don't wait out the end, it's an incredible waste.
Do something you enjoy. Live right, kick the bad perspective. Maybe watch 'Joe vs. the Volcano'. I found surfing for the first time incredibly empowering. Viewing and participating in the wave & current interactions of the surf zone was amazing, if a bit dangerous.
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
For one, you may not be physically able by then, thanks to advancing decrepitude. Once you have passed the age at which you should have reproduced, natural selection is no longer working with you. You can easily figure out how I know this.
Don't waste another minute doing anything but following your passion.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
So...as long as I'm here...Upon further discussion with my main contact, Option A is looking like a better fit than I thought it would be, though there's no getting around the geographic aspect, which truly sucks. (Interview tomorrow with other people at the company; we'll see if anyone other than my contact is at all impressed.) Option B through Small Consulting Company may be fading out but Option B may still be accessible through other contacts.
My Option A contact says if I have a shot at Option B, I should take it--in fact he gave me one of the other contacts. (We met in connection with Foreign Company, so he knows the situation.) I am choosing not to see this as him changing his mind about me as a candidate within his firm but rather an opinion offered from someone who knows me well. So I may not need to snivel after all if Option B comes around. If it doesn't, I make no snivel-related promises.
OJD
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
I figured it out. You live in Florida, Gods waiting room.
OJD,
I'm sitting at the desk of an option B job right now. Less pay yet more fulfilling, couldn't be happier with my choice.
Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
I would do what I think is best for me and within God's will. I've turned down jobs because of location. I want to attend a Southern Baptist Church and those aren't everywhere. Being single and no kids, I want a somewhat urban area to have a social life of sorts. As a woman, it's easy to get left out, if you're surrounded by married people. It's understandable and part of life.
I also have no desire to live in a super-depressed area of the country or a high population density city.
MikeHalloran made some excellent points.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
I am also recently realizing the double-edged sword of a substantial network. I know a lot of people, but they all know each other too. I work in a small world. I don't really want to step out of it, because I like it, but it is small. And just about any Option X I talk to, there's someone else telling me something bad about Party X--and in some cases offering to be Option Y instead, lather, rinse, repeat. And considering my recent experience, I am afraid to discount anyone's complaints about anyone else. The job I just departed from was Option A a year ago; last year's Option B is now saying "I told you so" (which they did, even though they didn't make me an offer at the time) and is also telling others they told me so. This year's Option E and Option A are telling me about the troubles they've had with each other. No matter who I go with, there will be someone to say "I told you so". Reason to disregard all the warnings? Not hardly.
I get the impression that normal engineers pick jobs out from websites, send in a bunch of resumes, get some interviews, get some offers, compare terms, and select, without dealing with weird cross-party interaction factors.
OJD
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
I base my decision upon the people I interview with and those I will be working with/for. There's little else you can do, other than maybe a Google search for rumors/gossip (and you have to take that stuff with a huge grain of salt). If you get a bad feeling during the interview, your gut feeling shouldn't be ignored.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Oliver J. Dragon whines at length about job choices again
Here's an ugly truth about today's job market:
Unless a company is expanding, which is _extremely_ unusual today, any job you can find is 'broken' in some way. I.e., chances are the last incumbent was fired, or quit in disgust. It's helpful to know which, so ask. ... but don't expect a straight answer. ... observe what's _not_ said.
One advantage of working in an industry where everybody knows everybody or knows somebody who does, is that you can (eventually) collect enough rumor/information to form an assessment of any given company's culture. Of course, the view from outside is way different, but some information is better than none.
Choose the devil you can deal with.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA