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Ethics training

Ethics training

Ethics training

(OP)
Completed mine yesterday.  Almost as much fun as going to the dentist.

I can't help wondering if it should only be required that the top levels of management take this sort of thing.

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

Management? Ethics?
Ha!
That's an oxymoron isn't it?

If it was like going to the dentist for you, it would probably be like attending a 3 day Kingdom Hall revival meeting for them (and they'd learn they are all eternally damned, but they probably knew that anyway.)

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Ethics training

(OP)
I'm not going to swear or be contraversial in this forum, but...

I have 10 'O' Levels
I have 5 'A' Levels
I have a degree from a good place
I am a husband
I am a father
I am a homeowner
I am not stupid or greedy
I haven't smoked pot for quite a few years

Why does HR need to teach me about not touching people at work.  Or not gossiping.  Or giving away client confidential info.  I'm not normally riled by the stupidity of management, but I am now.  I wonder if it only happens in public companies, or if it's equally bad in privately owned ones.

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

Ethics training is aimed at the lowest level of employee and then forced to be seen by all levels once a year to 'remind' us. There is so much that can be said in ethics training that is comon sense to the normal person. These training refreshers are aimed at the 4% who don't have ethics in their system.
 

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: Ethics training

(OP)
One question that didn't come up was:

"A colleague invites you into the vehicle test cell to see something on the CCTV.  After a few seconds it gradually becomes apparent that it is horse and a lady.  What do you do?"

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

"Why does HR need to teach me about not touching people at work.  Or not gossiping.  Or giving away client confidential info."

Umm, probably because there are a stunning number of people who don't understand that, and it's not easy to tell who they are from a distance, so everybody gets run through the 'how to be someone with half a clue' courses.

 

RE: Ethics training

Answer:  If it's a live feed from a security camera, you ask him to make sure the DVR is getting it, then post it on YouTube.  If it involves the boss, or a female related to the boss, you get another job, then post it on YouTube.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Ethics training

(OP)
This scenario (horse/lady video) did happen to me once at work, not making it up.  Very odd.  Very unexpected.

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

Are the horse and the lady fiddling the books or something, else how is that really 'ethics' as such?

Are equestrian events really frowned upon that much by the automotive sector these days?  I mean 100+ years ago they were the competition but I would have thought automotive could have been gracious over that victory for some time now.

We had to have 'sexual harassment training' a few years back.  Lots of us joked about 'oh good, they're going to teach us how to sexually harass properly I was worried I wasn't up to par' - one really would think it should be 'sexual harassment prevention training'.

The worst was some of the training I had to  

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RE: Ethics training

Or you get a promotion and a pay rise and increased job security for so long as you or your partners in this crime have the only copies for not posting it on YouTube.

Seriously, how do you teach ethics. In my experience, people already know it by mid teens or they never get it. The clever ones who never get it make excuses for not getting it, like that's shrewd business and anyone who does not do it are naive. The dumb ones who never get it end up in jail.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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RE: Ethics training

(OP)
Serious answer:

They show you a load of typical work-place scenarios and then ask what you would do.  Then you get some preachy crap about why your answer is right, once you've tried all the options until you get the right one.  A half hour of nonsense to fill in a check box on some corporate spreadsheet.

It's not even legally binding as far as I can tell, so I could wake up one morning and decide to be unethical.

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

I think it reflects poorly on management and HR, like saying "we never considered ethics when we hired you, and we think there is a high enough probability that we exercised very poor judgment and brought on a bunch of unethical swine."

RE: Ethics training

(OP)
That video was a long time ago (c. 1994), but it has scarred me for life.  Maybe I could sue??

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

Quote:

These training refreshers are aimed at the 4% who don't have ethics in their system.
I think Pat has already got there.
If these people don't have any ethics to begin with, they will be unaffected by such ethics training.

This is probably simply an HR exercise so HR can distance themselves from any "incidents" by saying that everyone knows what is expected.
Let's face it, HR need to be seen to be doing something management think is useful, not that anyone believes HR are much use for anything at all, except protecting management.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Ethics training

Was that the episode of "Mr. Ed" that never got aired? I always wondered why Wilbur didn't get married.

RE: Ethics training

Years ago, our parent company (but not the one you see in my signature today) held a series of management classes one of with covered 'ethics'.  Now these were not professionally organized classes but rather something put together by our executive management.

I was working in sales back then and so our sales VP was responsible for getting material and guest speakers and so on, so he thought, what could be better than inviting the corporation's chief consul to talk about ethical behavior.  However, I don't think the VP was expecting what it was that he got.  While the corporate attorney did spend time talking about the role that the legal department played in the corporation (note that we were part of a Fortune 500 company so this covered a lot of territory) and how as employees, particular managers in a sales organization that dealt with not only internal but also external relationships and opportunities, how we needed to be aware of the many legal issues that we might encounter and how his organization could help us.

However, it was when the discussion finally came around to 'ethics' that he sort of stunned at least our executive team.  It was when he said that lawyers should never be expected to be experts on ethics that was when the wheels came off.  He followed up by explaining that in a purely professional situation, ethics was 'outside' their area of responsibility.  They are responsible for what's legal or not, which can be very different from what is considered to be ethical or not.  Now he did admit that if one followed a strict code of ethics, one which was generally accepted by a large segment of the population that you would probably never need to worry too much about his people having to come and bail you out of some mess.  However, he did explain that if we took the opposite extreme and did only which could be defended in court as being legal, that this would NOT automatically make you appear to having acted in an 'ethical' manner.  In other words, just because something is LEGAL does not automatically make it ETHICAL in the minds of everyone concerned.

Anyway, it turned out to be one of the best 'classes' I ever took since we were able to really get into a discussion which forced us to look at things differently, so perhaps in the end maybe it was a good idea that we got to take this up with our chief consul as he was ready to dispel the misunderstanding of the relationship between ethics and the law.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Ethics training

If it makes you feel any better, this garbage (the ethics training, not the horse and lady) has infiltrated the public ranks of professional engineering.  To renew my P.E. I have to have 8 hours of ethics training every two years.  Luckily they don't specify what constitutes "ethics training" so I can attend legal seminar's (one put on by the P.E. Board was really interesting, and the instructor said that he was the reviewer and would accept this class for the requirement) that look interesting.

When I worked for a big company I had an individual working for me that was the "coach" for "Partners in the Workplace" which was Femi-nazi propaganda that everyone was required to attend.  Basically her course said that everyone had to be respectful of the needs of women, but that women were only obligated to be respectful of the needs of women.  This person caused 95% of the problems in the team and did 5% of the work assigned to her.  When I tried to fire her for non-performance (with a ton of documentation, warning letters, etc.) she went to my bosses boss with her lawyer (a woman oddly enough) and I was told to back off or I'd be the one fired.  I will always despise single-issue people.

David

RE: Ethics training

(OP)
So those sores haven't healed yet then!

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

(OP)
My thread, my call.

Various people have left the company I work for.  And some of them contact me as if we were still colleagues.  What should I do?  I like them, we had beers on many (often regular) occasions, but it is hard to know.  One or two (four actually, at last count) are now customers.  We have work stuff in common mainly.  Difficult.

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

Sompting are you asking about Zdas or the lady with the equine?

Sorry, I'll get my coat.

From a legal point of view I get the vague requirement to show your company has addressed ethics and related issues so that when a middle manager abuses his 'authority' over his secretary or the CFO fiddles her accounting.... then their ass is at least partially covered.  However, I'm pretty sure great long training sessions can't be the most effective approach.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Ethics training

(OP)
KENAT,

As I asked of our female administrator only yesterday.

"How on earth can all that go into there?"

So now you now.

Search "so no we know" + "mitchell and webb" on utube.

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

"I always wondered why Wilbur didn't get married. "

mauricestoker:

Wilbur was married to Carol; you're probably meant to say I wonder why they never had children.  The strange thing about the show was why an architect of all people would have his office in a stable.

Ethics training, SMART Goals, quality management (which comes down to knowing how to fill out forms), Women's Councils, wellness coaches, and all this other nonsense are all signs that we're headed deeper into barbarism.

As a society, we have so much knowledge but so little wisdom.

 

RE: Ethics training

Where I work, after you take your ethics training, you then go to a company website, and "acknowledge" you took the training.

I wonder how many people "acknowledge" without taking the training.

RE: Ethics training

(OP)
Our training ends with the option to print off a certificate with your name on it.  Takes pride of place on my cube wall now.  Right next to the last one.

- Steve
 

RE: Ethics training

As others have alluded, ethics can't be taught ... you either have them or you don't.

The 'training' is a CYA for HR and the company.

RE: Ethics training

"As others have alluded, ethics can't be taught ... you either have them or you don't."

Fortunately that's not true, but it is difficult to change what was learnt in childhood.

RE: Ethics training

Can we force ethics training on politicians?  They need it and Mr. Ed.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Ethics training

Bridgebuster,

Thank you for the correction. Memory fails after a few decades. I'll have to do some research on Hulu to catch up on my literary shortfalls.

As you have apparently been doing your research, I have a question you might be able to answer (besides Mary Ann vs. Ginger)to settle a bet:

Was that Larry Bird as a child star playing the banjo on "Deliverance"?

RE: Ethics training

Thanks IR for clearing up the Larry Bird issue.

mauricestoker - I've only seen Deliverance once and never would have been able to recall the what the banjo player looked like. I do remember that Studebaker was the sponsor of Mr. Ed.

RE: Ethics training

My experience is those that espouse "good ethics" and live the "virtuous" ideal are often those who would be the first in line to stab you in the back.

RE: Ethics training

MiketheEngineer, that's not been my experience.  The good guys are generally the good guys and the bad guys are generally the bad guys.  However, I have worked with some wolves in sheep's clothing.  They've made me double up on my observations before trusting them much at all.  I've also learned managers who pay attention and are good themselves know who they are.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Ethics training

It's a mistake to equate ethics with virtue or morality.  Ethics (in this context) is about acceptable conduct, no more, no less.

Virtuous people do not need to be told about ethics, but one can not measure or enforce virtue.  The nature of humanity is such that a line needs to be drawn.

RE: Ethics training

Lacajun -

I don't disagree with you.  But if someone has to spend an inordinate amount of time telling me how good, how fast or how ethical they are - then my instincts go on high alert!!

RE: Ethics training

MiketheEngineer, I raise the Red Flag with a sell job, too.  I agree with TheTick, too.  A friend of mine, a very dear man, told me years ago that he looks for the purity of motive in people.  That became my gauge, too.  A lot of Bible study has helped tremendously, too, to recognize not only the bad but the good.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Ethics training

It's a shame we can't get St. Thomas Aquinas to join the discussion. He had a lot to say about virtue and ethics.

RE: Ethics training

I'm surprised that this has not yet lead off into a discussion of the 'X' and 'Y' management styles since I suspect that if one looked close enough at managers who exhibited one style versus the other, that some correlation could be made to the topic being discussed here as well:

http://www.netmba.com/mgmt/ob/motivation/mcgregor/

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Ethics training

My Theory Y side works very hard at being a Theory X person.

In undergraduate school I took a course in organizational behavior; the professor didn't think highly of the XY theory.

RE: Ethics training

Since I've worked for classic examples of both (fortunately more 'Y's than 'X's) I KNOW they exist, whether their forehead is 'branded' as such or not winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Ethics training

Being a Theory X employee would be unethical since it lacks virue.

RE: Ethics training

I'm afraid I suspect the people who cloak their actions either with religion or patriotism.
There can be few people more odious that Tony Blair who stopped short of actually claiming "God told him to do it" but used his religious beliefs as an excuse for some pretty inexcusable behaviour.... (you can substitute you favourite politicians name here).
Yes, literally there can be a few people more odious, but he sets a tough standard.
I'm also suspicious of those who have an even greater belief that there is no God.
At either extreme we have people whose very "in your face" protestations of what they say they belief makes me highly suspicious.
So I agree with MikeTheEngineer's suspicions about those who self proclaim their honesty and integrity.... like all those people who try to tell me how legal it is for them to be offering me 20% for helping them dispose of $30million dollars stranded in their (Nigerian) bank.
I want to know what it is they're trying to put over on me.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Ethics training

jmw, I am Christian and patriotic but very flawed.  I try to do the right thing but I do goof up often.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Ethics training

I am known to be an atheist and not particularly patriotic, but I have earned a very high level of trust from many people, and I believe this is due to what I have done more so than what I have said.

I never trust those loudly proclaiming to be Christian, especially the newer more evangelic breeds so common in the USA

Regards
Pat
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RE: Ethics training

patprimmer, words and actions are important so I pay attention to both.  I apply Galatians 5: 19 ff to everyone including moi.  When my actions and words don't align with scripture, I know I am afoul somehow, somewhere.

I know people inside and outside the church that I don't trust because of their words and actions.  I've watched people morph from being strictly one thing to something completely different to "fit in."  I don't believe in fitting in.

Because of experience, I am particularly suspicious of people that attack others, cause strife, are contentious, prone to outbursts of anger, are jealous, have exclusive cliques, carouse, and are drunkards or drug addicts.

Most of the people I've had many of those problems with are atheists or don't attend church regularly.

All of this reminds me of a friend.  So I'll also recommend "Heft on Wheels" by Mike Magnuson.  Mike had a tough journey from a life of "relative waste" to a life with "purpose and definition."  Mike and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum.  I took him in stride but he cannot tolerate me.  His journey is worth a read.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Ethics training

Note, I was referring to extremes, not to normal everyday folk. The sort of people who have power and cloak their use of power in some such justifying belief.
Of course people are guided by their beliefs, that is the main function of religions and civil laws, a recognition that we are not naturally inclined to do what we know we need to if we are to have any harmony. For many, a belief in God is an optional add on to religion.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Ethics training

Quote (lacajun):

Most of the people I've had many of those problems with are atheists or don't attend church regularly.
And a goodly number of those people I've had problems with were Christians who were <cough> religious about attending church every week, so I'd say the distribution is pretty fair across the board.

Don't tell me you're a good Christian when you're a long-time girlfriend but you're also getting busy with the guy across town (and I'm the one going to hell?!).  Don't tell me you're a good Christian when I just watched you take money from the petty cash drawer so you could grab a quick nip at the local bar after work.  Don't tell me you're a good Christian when I know you're working hard to stab a coworker in the back because he makes your life more difficult.  And so on, and so on...

There are jerks everywhere, and I'm not real fond of people who proclaim their saintliness merely because of their piety.  Put up or shut up, but don't tell me you're a saint when you can tangle with the best of sinners. winky smile

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Ethics training

I am a Christian, but no longer of the McVangelical variety.  I have learned to be wary of any business that puts the "little fish" on its signs and literature.

RE: Ethics training

I think I am Christian - but I too RUN from the little "fishies".  NEVER had a good experience......

RE: Ethics training

I've never been evangelical.  I study the Bible and attend church but realize I am very insignificant in all pictures, big and small.

I had an agnostic, early in my career, warn me about getting fired for stealing from the company.  Later that day, I saw the individual exit the plant with a bag from the warehouse, with the warehouse tag attached.  It was another lesson in Freudian Projection, which ended my confusion about him bringing the whole topic up.  I'm a lot of things but I am not a thief.

I know Christians who are pretty undesirable people.  I can include relatives in that group.  What people tend to forget is that the only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is Christ.  We are still people with an old sin nature.  Mine can go on a rampage, which I regret, but that isn't a normal way of life for me.

I had a friend in church steal $500 from me.  His problems were obvious but I had no reason to distrust him.  I never learned why he did it and he never repaid the money.  I learned to not trust him so much.  I talked to a couple of deacons in the church but nothing ever came of it.  My friend couldn't repay it and that was that.

People say a lot of things never meaning a word for a variety of reasons.  But, I will still take people at their word until they prove I shouldn't.  And, I am not as trusting as I used to be with a lot of things in my life.  But, I still help others in need.

100% accuracy on right and wrong is hard to achieve.  I like reminders on proper conduct because I need them.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Ethics training

Here's something strange that happened to me about three years ago; I never told anyone about it. I went out at lunchtime to have a smoke and a guy comes up to me with a hard luck story. He needed $35.00; he said he'd pay me back tomorrow (yeah sure). I wanted to tell him that his story was BS because it was completely illogical. Nevertheless I gave him the money; don't ask me why. Here's where it gets strange: Within two weeks $350 came my way.  Even though I had a windfall I don't help anyone with the expectation of receiving a reward; it doesn't work that way.
 
Regarding the stolen $500, it's not wrong to mistrust someone. We're expected to exercise prudence, along with fortitude, temperance and justice.
 

RE: Ethics training

To words you never hear from a trustworthy person: "Trust me."

RE: Ethics training

Roger that!!

RE: Ethics training

I've used "trust me" on rare occasions.

Just completed my ethics exam for the State of Louisiana to renew my license.  They've changed things.  I had to submit a 33 question exam and will need to score at least 90% to pass.  Reading through the documentation and answering some of the questions made me reflect on the past year's events.  Helped me realize, again, I did the right thing as painful as it has been.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Ethics training

Quote:

100% accuracy on right and wrong is hard to achieve.

Is more than hard to achieve, but is often impossible to even know, hence the term, moral dilemma.

An example.

I know an end user is asking at least two people to do development work for free and invest in plant and equipment with a promise that they will get the production job which involves a truckload of work on short notice, hence the capital investment requirement.

Both are working hard and about to spend a significant proportion of their net worth. I am providing technical support and samples of materials to both.

I expect that the one who does not get the contract will end up bankrupt. What to do.

All I could do was suggest to each that there where 400 moulders in Sydney and you can never be sure there are not others quoting the same work, so where they absolutely sure they should invest before they get an iron clad contract. When asked why? do you know something, I replied, well if I did it would be confidential, but the reason I am saying this is that I know how far you are extending yourself on a handshake and years of experience has taught me that is a risky practice.

Unfortunately, one of them is now bankrupt and closed down with plant auctioned off pretty much as a direct result of this.

It turns out they where both dealing with different people at the end user and there was a power struggle going on there and the guy who won the power struggle chose the supplier. He tried to throw the losing supplier a few crumbs because he knew he had invested on a promise from his colleague, but it was not enough for the losing supplier to stay viable.

Regards
Pat
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