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Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
Yes, lower cost lighter lithium ion batteries that charge in seconds.....
Battery that 'charges in seconds'
Apparently the weight advantages are such that this has already been taken up by the military.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Interesting.  We'll see whether reality lives up to the hype in a couple years.  

If it does, I imagine there will be a real shift to using these.

Patricia Lougheed

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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
Could be very interesting.... submarine batteries.... no more all nighters on the surface charging batteries....
Maybe if they can take a rapid charge they could be used to buffer wind turbine energy...  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

One of the problems with rapid charging was pointed in one of the ancillary articles; most systems' power infrastructures are not capable of providing power for doing rapid charging.

Let's say it takes 216 MJ to go 200 miles, and you want to recharge the battery in 5 minutes; that would require 720 kW usable charging rate into the battery, which is a non-trivial delivery rate.

So, for small batteries, like for iPods and smartphones, no problem.

TTFN

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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

submarine batteries????

Do modern submarines have batteries? Well maybe from third world contries, but the rest of us I believe use reactors to make steam.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Nuclear subs have batteries - lots of batteries.  

David Castor
www.cvoes.com

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

I can see fewer hours on the surface charging batteries but the charge rate will probably be limited by the capacity of the diesel generators rather than the batteries ability to accept the charge.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
Yes, but if you have faster charging batteries, won't you revamp the generators?
The over-riding concern would be time on surface.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

No, for diesel electric subs, the majority of time is spent on the surface, because the battery capacity is insufficient, not because of the charging or discharging rates.  The inherent energy density of batteries is lower than the fuels normally used for propulsion.  That's why typical EVs are limited to a couple hundred miles, while gas-powered cars can do several hundred miles.

TTFN

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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

And they can travel faster on the surface when using diesel propulsion.

rmw

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
Mike, that's a nice link.
I especially liked the comment:

Quote:

In a carrier-dominated Navy, he knew there was no chance that funds would be appropriated for such a radical purpose. But he also knew that carrier admirals feared submarines. And that was the leverage he used. He submitted his proposal as a target for submarine hunter-killer groups to practice on. Approval was immediate.
Very Sir Humphrey style thinking by Admiral Momsen.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

The Sub Service seems to attract or breed leaders with style.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Quote:

Yes, but if you have faster charging batteries, won't you revamp the generators?
The over-riding concern would be time on surface.
Just increase the size and weight of the engines and generators until you run out of space and/or buoyancy. They may be close to the line already. There is not much spare space or buoyancy in a sub.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Even if you had the generator capacity, which you do, going to the surface is a nontrivial task.  Blowing ballast, setting planes, starting the diesel engines, charge for 10 seconds, shutting down the diesel engines, blah, blah, blah...  

End result is probably a half hour affair to charge a battery for 10 seconds.   

TTFN

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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
Contingency planning.
Yes, the idea may be to run on the surface at night for maximum distance. But if early on in the run you get bounced and have to dive and run submerged, I'm pretty sure everyone would be happier knowing they have the maximum charge possible in the shortest time.
Plus, if you can cut the generators off line, you should be able to squeeze a bit more speed out of the boat. Yes?  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
PS, by the way, this being the UK military I suspect much of the military interest so far has been in making the squady's life a bit easier so submarine batteries may be far off and its just my throwing out an idea that may be way off beam.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

I think that my earlier comment had to do with sustained running.  The operative word(s) in that piece were "short bursts".  Funny that she set the underwater speed record while being towed with no screw even installed.

I would note that every battery car I have ever been in can accelerate much faster than when gasoline driven, but they can't produce that kind of power for long.

Speaking of Rickover, I am glad that the service allows a few quirky guys like him to survive.

rmw

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

That's just a combination of the energy density difference and the difference between a PM motor and an IC engine.  An IC engine could presumably be built that would have gobs of torque at low rpm/speed, but it would probably gulp gas like crazy.

Nonetheless, the generators required for the quick charging would likely be 10 to 100 times the size of the normal generators, which aren't exactly dinky to start with.  This also means that the engines would need to be upped by a factor of 10-ish.  That's a lot of SWaP to give up for those batteries.

TTFN

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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

So if you up the size of the engines, won't that affect the balance between the forward and back ends of the boat?

Makes me wonder if anyone has looked into fuel cells, and just get rid of the engines.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

I think that heavy haul trucking will be an easier market target to hit.
Paccar is already into hybrids.
http://www.paccar.com/environmental/hybridprogram.asp

As a topic for discussion, I wonder about the feasibility of a boxcar full of batteries to help freight trains through the mountain passes.  

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

One boxcar ain't gonna do it.

The PACCAR program provides power when the engine would otherwise be idling; orders of magnitude less than required to push a loaded train.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

I think some of you are missing the point here:  a battery which can be charged in 20 seconds can also be charged in 1 minute or 5 minutes. What these guys have done is to remove a key rate-limiting step in the recharging process (ion transport), which is HUGE for so many battery-powered devices!

Most importantly, at first blush, this would appear to be a solution for electric vehicle recharging.  

The issue of heat management during the fast recharge is not trivial and would be a serious consideration.  None of these electrochemical processes are 100% efficient, and the heat liberated has to go somewhere.  Just like mass transport (moving ions around in this case), heat transport takes time.

Assuming the heat management issue can be dealt with (huge assumption), providing the peak current to recharge a vehicle at a vehicle charging station in a short period of time (minutes rather than hours) is a trivial problem.  This would not be something you'd have at home, any more than most of us have a big fuel tank at home to refuel our existing cars.  And it would make the difference between a vehicle being stranded for hours versus being able to refuel rather like a conventional gasoline or diesel vehicle- albeit more frequently.  There's a huge value proposition in it.  

A truly fast charge would render electric vehicles that were previously limited to being run-abouts for commuting or shopping, into a fuller replacement for existing liquid fueled vehicles.  They could become distance vehicles over time, once the volumes of vehicles on the road made the infrastructure investment worth the market's while to install.  Granted, most people don't drive further than 50 miles per day, but the inability to drive more than 100 miles without an 8 hr recharge, makes the electric vehicle impractical for most people as anything except perhaps a 2nd vehicle.  The option of dragging around an IC engine all the time for those comparatively rare occasions where extra range is necessary (i.e. the Chevy Volt) is not all that appealing either.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
It presumably can also be discharged as rapidly which may also deliver some advantages.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

I don't think anyone is missing the point.  The Tesla battery is 56 kWh capacity.  Even at 5 minutes of charging, the charger would need to supply 672 kW of continuous charging.  If these cars were actually more plentiful, a charging station would need to be dumping megawatts, and require infrastructure that doesn't exist now.

TTFN

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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

The existing gasoline refining and distribution infrastructure didn't exist in the days of horses and buggies either.  It was built slowly to satisfy a demand.

Assuming the heat management in the battery itself can be worked out (a huge assumption), building some stations which can do ~3 MW (5-6 cars-worth assuming they all need full "tanks") of recharging at a time, wouldn't be a huge technical problem.  A smart grid could make these stations wait a bit longer (15 minutes instead of 5) to moderate demand during peak periods- but nobody would wait around for 2-4 hours for a recharge unless it was at work etc.  

Smart charging stations might add an energy storage system such as a high speed flywheel etc. to make use of off-peak electricity- or maybe just a much larger bank of the same batteries. Even with the losses inherent in storage, the resulting energy source-to-wheels efficiency would be pretty good- though questionable if the ultimate source is still fossil-derived.  If shale gas is the ultimate source, LNG makes far more sense as a fuel.  

Most people would still recharge at home, overnight, using off-peak electricity, simply because this would be (much) cheaper than using a charging station- but these stations would render longer trips feasible.  It's huge for the overall acceptance of the electric vehicle as a replacement for a fossil-fueled one.

All of this is well within the realm of existing technology- no new inventions necessary. All it takes is the money to fund it.  And that will only come from one place:  the price of liquid fuels.  Until there's a price on carbon emissions to the atmosphere which shows up in the price of fuels, this is all academic.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

If a charge will take 15 minutes have a coffee and a do-nut while waiting.
So- will Dunkin Donuts be putting in charging stations or will the charging stations be lining up for DD franchises (Timmy's in Canada).

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

15 minute charges would quintuple the number of required stations or "pumps"  The line at Costco is already typically too long, while a refueling cycle that is less than 3 minutes.  My local Costco can refuel 20 cars at the same time, so even with 1/3 the load, 20*224kW = 4.48 MW.  That's a gigantic investment in infrastructure.

TTFN

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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

The Canadian Navy uses just Victoria Class diesel-electric subs.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

IRStuff:  true enough, but only if you think people will try to charge their cars only at remote stations, the way you're forced to do with gasoline cars.  They won't- the only time they'll use the remote stations is when they're on long trips.  For the 90+% of trips that take the vehicle less than 100 miles per day, they'll charge at home overnight on off-peak power.  Station charging will come at a serious premium.  

Yes, this means less nighttime cooling for grid components and will make off-peak look more like on-peak, but this will not happen in a couple of years.

People needing true long-haul range (i.e. in remote locations) will still need liquid fueled vehicles, unless or until someone makes a quantum leap in battery technology.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

I know a number of people who drive about 130 miles a day to work and back. So remote charging isen't so easy to wash away.

I guess they could charge while at work, but how much would you have to put in the combined parking and charging meter. Will they be charged by the charge, or kWh?

Sometimes it is winter here, so what would the range be if you run the heater? Or AC in the summer? Won't wet roads affect the range?

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
Easy change battery packs?
You buy the car then go buy a fully charged battery pack. You pay a deposit on the battery pack equivalent to its cost but every time you run low you simply swop it out. The power provider maintain the batteries and replaces them as necessary.

This is exactly how you buy bottled gas and this could be a good business model.
So all you need is that the service station has lots of ready charged batteries and they simply put the returned battery on charge, run quality checks etc.
Over time, of course, your refund value on the battery depreciates.
This is a no lose for the supplier because who is going to claim their refund?

Of course, the batteries are a hefty item and may need to be modular and car design may need to allow for ease of unplugging an replacing batteries. But if these batteries are seriously lighter, this could be a way forward.
This is also a good way to avoid some of the infrastructure costs.
The G-Wiz, for example, requires a 3 phase supply for charging.
Most users could possibly get by with a trickle charge to get enough charge to get to the service station. I'd like to know how the new battery might influence charger specifications.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

If you can just swap out the batteries, then you don't need faster charging batteries. Just more of them.

However, as you touched on, the weight, and size are problems. Haveing at least two car manufactures use the same type of battery size would be difficult, let alone six or more.
The weight of several hundred pounds, to several thousand pounds is difficult. You would need a fork lift at each filling station, as well as how many bolts to loosen and tighten.
Dosen't sound like a quick change option.

And currently the production of lithium is very limited, which is a problem.

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
990lbs is a lot of dead weight to cart around.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

If you charge the batteries, then they won't be dead weight would they.

Compressed air still sounds better and quicker to recharge.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Compressed air might be quick to charge, but the efficiency and the storage hazard are both really lousy.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

If efficiency is your goal, then why are you looking at batteries for storage of electricty?

Storage hazard? What happens if you break the encasement of a battery? If it's liquid, it will leak. If it is immobalized electrolite, the the life, and efficency suffer.

I'm not for compressed air, but I see no reason to not use it as a compairson.

The issue here is the energy density, and speed of charging. For a non-air breathing propulation (no chemical fuels) Air just seems better than lithium batteries.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
Energy density? Liquid CO2 cartridges?
Oops!
My bad. CO2 is a poison these days.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Batteries are WAY more efficient in energy storage/retrieval than air or any other gas compressed to high pressure.  You lose most of the work of compression as heat, and there's no use for that heat.  And unless you pick up heat from the atmosphere during expansion (i.e a large, heavy and drag-inducing air to air heat exchanger you need to carry along with you), all you get is the PxV energy in the gas- a very small percentage of what you put in to compress it.

Air compressed in enormous quantity to relatively low pressures is a different matter.  The efficiency is much better and the storage hazard much lower- but then the energy storage per unit volume is nowhere nearly good enough for transportation uses.

A battery leak or even a battery fire is a manageable risk, no different than a gasoline leak or gasoline fire.  Though a compressed air leak is no big problem, a high pressure compressed air tank rupture during a crash is a different matter entirely.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
Just how big a problem would it be to design easy swap batteries?
If the service is good, shorter range would be feasible with smaller batteries.
The G-Wiz doesn't seem that sophisticated (ignoring for the moment the serious safety issues).

Quite obviously 'elf 'n safety wouldn't contemplate actual people lifting and shifting heavy batteries but if there were the imperative, I'm sure a system  could be worked out where you drive up to the battery change station, position the car as directed (as you do in a car wash) enter you credit card and push a button. OK, maybe you would hook up to compressed air to provide some energy to eject the battery pack onto a hydraulic tray which would then take away your battery and supply another, identified by micro chip battery or vehicle identifiers.
It could all be automated.

The new batteries would have a weight advantage for the vehicle and charge time advantages for such service stations, it only requires a suitable modular approach and some form of standardisation.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
And in the light of this thread, their claim:
"Tesla starts with thousands of best-in-class Lithium-ion cells ....."
One hopes they haven't invested too much money in a unique battery type and can easily adopt the new cells.

Can anyone advise, with faster charging and faster discharging potential, how will his affect realisable performance?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
As it happens, Tesla say they recharge in 45 minutes......
for a 300mile range.....

I'd sack the web site designer though.
Next to Home page in the menu is Roadster.
You click and it comes up with a page labelled "The New Roadster".
You click on design studio and it says:

Quote:

We are now reaching the end of Roadster production for North America.
I'd match the opening to this statement and I'd put the current models page first on the menu. Maybe bury roadster details deep n the website.

It makes you wonder just how many sales there were they didn't continue production and how much you can depend on the other cars.
Maybe this is all about battery manufacture not cars?
I've no doubt they answer it all somewhere but I shouldn't have to search and after that start I'm not inclined to.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
PS Tesla don't say anything about brakes.... with no power assist from an IC engine, how do they deliver decent braking and what happens when you batteries start to go flat?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Power assist just adds weight, and anyone who drives an old car knows you really don't need them.

I believe that it is automatic transmissions, and power breakes that create stop and go traffic. Without them people would be more mindful of pacing there speed, and not stop and go. We would all be driving more effecently without them.

Besides an electric vacuum pump can be used to power not only power breakes, but also windshield wipers, cruse control, and air vents and even wipers for your headlights. If you really want them.

You really don't need all that stuff, just a radio, and maybe a GPS.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

"how will his affect realisable performance?"

The acceleration is pretty darn good already, so it's unclear whether one would realistically want to push the sytem any more, particularly without knowing what the stress margins are.

Everything in the Tesla is designed for the battery system they have now, so one needs to know what margins the designers applied to determine whether any improvement can be had at all.

 

TTFN

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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Don't know for sure, but assume that any decent EV is going to do a lot of regenerative braking.  Mechanical friction brakes will be there but not used much.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Regenerative braking will slow a vehicle, but not stop it. It also may not be used for very heavy braking, depending on the elecrtical systems ability to generate energy from the wheels, and the batteries ability to store it (a rate thing, not capacity).

Some of the range will be lost in bad driving habits, or habits which do not allow the regenerative braking to work to it's fullest extent.

Having said that, I believe the technology is there, but not to the point where it will work for most people. However, there are some people who it will work for, and can afford it (sort of like the Stanley steemer). But for the masses of people it will not be there best car to drive.

 

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Dunno cranky, my Prius has 130,000 km on it already and the pads and rotors and rear drum shoes are barely worn.  It's pretty easy to learn.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

When will we see electric 4X4 pickup trucks with some cargo capacity?
I would get tired of renting that truck at home depo for my wife's plants.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

What we need to stop is people who buy the huge pick-up because they tow a trailer a few weekends every summer, but then drive the thing 280 days per year as a commuter vehicle.  That's why we're pissing through fossil fuels as fast as we are now.  And the only reason for that is that fuels are too cheap- and fuel users don't pay the full cost of their consumption.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

Maybe they could buy a smaller car for commuter vehicle, if the cars were priced within reasonable limits. I for one won't buy a smaller car because I don't have $30-40,000 to waste for a car that I can't work on. Then another several hundred to put tag and insurance.

Besides, my 4X4 works well in snow. Those other guys just don't seem to make it into work on snowey days.

RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.

(OP)
Well, how about a wireless technology to charge vehicles on the move?
That's what is being tested by Bombardier in Canada.
Of course, it could lead to "charging spots" such as in parking bays, and traffic lights..... or well known bottlenecks..... and in speed bump zones? an excellent incentivised traffic calming system.....

PS by "suitable battery technology" perhaps they may refer to the new fast charge batteries we started this thread with?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

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