Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
(OP)
Yes, lower cost lighter lithium ion batteries that charge in seconds.....
Battery that 'charges in seconds'
Apparently the weight advantages are such that this has already been taken up by the military.
Battery that 'charges in seconds'
Apparently the weight advantages are such that this has already been taken up by the military.





RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
If it does, I imagine there will be a real shift to using these.
Patricia Lougheed
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Maybe if they can take a rapid charge they could be used to buffer wind turbine energy...
JMW
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Let's say it takes 216 MJ to go 200 miles, and you want to recharge the battery in 5 minutes; that would require 720 kW usable charging rate into the battery, which is a non-trivial delivery rate.
So, for small batteries, like for iPods and smartphones, no problem.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Do modern submarines have batteries? Well maybe from third world contries, but the rest of us I believe use reactors to make steam.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
David Castor
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
The over-riding concern would be time on surface.
JMW
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
rmw
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Not necessarily true since AGSS 569 Albacore.
h
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
I especially liked the comment:
Very Sir Humphrey style thinking by Admiral Momsen.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
End result is probably a half hour affair to charge a battery for 10 seconds.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
after diving, run at flank speed for 20 minutes, repeat...
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Yes, the idea may be to run on the surface at night for maximum distance. But if early on in the run you get bounced and have to dive and run submerged, I'm pretty sure everyone would be happier knowing they have the maximum charge possible in the shortest time.
Plus, if you can cut the generators off line, you should be able to squeeze a bit more speed out of the boat. Yes?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
I would note that every battery car I have ever been in can accelerate much faster than when gasoline driven, but they can't produce that kind of power for long.
Speaking of Rickover, I am glad that the service allows a few quirky guys like him to survive.
rmw
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Nonetheless, the generators required for the quick charging would likely be 10 to 100 times the size of the normal generators, which aren't exactly dinky to start with. This also means that the engines would need to be upped by a factor of 10-ish. That's a lot of SWaP to give up for those batteries.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Makes me wonder if anyone has looked into fuel cells, and just get rid of the engines.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Paccar is already into hybrids.
htt
As a topic for discussion, I wonder about the feasibility of a boxcar full of batteries to help freight trains through the mountain passes.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
The PACCAR program provides power when the engine would otherwise be idling; orders of magnitude less than required to push a loaded train.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Most importantly, at first blush, this would appear to be a solution for electric vehicle recharging.
The issue of heat management during the fast recharge is not trivial and would be a serious consideration. None of these electrochemical processes are 100% efficient, and the heat liberated has to go somewhere. Just like mass transport (moving ions around in this case), heat transport takes time.
Assuming the heat management issue can be dealt with (huge assumption), providing the peak current to recharge a vehicle at a vehicle charging station in a short period of time (minutes rather than hours) is a trivial problem. This would not be something you'd have at home, any more than most of us have a big fuel tank at home to refuel our existing cars. And it would make the difference between a vehicle being stranded for hours versus being able to refuel rather like a conventional gasoline or diesel vehicle- albeit more frequently. There's a huge value proposition in it.
A truly fast charge would render electric vehicles that were previously limited to being run-abouts for commuting or shopping, into a fuller replacement for existing liquid fueled vehicles. They could become distance vehicles over time, once the volumes of vehicles on the road made the infrastructure investment worth the market's while to install. Granted, most people don't drive further than 50 miles per day, but the inability to drive more than 100 miles without an 8 hr recharge, makes the electric vehicle impractical for most people as anything except perhaps a 2nd vehicle. The option of dragging around an IC engine all the time for those comparatively rare occasions where extra range is necessary (i.e. the Chevy Volt) is not all that appealing either.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Assuming the heat management in the battery itself can be worked out (a huge assumption), building some stations which can do ~3 MW (5-6 cars-worth assuming they all need full "tanks") of recharging at a time, wouldn't be a huge technical problem. A smart grid could make these stations wait a bit longer (15 minutes instead of 5) to moderate demand during peak periods- but nobody would wait around for 2-4 hours for a recharge unless it was at work etc.
Smart charging stations might add an energy storage system such as a high speed flywheel etc. to make use of off-peak electricity- or maybe just a much larger bank of the same batteries. Even with the losses inherent in storage, the resulting energy source-to-wheels efficiency would be pretty good- though questionable if the ultimate source is still fossil-derived. If shale gas is the ultimate source, LNG makes far more sense as a fuel.
Most people would still recharge at home, overnight, using off-peak electricity, simply because this would be (much) cheaper than using a charging station- but these stations would render longer trips feasible. It's huge for the overall acceptance of the electric vehicle as a replacement for a fossil-fueled one.
All of this is well within the realm of existing technology- no new inventions necessary. All it takes is the money to fund it. And that will only come from one place: the price of liquid fuels. Until there's a price on carbon emissions to the atmosphere which shows up in the price of fuels, this is all academic.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
So- will Dunkin Donuts be putting in charging stations or will the charging stations be lining up for DD franchises (Timmy's in Canada).
Bill
--------------------
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Jimmy Carter
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Yes, this means less nighttime cooling for grid components and will make off-peak look more like on-peak, but this will not happen in a couple of years.
People needing true long-haul range (i.e. in remote locations) will still need liquid fueled vehicles, unless or until someone makes a quantum leap in battery technology.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
I guess they could charge while at work, but how much would you have to put in the combined parking and charging meter. Will they be charged by the charge, or kWh?
Sometimes it is winter here, so what would the range be if you run the heater? Or AC in the summer? Won't wet roads affect the range?
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
You buy the car then go buy a fully charged battery pack. You pay a deposit on the battery pack equivalent to its cost but every time you run low you simply swop it out. The power provider maintain the batteries and replaces them as necessary.
This is exactly how you buy bottled gas and this could be a good business model.
So all you need is that the service station has lots of ready charged batteries and they simply put the returned battery on charge, run quality checks etc.
Over time, of course, your refund value on the battery depreciates.
This is a no lose for the supplier because who is going to claim their refund?
Of course, the batteries are a hefty item and may need to be modular and car design may need to allow for ease of unplugging an replacing batteries. But if these batteries are seriously lighter, this could be a way forward.
This is also a good way to avoid some of the infrastructure costs.
The G-Wiz, for example, requires a 3 phase supply for charging.
Most users could possibly get by with a trickle charge to get enough charge to get to the service station. I'd like to know how the new battery might influence charger specifications.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
However, as you touched on, the weight, and size are problems. Haveing at least two car manufactures use the same type of battery size would be difficult, let alone six or more.
The weight of several hundred pounds, to several thousand pounds is difficult. You would need a fork lift at each filling station, as well as how many bolts to loosen and tighten.
Dosen't sound like a quick change option.
And currently the production of lithium is very limited, which is a problem.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
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JMW
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Compressed air still sounds better and quicker to recharge.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Storage hazard? What happens if you break the encasement of a battery? If it's liquid, it will leak. If it is immobalized electrolite, the the life, and efficency suffer.
I'm not for compressed air, but I see no reason to not use it as a compairson.
The issue here is the energy density, and speed of charging. For a non-air breathing propulation (no chemical fuels) Air just seems better than lithium batteries.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Oops!
My bad. CO2 is a poison these days.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Air compressed in enormous quantity to relatively low pressures is a different matter. The efficiency is much better and the storage hazard much lower- but then the energy storage per unit volume is nowhere nearly good enough for transportation uses.
A battery leak or even a battery fire is a manageable risk, no different than a gasoline leak or gasoline fire. Though a compressed air leak is no big problem, a high pressure compressed air tank rupture during a crash is a different matter entirely.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
If the service is good, shorter range would be feasible with smaller batteries.
The G-Wiz doesn't seem that sophisticated (ignoring for the moment the serious safety issues).
Quite obviously 'elf 'n safety wouldn't contemplate actual people lifting and shifting heavy batteries but if there were the imperative, I'm sure a system could be worked out where you drive up to the battery change station, position the car as directed (as you do in a car wash) enter you credit card and push a button. OK, maybe you would hook up to compressed air to provide some energy to eject the battery pack onto a hydraulic tray which would then take away your battery and supply another, identified by micro chip battery or vehicle identifiers.
It could all be automated.
The new batteries would have a weight advantage for the vehicle and charge time advantages for such service stations, it only requires a suitable modular approach and some form of standardisation.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
"Tesla starts with thousands of best-in-class Lithium-ion cells ....."
One hopes they haven't invested too much money in a unique battery type and can easily adopt the new cells.
Can anyone advise, with faster charging and faster discharging potential, how will his affect realisable performance?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
for a 300mile range.....
I'd sack the web site designer though.
Next to Home page in the menu is Roadster.
You click and it comes up with a page labelled "The New Roadster".
You click on design studio and it says:
I'd match the opening to this statement and I'd put the current models page first on the menu. Maybe bury roadster details deep n the website.
It makes you wonder just how many sales there were they didn't continue production and how much you can depend on the other cars.
Maybe this is all about battery manufacture not cars?
I've no doubt they answer it all somewhere but I shouldn't have to search and after that start I'm not inclined to.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
I believe that it is automatic transmissions, and power breakes that create stop and go traffic. Without them people would be more mindful of pacing there speed, and not stop and go. We would all be driving more effecently without them.
Besides an electric vacuum pump can be used to power not only power breakes, but also windshield wipers, cruse control, and air vents and even wipers for your headlights. If you really want them.
You really don't need all that stuff, just a radio, and maybe a GPS.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
The acceleration is pretty darn good already, so it's unclear whether one would realistically want to push the sytem any more, particularly without knowing what the stress margins are.
Everything in the Tesla is designed for the battery system they have now, so one needs to know what margins the designers applied to determine whether any improvement can be had at all.
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RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Some of the range will be lost in bad driving habits, or habits which do not allow the regenerative braking to work to it's fullest extent.
Having said that, I believe the technology is there, but not to the point where it will work for most people. However, there are some people who it will work for, and can afford it (sort of like the Stanley steemer). But for the masses of people it will not be there best car to drive.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Very interesting little analysis done in "Without the Hot Air" on electric vehicles and their potential range.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
I would get tired of renting that truck at home depo for my wife's plants.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
Besides, my 4X4 works well in snow. Those other guys just don't seem to make it into work on snowey days.
RE: Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries.
That's what is being tested by Bombardier in Canada.
Of course, it could lead to "charging spots" such as in parking bays, and traffic lights..... or well known bottlenecks..... and in speed bump zones? an excellent incentivised traffic calming system.....
PS by "suitable battery technology" perhaps they may refer to the new fast charge batteries we started this thread with?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com