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Suggested Readings for Engr Students
38

Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Suggested Readings for Engr Students

(OP)
Quite a few of my undergraduate students from this semester have been asking me to recommend to them 'books' or other readings that will help them toward their development as a human being as well as an engineer.  So I created my first ever blog to answer this question.
 
http://braxtonlewis.blogspot.com/

The books listed are the one's that I seem to recommend most to just about everyone.  Would you mind taking a look and letting me know what you think?  What else would you recommend to me and to our students?

 

Braxton V. Lewis
Morgantown, WV   

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

My foundations teacher made us read: A Man of Judgment, by Ralph Peck.  I found it to be worth while.  

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

(OP)
@DWHA, it seems that Ralph Peck was from my Department here at West Virginia University.  Perhaps this little gem has been lost to several generations of both student and faculty.  I have ordered it from our library archives and will review it immediately.  Thank you for the suggestion.

Braxton V. Lewis
Morgantown, WV   

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I can't see your list, but I would recommend "What Went Wrong".  Definitely for ChEs but probably helpful for others as well to understand the impact engineering can have.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

(OP)
@ash9144, I'm sorry that you aren't able to view the blog.  Regarding your suggestion of "What Went Wrong", are you speaking of the series of Plant Disasters books?

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Old copies of "MAD MAGAZINE"  I learned a "lot" from them...

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

2
Anything written by Henry Petroski.

His books are great, many of them concentrating on what we can learn from failures.  He makes a very relevant, yet often overlooked observation that as engineers, there is MUCH more which can be learned from a single failure than what can be learned from dozens of successes.

Some of the titles that I've read of his include:

To Engineer Is Human: The Role of Failure in Successful Design (1985)

Design Paradigms: Case Histories of Error and Judgment in Engineering (1994)

Success Through Failure: The Paradox of Design. (2006)

Anyway, these reads are well worth the time and he does a great job of explaining not only what there is to be learned from looking at a failure but why in retrospect, we should not have been surprised when they occur.  Note that he spends a lot of time on bridges (after all, he's a Civil Engineer), but than as he explains, bridges are particularly prone to that which causes engineering failures and if you read his books you will see that this often goes well beyond the physics or mathematics of the problem, but also what role does public policy and how such projects are financed have an impact on what actually gets built and how this can make an eventual failure inevitable.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Absolutely not being snarky, but what about their textbooks?  Do they actually read them and work through the example problems?

And again, seriously, ASCE 7 and the IBC/IRC codes.  Such fun, light reading, but super helpful.

For folks getting into structural design, especially residential, I'd recommend a subscription to the Journal of Light Construction.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

(OP)
@slta, I should have mentioned in the original post that I'm looking for something 'outside' of their textbooks.  It's only too reasonable to expect that they read their textbooks.  However based upon the rate of students who rent or sell back their books after each semester, we can see what little long-term benefit that investment is creating.  Thank you for the comment.  Now I have to get back to reading LRFD.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

LRFD.  Yeah, right.

I read almost the complete works of Agatha Christie in undergrad.  They helped me stop reading about concrete and use my brain in a totally different way.  But, I believe, it is important to think about every aspect of every problem - just ask Bill LeMessurier if a small connection change doesn't matter, you know?

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Another tact which I think is relevant for anyone about to start their career, particularly if it required as much attention to detail and narrowness of focus during college as does many engineering disciplines, is to also look at the history behind your choice of endeavors.  Along those lines, here are another couple of interesting books which will also be a break from the normal engineer text:

Engineering in History (1990), by Richard Shelton Kirby, Sidney Withington, Arthur Burr Darling and Frederick Gridley Kilgour

Technology in the Ancient World (1970), by Carleson S. Coon

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

(OP)
@JohnRBaker,  I share you viewpoint about the development of our discipline through its history.  Thank you for the comment, however I can only find reference to 'Technology in the Ancient World' by Henry Hodges (1970).  Is this to whom you are referring?

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

You're correct.  I mistakenly took the name of an author who wrote a comment about this book (which appears on the book's jacket), totally missing the actual author, Henry Hodges.  Thank you for catching that since Mr. Hodges deserves the credit.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I would agree with the suggestion to read anything by Petroski.  Additionally, I'd read anything by Sam Florman.

Tracy Kidder's "The Soul of a New Machine" is great, especially for electrical/computer engineers.  

Another good one is "How Round Is Your Circle?" by Bryant and Sangwin.

If you are looking for something a little more philosophical, take a look at Vincenti's "What Engineers Know and how they Know It" or Peter-Paul Verbeek's "What Things Do."

Oh man, I keep thinking of others:

"Where Good Ideas Come From" by Johnson
"Stuff you Don't Learn in Engineering School" by Selinger
"Designing Engineers" by Bucciarelli
"Flying Buttresses, Entropy, and O-Rings: The World of an Engineer" by Adams
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

(OP)
This has been a wonderful conversation.  I'm happy to see such great points of reference to share among ourselves and our students.  John, Brad, DWHA, ash, and slta, thank you for your input.  My 'to do' list has grown quite a bit today, but I'm looking forward to every minute of it.  

http://braxtonlewis.blogspot.com/

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Yes Braxton that is the book I refer to.  Case study of Bhopal, Flixborough and others.

Another that came to mind is some type of interview skills book.  I recently interviewed some young candidates (not quite new grads) and their interview skills were generally awful.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

2
Cadillac Desert which gives an interesting history of the Bureau of Reclamation and the US Army Corps of Engineers and the development of water resources in the US West.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Desert

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

KENAT,

   I have not read The Fountainhead.  Atlas Shrugged is a melodramatic screed.  Like all melodrama, Rand clearly shows which people she considers virtuous or evil, but she does nothing to show why we should believe her, or take any of it seriously.  

   The rigid, black and white logic coming from groups like the Tea Party, probably is learning some of this from Ayn Rand.  I would rate Ayn Rand is a strong Not Recommended.

               JHG

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I didn't say I was suggesting Ayn Rand, just surprised someone else hadn't.

I never got far enough with Atlas Shrugged to really comment, I just see it referenced fairly often on this site so thought I'd bring it up.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

How about telling them to read their text books, study hard, do well, and on the weekends "do" other things to relive the stress..... pipe
That what most successful uni. student does right?

peace
Fe

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Some of the books I would recommend below are out-of-print.

A book about the actual experiences of a Civil Engineer that I would recommend reading is 'Getting Sued and Other Tales of the Engineering Life' by Richard Meehan. Even as an Electrical Engineer doing RF and switch-mode power design, his chapter "Snowbound on the Rio Pangal" touches upon what it means to be an engineer searching for the ideal solution that even gave me an appreciation for soil mechanics and hydraulics as a site is evaluated for building a dam.

More real-life books, especially for an electrical engineer would be 'The Soul of a New Machine' by Tracy Kidder (previous listed by Brad1979) which gets into the effort to design a better computer amid the politics and pitfalls of the corporate world. Many a time I've encountered managements refusal to provide a crucial resource as is quoted in the book "Logic Analyzers cost $10,000... Engineering overtime is free".

A book that if you read-in-between-the-lines provides many pointers for how to set up an environment to enable engineers to do the best engineering possible would be "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich. My copy has been marked-up by a highlighter.

A book with a real-life story about the social pitfalls of the work environment, potential problems of group interactions, and problems of political management as well as an example of when engineering goes bad would be 'The Challenger Launch Decision' by Diane Vaughan. It makes me think of past workplaces in which the method of operation was 'Normalization of Deviance', and just how slippery the slope is that leads to it.

And finally, to have a humorous discussion of the downside of workplace and organizations, I would recommend 'Putt's Law and the Successful Technocrat' by Archibald Putt. "Every technical hierarchy, in time, develops a competence inversion."

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Dilbert might qualify I suppose, but may not be what you're aiming at.

Glad to see you already had 'Black Swan', it's one I was thinking of but couldn't remember the title.  I haven't read it, only heard a review but with things like Fukashima (sp?), the east coast earthquake etc. it's probably an interesting read to respond to 'but why wasn't it designed to cope with that'.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Another recent edition to my library was:

'Everything is Miscellaneous:  The power of the New Digital Disorder' (2007), by David Weinberger

And if nothing more than inspiration, may I suggest:

'No Ordinary Genius:  The Illustrated Richard Feynman' (1994), by Christopher Sykes

And while we're on the subject:

'Six Easy Pieces and Six Not So-Easy Pieces', (1963), by Richard P. Feynman

But for the person who's a real history fan, here's a jewel of a book written from a very unusual prespective, a chronological story of America leaving OUT a couple of topics which often dominates most history texts, politics and war:

'The Americans:  A Social History of the United States, 1587-1914' (1969), by J. C. Furnas

If nothing else you'll learn why Americans use their knife and fork in a manner very different than how their European brethren do (BTW, I've always eaten 'European style', despite being raised in America, which drives my wife nuts since she insists that it's barbaric.  I attribute this to having spent several summers, while growing-up, with my grandparents who were both from the 'old country').

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

2
What about plain and good literature?
- "Crime and Punishment", by Dostoievsky
- "The unbearable lightness of being", by Milan Kundera
- "100 years of sollitude", by García Marquez
- "The Enchantress of Florence", by Salman Rushdie
- "The White Tiger", by Aravind Adiga
- "Essay on Blindness", by José Saramago
- "Conversation on the Cathedral", by Mario Vargas Llosa
- "The wind-up bird chronicle", by Haruki Murakami
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

4
Ethics in Engineering,  Martin and Schinzinger

Need more details about this "What Went Wrong", as the examples of disasters (Bhopal, Challenger and numerous others) given in M&S's text on ethics are the most important and interesting for students.  They need to understand that disasters aren't usually single-cause events that can be solved merely by a better application of engineering principles.

And of course, Kipling's "the Sons of Martha".  Most students these days would also need help to understand the references used in the poem, to properly appreciate it.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

For deductive reasoning (problem solving) at it's best, even though it is fiction, I'd recommend The Complete Works of Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arther Canon Doyle.

Good luck,
Latexman

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

(OP)
Thank you all for such great recommendations.  Each have been added to the list.  I thank you for taking the time to share your ideas and personal viewpoints about the texts mentioned, and why they are important to you and toward your development as an Engineer.  

My students were 'blown away' by the overall response to the original post and with the sincerity of many of your recommendations.  I feel that I must now re-organize the 'list' into a much more usable 'Database of Ideas'; a problem that I truly welcome.  Thank you again.

http://braxtonlewis.blogspot.com/

Braxton V. Lewis
Morgantown, WV   

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

2
I truly enjoyed "The design of everyday things" by Donald A. Norman It helped me better recognize a good design and how to reproduce it in regards of human interaction with machines.

Patrick

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Quote (IRstuff):

  
Have you considered any books by James Burke, specifically "Connections?"

While that's a great book (and BBC/PBS miniseries), James Burke's other book, 'The Day the Universe Changed' (1985) (also a BBC/PBS miniseries) if probably even more relevant for this thread.

From the flyleaf:

In The Day the Universe Changed James Burke argues that knowledge is a manmade artifact, and the when man's views of reality are changed by knowledge, reality itself changes.  Armed with this provocative thesis, he charts a course from the Middle Ages to today, examining those critical periods in history when the ideas and institutions that have transformed man's understanding of the world were born.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I loved that show Connections on PBS, though I haven't seen it for ages... really made you think about how certain things have shaped us as a people.  I always wondered what kind of prep was put into those shows to find all of those connections... did it take months/years, or was someone sharp enough to think of enough in 15 minutes.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

There are some great books on your list.

My 5 cents

A couple novels.
The Power of One. Bryce Courteney.
The Count of Monty Cristo. Alexandre Dumas
Flowers for Algernon. Daniel Keyes

Psych stuff.
The Games People Play. Eric Berne
Crucial Conversations 'Tools For Talking When Stakes Are High'.

All of these helped expand up my sometimes limited prospective.

  

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

'13 Things that Don't Make Sense' was on Apple's iStore so I just downloaded it.  I'll let you know what I thought of it after I finish.  

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Also can't see the blog, but a must read is Chapter II from J. A. Waddell's "Bridge Engineering" (1916). It is available on GoogleBooks.  The chapter is titled "The Bridge Specialist", but it is applicable across all branches of engineering, even close to a century old now.  

"The life of a bridge specialist [any engineer? IC] is by no means easy, for like everyone one else he has his grievances; but he must learn to bear with those that are unavoidable and overcome the rest; and his governing motto should ever be "integrity, thoroughness, and progress."" - J.A. Waddell 1916.

IC

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

(OP)
My apologies to those of you who cannot load the blog.  This is my first-ever attempt at creating one.  Perhaps it is a browser issue.  It would be helpful if you would let me know which browser you are using that cannot access it.  I have asked google how to address the issue.  

The list has continued to grow with valuable addtions from each of you.  I brought it to some faculty colleagues yesterday who weren't stunned by the response but seemed to sigh a relief.  Their appreciation for your continued interest in: Literature, Technical and Non-technical Engineering topics, Philosophy, Psychology, Economics, Legal, and general experience driven texts from the Engineering discipline have breathed fresh life into these withering old professors.  

The list has sparked a great deal of conversation, and I have been asked to address 500 of our newest (1st semester freshman) engineering students about what it means to have a response like this from you, seasoned professionals.

As you may be aware, many of our younger students don't read much outside of cell-phone text messaging.  Those students that I have shared your posts with have thus far, seemed moved.  It is important, and it has been extremely beneficial for all of our students who now recognize that engaging in the ideas of people both inside and outside of our field (through reading) can offer tremenous benefits toward one's career and overall self.  

I grant that each student should have been exposed to such a lesson at home, early in life.  However as a friend once told me, "the best time to start a positive habit was ten years ago, the next best time is now."  

This post has become truly rewarding for my students and to me personally.  I can't share my appreciation enough for your sincere thoughts and recommendations.  I will look forward to hearing more of them.  Thank you all.
http://braxtonlewis.blogspot.com/

Braxton V. Lewis
Morgantown, WV   

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Tesla's Colorado Springs notebook.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

It's not a book, and may not be very applicable to civil folks but I came across this poem some time back, and thought it rather amusing but with some stuff that might make you stop and think.

Oh, sorry I can't find it on line now, but here's a link to a previous thread where I typed it out thread769-210372: The Sons of Martha by Kipling 4 Jun 08 23:23

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Well, if we're talking big picture here, how about "The Coolest Cross Sections Ever!" by Stephen Biesty.  Lamest book title imaginable, but truly, one of the most amazing books I've ever seen.  It contains Castle, Man-Of-War, Incredible Body, and also lots of buildings, the Grand Canyon, how wigs are made, Life in a Monastery, and on and on.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

KENAT - your reference to the 'Sons of Martha' is certainly appropriate; it should be familiar to any Canadian engineering graduates (or at least those who were vaguely sober at the Ritual of the Calling of the Engineer ceremony).

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

On the same note, I think that you can tell your students the old quote that says that "that who knows only engineering, not even engineering he knows".
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I'd recommend the Ringworld books by Larry Niven.
These are more scientifically thought out than Bob Shaws book on a similar concept.

I'd also recommend reading Neville Shute Norway's autobiographical work, Slide Rule. Amongst other things, he worked on the R100 airship and makes some cogent comments about the differences between privately financed (R100) and government financed (R101 which crashed and burned).

In fact biographies of engineers are often readable and encouraging.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

You book list and the books listed here should be made required reading by business majors.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

(OP)
A degree in engineering should be required for business majors.

Braxton V. Lewis
Morgantown, WV   

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

2
The Bible (NASB, King James, or New King James versions)
The Art of War by Sun Tzu
All books by Thomas Sowell
Walter Williams column
Robert Higgs
Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom
Fredrich Hayek's Road to Serfdom
The Declaration of Independence
The US Constitution
Federalist Papers
Anti-Federalist Papers
US Founding Fathers writings and not what is written about them.
Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand
www.wallbuilderslive.com podcasts to learn Early American History no longer taught
mysteries and novels to give your mind a break
Dilbert
The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck
To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Quote:

A degree in engineering should be required for business majors.  

Haha. Then we would have no business majors left on the world in 5 years.... a BA in business is a joke compared to engineering.  

peace
Fe

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Why buildings collapse
and
Why buildings stand up.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

"The Right Stuff."  It tells the real story of the first American Astronauts.  They are Real Human Beings, not the idealized version of our heros as usually presented to youth.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Two I would recommend:

"Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail", Hunter Thompson, it's hilarious and describes how so many swinish people make it to elective office.

"Dark Benediction", Miller, a short story, not a book; protagonist is a mechanical engineer dealing with things entirely alien. An empathetic mechanical engineer, what a concept.

"The Futurological Congress", Lem. Good ideas on how to deal with overpopulation, energy crisis and food shortage.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I counted THREE, so which TWO are you recommending and which ONE do you want us to ignore?

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Many of Neville Shute's novels feature engineers or technical people as protagonists.  All excellent reads. I have collected his complete works and reread them regularly.  An excellent storyteller who offers insight into engineering, business, and design.


 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Biographies of engineers are indeed a great resource.  Here are two of my favourites:

Sky Fever - Geoffrey DeHavilland (Auto)

This guy did it all!

Von Braun: Dreamer of Space, Engineer of War - Michael Neufeld

Von Braun faced a Voltarian dilemna...


Some thought provoking books for engineers & designers:

Engineering and the Mind's Eye - Eugene S. Ferguson

Structures: Or Why Things Don't Fall Down - J.E. Gordon

I also would suggest that engineers read about the ethics issues outlined by the Manhattan Project and the Nuremburg trials.  These were very important lessons for engineers out of WWII.  Sorry, I'm looking myself for seminal works on these topics.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I would recommend the book listed on my web page (see below). I would suggest that students pay particular attention to the preface. It describes the trend in metallurgy that is likely to continue to play out in the decades to come.

Maui

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Hello everybody:

Here is my two cents:

"A Journey to the Center of the Earth", "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea" and "Around the World in Eighty Days", all of them by Jules Verne.

It is really a challenge to facing up the science fiction versus the real world.

El que no puede andar, se sienta.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Manhattan project? Ethics?
"The voice of the dolphins" by Leo Slizard....

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

2
See the attached file.  

This one was sent to me by my current boss, and close friend.  He hasn't steered me wrong yet, especially when consulting with him regarding how to handle professional matters, e.g. how to word certain e-mail replies for sensitive subjects, etc.  

I find it to be a pretty good synopsis of how a budding engineer should handle his/her self, as it touches upon a number of viewpoints that are often overlooked or viewed differently by people with jobs of what are seemingly a purely technical nature.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

One of the most useful reference books that I have found over the years is Machinery's Handbook. It is loaded with useful engineering data, and is a surprisingly comprehensive book. You can view it here:

http://industrialpress.com/9780831128289

It is also available on Amazon.com, and numerous other websites.

Maui


 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

If you're going to inflict Ayn Rand upon yourself, "The Fountainhead" is a much better read than "Atlas".

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Funny you should say that, as I thought the same thing (though I did find them both quite enjoyable).  A fellow engineer suggested Atlas Shrugged because it was about engineering (sort of), but I found The Fountainhead to be more engrossing (barring Ayn's incessant need to describe a single building over 3-5 pages).  During one of my manic phases, I think I finished Fountainhead in a weekend.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I'll add Fountainhead to my list.  I thought I'd read it after Atlas but........  I'll not read the 3-5 pages describing a building.  I couldn't bear the strain.  winky smile

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Don't ask kids to read Ayn Rand until they understand what propaganda is.  Her novels aren't literature:  they're agitoprop for her idiotic "philosophy".  Her technical people are written in such a laughable, naive way that I'm fairly confident she'd never actually met one.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

moltenmetal, I must be strange because I saw reflections of current events in the US, when I read Atlas Shrugged in the late 90's.  I still see reflections today in current events.

I didn't view it as propaganda but her reasoning based upon her experiences in a communist country during her formative years.  I wish she had written as a Christian but her atheism would never have allowed that.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I would say that the works of Ayn Rand are being used as propaganda to a greater extent today than they have ever been used in the past.  When we have elected officials who proudly announce that they have made her works mandatory reading for their staffs and where other people in public positions espouse the virtues of the characters in her books as being the sort of people Americans should look to as role models or that the society as described therein should be what the country needs to be moving toward, then that makes it propaganda, whether YOU think it is or not.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
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To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

How on earth you could ever even TRY to rationalize Christianity with a "philosophy" which says that altruism is evil (more than that- she implies that it is also impossible) and that selfishness is virtuous and should be pursued whatever the costs to others may be, is a total mystery to me.

Her books are a good read, once you understand them in their proper context.  They're a textbook example of how you can be made to believe anything as long as you are suckered into buying illegitimate first premises.  Engineers and other technical people have been among the most vigorous supporters of ideological tyrants for similar reasons.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

You guys read way too much into it, IMO.  Can't you just enjoy the story for what it is?  If I wanted to worry so much about symbolism (beyond that in the work, for the work), I'd go back to high school English class.  It's a story... read it to take your mind off of the real world for a few hours.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Thanks for the understanding responses, JohnRBaker and moltenmetal.  smile  I realize you (plural you) don't know me and electronic communication is difficult.

I saw the contradictions with Christianity in Atlas.  I am not rationalizing her atheistic viewpoints with anything other than her experiences with communism.  I should clarify my statement with the overwhelming point that came across to me was the parallel I saw and still see with current events.  What I see public and private leaders do and say often leaves me dumbfounded.  After reading "Den of Thieves" by James B. Stewart, I concluded some CEO's need their heads examined.

My disabled brother lives with me so I know a little about altruism and its benefits for others.  I am the baby of the family and have had to help both of my siblings.  I don't mind and haven't complained.

Mr. Baker, I don't follow what others do, as a rule.  I suppose I should view the Bible and every other book I was required to read from a very young age forward as propaganda simply because they were required reading.  I don't hold to that opinion.  How can motivating people to be creative and work hard be harmful to others?  The Bible is very clear about work ethic in 2 Thess. 3:10, i.e., if you don't work, you don't eat.

There are people who should be working but choose not to because they know how to game the system and people.  I don't want to support people like that and I don't feel bad about it either.  I've been working hard since I was 6 years old.  It didn't kill me.  It won't kill them.  I know people who think I should give a lot more than I do because they think I can afford it.  What is that?

I've listened to pastors in the pulpit say things that raised my eyebrows because I could find no Biblical support for it.  Did I follow their direction, simply because they said I should?  No.  God gave me a brain and I use it to the best of my feeble abilities.

To get back on topic, I'll add "Den of Thieves" by James B. Stewart as a book to read.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Quote:

"I like cigarettes. . . . I like to think of fire held in a man's hand. Fire, a dangerous force, tamed at his fingertips. I often wonder about the hours when a man sits alone, watching the smoke of a cigarette, thinking. I wonder what great things have come from such hours. When a man thinks, there is a spot of fire alive in his mind--and it is proper that he should have the burning point of a cigarette as his own expression."

My favorite quote from Atlas Shrugged.

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Dan, I think the good books are those you read again and again and find new depths and hidden meanings.

It isn't just what the writer says that is of interest but the message they offer. It repays effort if you actually think about what is said or seen or portrayed.

For example, I just wish I knew more Russian history and could understand more of the subtle nuances of Bulgakov's "The Master and Margarita". I read it first and found it a very entertaining read. It was only during trips to Russia discussing it with our agent there that some of the hidden meanings and the ironies were explained which made it even more interesting and added a new dimension to the book.
It was one of those books written under the very noses of an oppressive regime and which managed to get its message past the censors unseen to a populace who saw the message.

A similar story with East German Rock and Roll.... Ostrock ...
This radio show:

Quote:

....uncovers a story that involves, the Stasi, disappearing musicians, lyrics with hidden meanings and music that was 'Western' in all but name.
.
The same with films like "The Seven Samurai".
After a repeat viewing or two you realise that the Samurai who die were all of them killed by rifle fire.... Kurasawa commenting on the effects of western technology on Japanese culture?  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Which was the main message in 'The Last Samurai' as well.

John R. Baker, P.E.
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RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Rand's "philosophy" (gag!) is hardly "hidden" in her works- it's a freaking CHARACTER.  Reading her novels for a nice little story is like reading Orwell's "Animal Farm" as if it were a children's book.

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Quote:

MacGyverS2000 (Electrical)    
12 Sep 11 15:11
You guys read way too much into it, IMO.  Can't you just enjoy the story for what it is?  If I wanted to worry so much about symbolism (beyond that in the work, for the work), I'd go back to high school English class.  It's a story... read it to take your mind off of the real world for a few hours.  

I agree.  It is fiction, after all.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

lacajun,

   Atlas Shrugged is fiction, but it is not remotely value neutral.

   Imagine ASME Y14.5-2009, the Movie!  (The book is too boring)  The GD&T expert heads out his front door in the morning, walks down his street, and stops to help a little old lady across the street.  On the other side of the street, he helps the police stop an old, traditional drafter from beating his wife.  I am still trying to figure out how to fit in the car chase...

               JHG

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Weren't we just having this conversation over in the Engineers on the Silver Screen and the Little Screen......... thread?

John R. Baker, P.E.
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RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

"If I wanted to worry so much about symbolism (beyond that in the work, for the work), I'd go back to high school English class. "

While to the discerning reader, that may be the case, there are clearly others who, upon reading such tripe, will take up the cause promoted by her books.  So, the symbolism is certainly there, whether you care about it or not.  However, if you don't care about it, you can't begin to understand the people who have incorporated such concepts into their beliefs and actions.

In many cases, this is the root philosophy building up to anti-union and anti-government sentiments.  And the fallacy there is the notion that everyone, when left to their own devices, are all budding John Galts.  But, that's clearly not the case, EVER, as demonstrated, over and over, throughout history.  The near slave labor conditions of the late 19th and early 20th centuries is what spurred the creation of unions.  These workers could never be John Galts, because they had ZERO power and ZERO resources.  And the people that ran these factories had might on their side.

Likewise, one can consider the American Indians, to be John Galt-like, and the lack of a common government that could command the total resources of the Indian tribes again allowed those with "might," i.e., the US Army, to take those lands away from the Indians and "give" them to the settlers that moved in.  Of course, it's unclear whether the Indians could have ever won, given that they were numerically outnumbered, but, they probably could have made it a lot more difficult, e.g., the defeat of Custer.

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RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Might just as well read Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, or any Von Daniken, The CLub of Rome reports, etc.
They all had a message which persuaded people that black was white.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

And some would offer the same observation, and warning, about Darwin, Orwell or Huxley...  

John R. Baker, P.E.
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RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

JohnRBaker,

   My understanding is that Darwin was a very good, professional scientist.  His work does not sound ideological.

   You are absolutely correct about George Orwell.  I strongly recommend Decline of the English Murder, a collection of essays he wrote.  It is easy to forget that Orwell was a left-wing socialist.

   I think Orwell was way more observant than Ayn Rand.  His fiction rises way above the melodrama of Atlas Shrugged, especially, Animal Farm.

   On the other hand, Orwell was writing about the politics of the 1930s and 1940s.  The bloody minded, lawless politcal ideologies of the 1930s were discredited by WWII, and they did not survive the collapse of the Soviet Union.  His essays are a good read, and essays obviously are an opinionated medium.  I don't think his fiction is politically relevant anymore.   

               JHG

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

My comment about Darwin was in light of current events.  After all, Newton was also a "very good, professional scientist" but can you imagine a group of political wannabees standing on a stage, denying that 'gravity' was an 'unproven science'?

John R. Baker, P.E.
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RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Quote (drawoh):

lacajun,

   Atlas Shrugged is fiction, but it is not remotely value neutral.

I never said it was not.  BTW, I have friends, who make the same comment about the Bible and are atheist.  They believe all kinds of stuff written about Jesus but not one word He said, which I find interesting.  They also wonder why American society and culture has coarsened over the last two or three decades.  But, they outright reject the value of the Bible.  Man came up with the Ten Commandments and other "things" they deem worthy in the Bible.  I've had those conservations with them often.

I don't view too many things with people as value neutral.  People will take up causes for all kinds of reasons and some are completely unprovoked by anything other than their own prejudices and biases.  I've had to stop some friends from railing on and on about Obama.  I am Republican and would never vote for him but it is completely unwarranted on my part to not defend his character and ethnicity, when being attacked for any reason.  I disagree with his world view but that does not mean he is a man lacking in character and that his black heritage should be attacked.  If I didn't defend his character and heritage, my inaction would be just as despicable as my friends' actions.

Quote (JohnRBaker):

After all, Newton was also a "very good, professional scientist" but can you imagine a group of political wannabees standing on a stage, denying that 'gravity' was an 'unproven science'?

I suspect that will follow their deficit spending philosophies.  winky smile

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Quote (JohnRBaker):


...  After all, Newton was also a "very good, professional scientist" but can you imagine a group of political wannabees standing on a stage, denying that 'gravity' was an 'unproven science'?

    If someone claims that gravity is "just a theory", you can ask them to demonstrate what nonsense it is.  Reality TV seems to be full of people trying this very thing.

               JHG

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

drawoh:  Orwell's fiction is still very relevant- as a cautionary tale.  No right-winger could have written Animal Farm with any credibility, but a socialist who fought as a volunteer in the Spanish Civil War certainly could do so.  Unlike Rand, Orwell wrote true  literature- something genuinely informative about the human condition.

lacajun:  you can't rationalize Christianity with a book by an author whose underlying "philosophy" is that selfishness is virtuous.  This viewpoint permeates her fiction.  Jesus preached the exact opposite.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

moltenmetal, I am not rationalizing Christianity with any other book.  The Bible is my filter for everything in life.  The God of the Bible is greater than Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged or any other book.  He created it all thus He owns it all and we've been very poor stewards of His creation.  He raises people up and He brings us down.  Jesus Christ alone provides for our salvation because He alone is the unblemished lamb.

I view the Bible as completely non-fiction, i.e., the infallible, inerrant word of God, the mind of Jesus Christ, God breathed, etc.  It is the best and only guidebook for living life.  It is the revelation of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.  Why would anyone with those beliefs rationalize it with any other book and especially one from an atheist?  Why do you insist that is what I am doing?  You don't know me beyond a few posts here.  We've not sat down and discussed life with the Bible open before us.  I am open to that, if you are.

I view Ayn Rand's books as fiction.  I know people who view Atlas Shrugged as the greatest book ever written and the Bible as irrelevant.  I know some of those people live together as man and wife, or have, without the benefit of marriage.  I view that as sin; therefore, I will not vote or support a man like Gary Johnson as a presidential candidate or any other public office.  We don't need a man in the highest office of the USA parading his sin before us.  I have friends who sin to this day as a way of lifestyle but I don't let them influence my thinking and decisions.  My thinking and decisions are between me and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am clearly and unequivocally on the right.  I am a social and fiscal conservative.  I have learned that is what works and that is what is in the Bible.  Socialism is not in the Bible I study.  I understand Progressives are trying to change that but ultimately they will fail.

I have given above and beyond my 10% tithes for years.  I've helped people a lot more than I should have because it enabled them and aided their irresponsibility.  I've seen others do the same thing.  I believe in helping those who need a helping hand but it has to be extended very prudently.  If I hadn't been so helpful to others, I would be in much better financial shape today; however, my spiritual life would be in a shambles.  I tithe today even though I have zero positive cash flow.  Do you think for one minute I believe selfishness is a virtue?

My disabled brother lives with me rent free because he can't afford to live anywhere else.  He has a sizable portion of my home.  He can use anything I have including my motorcycle.  I am working with him on his problems in addition to providing a free place to live.  I cook for him sometimes and especially so when his pain level is high.  Is that someone who rationalizes selfishness is virtuous with the Bible?

I understand we are to be friendly, charitable, encouraging, etc.  I also understand we are to spread the Gospel Message, which is a mandate from Jesus Christ.  I also understand I have limitations in many ways.  I understand a lot more than there is room here to write.

I also believe you are attributing something to me that is false and I would ask that you stop.  I do not subscribe to selfishness as a virtue.  I take exception to your claim that I am and do.  Indeed, I find it offensive.  I am not angry with you and would meet you for coffee, if you lived in the Denver metroplex, to discuss this issue.  Yet, I do think you are being unfriendly towards me.  That, moltenmetal, is a problem for you not me.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

lacajun, I'm sincerely sorry for having offended you.  I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

moltenmetal, your apology is accepted.  If you are ever in the Denver area, let me know.  I'd be glad to buy you a coffee or a brew so we can solve all the world's problems over our libations.  I am sure you are a gentle person and meant no harm.  I do enjoy your posts, wisdom, and wit.  smile

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Hi

Is there anything available for FREE i.e online reading?

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

EagerLearner,

   Project Gutenburg

               JHG

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I'm surprised I didn't think to include this earlier: Anything by Edward De Bono but especially anything on lateral thinking.

The tricks people use to mislead others include such things as presenting only partial options. For example:
"Is it better to be poor and happy or rich and unhappy?"
This offers only two choices and many people respond only within the limitations imposed by the question.
The best way to answer is to identify the full range of options which includes also "poor and unhappy" and "rich and happy".

Lateral thinking suggests that problem solving should look at the most desirable outcome as an objective and find ways to meet it.
There is a very good example, "The Two Pebbles" in one of the books involving the story of a young girl faced with the problem of the moneylender and her grandfather's gambling debts.
(the story is slightly different at the link included but the answer is the same. I suggest anyone trying this take a long time to think how the deviousness of the moneylender gave her a sure fire solution before jumping to the answer.)

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

jmw:  yep, an education in the fundamentals of logic and rhetoric would be helpful.  Most of us only come to this the hard way.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Most political polls are conducted this way... do you like our candidate and what he's doing to help, or do you like their candidate and what he's doing to hurt?  Those with intelligence will see through the ruse and refuse to answer, and those without may need to be led to water (too many options may confuse them).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I went to a Jesuit university that required all to take a philosphy elective.  One of the electives was "Logic".  Engineering majors were not permitted to taek that course to fulfill the requirement, as it was deemed to easy.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Of course, knowing how to put propositions to management is a great benefit.
Never give them a yes no option, always a this or that choice and then load the report so they choose the right answer.
So maybe they also should watch the entire "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister" series.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Also young engineers need to develop their presentation skills (someone mentioned Rhetoric) overcoming the natural fear of speaking before an audience.  This is critical since many really good ideas have been passed over by management when the owner of the idea lacked the skills needed to convince the decision makers (the guys who write the checks) that their idea is worth investing in or is the superior choice when there are competing ones being considered. When is was in engineering school some 40+ year ago, they added during my final year a new mandatory class in 'Report Presentation', where we were introduced to not only the media and materials being used (this was before PowerPoint) for making presentation collateral such as overhead slides, posters, props (models) and then how to make the presentation itself.  We did have some early video recording equipment so we were able to review and critique our own 'performance'.

Also my final term's Design Engineering project required that we make an oral presentation to our professor and our peers, where we were subject to being asked questions from anyone (and if your peers didn't step up to the plate the professor always had a set of questions to fill the 'dead air').  Now we could use any material or props that you wanted (this dovetailed nicely with what you had hopefully learned in the 'Report Presentation' class that you had just taken, hopefully the term before) but this stand-up presentation was a significant part of your final grade (for the record, I got an A+ in the class, the first A+ given by this professor in what was already a rather long career, but I had been working as a draftsman during my previous summers so unlike many of my peers, I may have had an unfair advantage with respect to having seen engineers in action and observing the ones who were most effective in getting their ideas sold).  

John R. Baker, P.E.
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RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Not sure that's an unfair advantage John, having the sense to find a job somewhat related to your field of study, and being able to apply what you learned there to your studies seems reasonably fair.  Unusually sensible for a youngster sure, but unfair, I don't think so.

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RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

If most students are keen to work with high tech machines and make high tech things, perhaps they would benefit by understanding how people made the things they needed using basic equipment and whatever materials were to hand.
A very fine illustration of the ingenuity of earlier generations in the USA is found in the Foxfire books Foxfire, museum and books
They may be inspired enough to want to make some of the things for themselves just to see if they can make what their ancestors made.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Foxfire book five is perhaps the most interesting, covering such topics as:

Ironmaking and Blacksmithing
  • BLAST FURNACES
  • BELLOWS
  • FIREPLACE POKERS
  • FORGE SHOVELS
  • FROES
  • COWBELLS
  • HORSESHOES
Gunmaking
  • BLACK POWDER
  • BARREL MAKING
  • SILER LOCKS
  • FLINTLOCK RIFLES
  • MODERN GUNSMITHS
  • TURKEY SHOOTS
  • THE NMLRA

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

"I don't think his [Orwell's]fiction is politically relevant anymore."

Really? Animal Farm may have been about the Communist, however, the warning "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others" will always be true.

"...Darwin was a very good, professional scientist..."

The trouble is society can't seem to make a distinction between the science of evolution and the philosophy of evolution.

Here's an interesting book: "New Proofs for the Existence of God: Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy" by Robert Spitzer.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

bridgebuster,

   Again, I strongly recommend Decline of the English Murder.  The book is a collection of essays, mostly book reviews.  It shows you where George Orwell's head was at as he prepared to write 1984 and Animal Farm.  His pieces on Dickens, Salvadore Dali and Rudyard Kipling are worthwhile reads.  

   It is also a good look at the intellectual culture of the WWII period.  People had a lot of enthusiasm for brute force, and very little concern for the consequences.  This made possible the Stalinist purges, the Holocaust, and the Cultural Revolution and Pol Pot.  

   I do not think we face tolitarians anymore.  The Chinese Communists are still with us, but their leaders are people who survived the Cultural Revolution.  They know.  

   Right now, we are dealing with religious extremists, objectivisits and other intellectual types who are too convinced of their own correctness.   

               JHG

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

The AGW types. Orwell couldn't have foreseen them and the money making bonanza they have made of it.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Quote (drawoh):


It is also a good look at the intellectual culture of the WWII period.  People had a lot of enthusiasm for brute force, and very little concern for the consequences.  This made possible the Stalinist purges, the Holocaust, and the Cultural Revolution and Pol Pot.

To say nothing of firebombing Dresden and various Japanese cities, or even the rational behind using nuclear weapons to end the war.

Although I'll have to admit that with respect to the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the people working on the Manhattan Project, while they understood the dangers of nuclear radiation they were totally unprepared for the consequences of fallout as that concept never crossed their minds.

In the books I've read on the subject the consensus among the people at Los Alamos was that anyone close enough to the blast who could have suffered from the effects of radiation would have been killed instantly and since the blasts were air-bursts there was this idea that actual radioactive debris would be minimal.  In fact when the reports first started to come in concerning people becoming ill and dying not from the blast itself but something else, it was suggested that this was simply the Japanese government fabricating these claims so as to make the case that the United States was using chemical or biological weapons against civilians in the hope of gaining some sympathy with the rest of world when it came time to negotiate a peace treaty.  It was not until American medical personnel were able to enter the area after hostilities had ceased before it was confirmed that this was NOT the result of some bio-chemical event but rather was linked directly to the effects of the bombs themselves.

While it's only my personal opinion, I think it was the sudden awareness of the consequences of 'fallout' that turned many of the scientists who worked on the original Manhattan Project into anti-nuke activitists.  In other words, if nuclear bombs had turned out to be nothing more than just highly efficient and effective weapons based on their albeit horrendous blast damage and nothing else, I think people's opinions of them would have been very different.  Later there was research into 'clean bombs', and I even understand that some of the early work with Hydrogen Bombs, which were 'fusion' weapons as opposed to Atominc Bombs being 'fission' weapons, was based on the hope of them being cleaner in terms of fallout, which of course proved to be incorrect.  

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
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Industry Sector
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To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

We should remember that like many innovations, there was a race to the atomic bomb.
The German work is probably well more well known but that Germany was sharing technology with Japan and that Japan had its own program, most people either don't know or do not acknowledge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nuclear_weapon_program

A lot of people tend to neglect this when they condemn the US dropping these bombs.

If the US was not the first or chose not to drop the bombs, what might have been the outcome?
Most people do not include a scenario where Japan was able to complete their program and explode an atomic bomb either over the US Mainland (what kind of delivery system? submarine maybe?) or over a concentration of US forces in the Pacific? or perhaps symbolically, Pearl Harbour again?

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Well I was going to include balloon because that was a delivery system the Japanese had tried with more conventional munitions, but a system very susceptible to the vagaries of the wind and would it carry an atom bomb?
And while it may be feasible to saturate the air with balloons and conventional bombs such that one or two might get through, you probably only have one atom bomb or two maybe, and you need a more certain way to deliver it or them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon
300 out of 9000+ reaching the USA is not a very good system.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Now please, I never suggested that Truman made the wrong decision when he decided to go ahead with using the two bombs that we had in our arsenal at that moment.

My comment was to point out that there was feelings in this country during the war, particularly in the case of Japan, that ANY use of force was justified.  However, I believe that the President and the military leaders were taking into consideration the human cost, on both sides, which would have to be paid if we were forced to invade Japan's homeland (we already had a taste of that on Okinawa whom many Japanese considered one of their 'home islands') so they were making a 'shorten the war' decisions.  That being said, I suspect that the man on the street would have taken a very different view of this.  If people had been aware of the existence of atomic weapons, even with respect to the horrific effects of fallout and lingering radiation sickness, the average joe-sixpack would have 'voted' to use the bombs on Japan, even if they were about to surrender on their own.  It was a combination of revenge for Pearl Harbor, as well as the idea that the 'Yellow' race was inferior, if not even sub-human, and therefore it was not the same as if this were a decision to nuke Berlin or Rome.

I still believe that if the scientists, the President and the military leaders knew exactly what was going to happen with respect to the civilians not killed in the blast but who succumbed to or suffered for years from the effects of the radioactive fallout that perhaps the suggestion that a 'demonstration' blast would be more appropriate would have been given more consideration, which is what many scientists had assumed was going to be the course of action.  And remember, many of them were still thinking that it may have to be used against Germany and that would have presented larger moral problems then if they had known that Japan would be the only target right from the start.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Well, the fire balloons were fairly 'cheap & cheerful'.  Perhaps a Rolls Royce version could have had a higher reliability than ~ 10%, but yeah fundamentally a fairly unreliable way to deliver a very expensive warhead.  (Just because only $300 were detected doesn't mean more didn't make it.)

On the other hand, a nuke explosion almost anywhere in the US would have been pretty alarming.

However, way off topic.

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RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

John,
my point was that, post war, a lot of people have judged this as if the US and the US alone had a nuclear weapons program. They tend, with their rose tinted glasses, to discount the worries about what might have happened to POWs in Japan had Japan been invaded as must surely have had to happen otherwise and they tend to not consider that had the US not used the bombs and the Japanese Atom bomb program been more advanced allowing them to bomb their enemies. AT that time I think we should agree, the Japanese would have had less compunction about using the bomb even had they been aware of the fallout issues.

On the other hand what I don't know is how aware the US and Truman were of the Japanese program and those elusive WMDs... certainly the allies were aware of the German program and destroyed their heavy water plants.
Certain too is that they were aware of the Japanese scientific capability. the only real uncertainty would have been how advanced their program was.
Remember too that Japan had access to a lot of territory to find raw materials and they could not be certain that they hadn't found some sources in China, for example.

In a very true sense, the nuclear arms race had begun early in the war if not before though many people seem to think the only Atom bomb development was the Manhattan project and that the nuclear arms race didn't begin till the cold war.

No doubt though that you are correct about the anti Japanese feelings at the time and we should also remember a certain US general who wanted to drop the big one on North Korea.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

PS I suggested submarines carefully.
The ability of mini-subs to enter well guarded harbours was well demonstrated during the war by such as Buster Crab and the Italians.
The Japanese might also have tried to insert a minisub into Pearl Harbour, San Diego, San Francisco etc.
Indeed, in 1941 they did attempt to enter Pearl Harbour with one.
http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/HURL/midget.html
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2009/12/07/Researchers-may-have-found-WWII-mini-sub/UPI-88961260188651/
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

drawoh -

Let me clarify my statement on Animal Farm. I wasn't referring to communists, fascists, etc.

I was thinking of the political climate in the US with too many ideologues - as you put it: religious extremists, objectivisits and other intellectual types who are too convinced of their own correctness.

To me, these types are as much of a danger to the nation as a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

The Irregulars was an interesting read.  Roald Dahl and other Brit officers (including Ian Fleming) spying on the US before and during WW2.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

One that I'm glad my professor made us read was " The Practical Oceanographer. http://fermi.jhuapl.edu/book/  

Deals with what it takes working offshore, how to plan before implementation, and dealing with uncertainty.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Young people might enjoy "Bold Fresh Piece of Humanity" by Bill O'Reilly. He really captures what typical American life was like in the 50's and 60's.  

There is a factual error in the book: Gerald Ford wasn't the Speaker of the House, but I'll cut him some slack. After all, any one who remembers the movie "Not of this Earth" (the original version not the two remakes)deserves a break.  

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I fully agree with JohnRBaker regarding the presentation skills. Here's what I suggest in this context:

Presentation Zen: Simple Ideas on Presentation Design and Delivery

Your students might find the following free short "ebook" useful to get rid of boring power point presentations:

http://school.salescrunch.com/free-ebook-designing-presentations-that-sell/

In a general perspective, I recommend "Unwritten Laws of Engineering" by W. J. King.
Mechanical Engineering magazine has published a summary of this book in a series of three articles starting in its October 2010 issue. I'm sure that you've got this magazine in your library. Here's a scan of the first page of the first article to give a taste:
 
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=2ad70473-7483-490d-9490-18ffbbbd3de4&file=Engineering_Lessons.pdf

Good readings!

 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I just finished reading '13 Things that Don't Make Sense' and it was very interesting and thought provoking, although I didn't quite agree with the author's topic for Chapter 10: SEX: There are better ways to reproduce winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I'd add literature, lots of it, anything away from engineering, especially psychology. That'll make your Engineers nice to people to talk to. Well, here is an incentive for the male students: tell them that they can get laid more often in their life if they knew more about literature and psychology, etc.
Try Balzac, Montesquieu, Dostoevsky, etc.

And, Every engineer should get a therapy as soon as they get out of school or at least as soon as they get married. We Engineers tend to get into more divorces than any other trade, college graduate level i.e.
We tend to think we know it all, when we don't know s..*

I wish I did, I would've avoided a Psychotherapy late in life. I should have gotten my therapy early on in my life. I wish I knew more about psychology.
  

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Actually, if you rank occupations by divorce rate, engineers are pretty low on the list.  Dancers and bartenders are near the top at about 40%.  Most types of engineers are closer to 10-15%.  

But I do second your suggestion that engineers read literature.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I liked Good to Great by J Collins. It had an objective approach about it. I alsi think that the Hitchiker's Guide has a lot of good philosophy and some great humor.

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Quote (cry22):

Well, here is an incentive for the male students: tell them that they can get laid more often in their life if they knew more about literature and psychology, etc.

We Engineers tend to get into more divorces than any other trade, college graduate level i.e.  We tend to think we know it all, when we don't know s..*
I can't help but see some irony here.  Maybe someone convincing you of the former leads to the latter...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

I strongly suggest everybody numerate read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre. Although it is directly concerned with the abuse of statistics by the health industry in the UK, the lessons apply to many fields. Very easy to read.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

Quote (cry22):


And, Every engineer should get a therapy as soon as they get out of school or at least as soon as they get married. We Engineers tend to get into more divorces than any other trade, college graduate level i.e.

I don't know, we'll be married 45 years this next June, but then I did take some psych classes my senior year when I needed a few more 'humanities' electives to graduate.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
UG/NX Museum:   http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Suggested Readings for Engr Students

On Speaking Well by Peggy Noonan.

It's not political so no political comments are needed.  It's a good read on how to make a speech, which some engineers are called to do sometimes.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

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