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Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?
5

Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)
If one had the ability to quickly memorize NFPA codes/standards perfectly by heart and completely understand it all also, is there any high paying jobs for such a person that would utilize multiple skills, or is it best to specialize in one or two areas (such as sprinkler design, fire hazards) even if you had a superhuman memory?

Thanks!


(yes I know that other careers would be wiser for such a person)

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

If you could do it yes you would be valuable

The job.    Fire protection engineer!!!!!  

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

With a name like laminarpath your want Bouernelli to behave for your lifestyle. Good luck when Re > 2300.

When Re is > 2300 + 1 tell me your life adventure.

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)
@stookeyfpe

what? blood flow through capillaries is laminar, so xD

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

"(yes I know that other careers would be wiser for such a person)"

Yeah, move to Vegas and count cards at the blackjack table.

I have found that the difficulty lies more in the interpretation and application of the codes than simply remembering what they say.  The index tells you where the specific section is, so let the book keep track of it.

On the flip side, you'd probably ace NFSA's Top Tech Challenge every other year.  



  

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

When I started in the industry, my boss required me to read NFPA 13 front to back several times and basically memorize everything in it.  He said he wanted me to be able to always have a good idea of what was in the book, but also where to find it when I needed it.

That being said, when a new edition comes out, I usually read it 2-3 times front to back just to pick up on what is new and what changed.  However, as SKD said, correct application of the standard is more important than head knowledge of the standard.  If you know that you must use a minimum 11.2k orifice in storage with densities of 0.34 or greater and actually apply it, then you are better off.  I use that as an example because a set of plans came to me today with a requirement for K8 sprinklers and 0.35 density.  This is a case where the designer did not know, nor apply the entirety of NFPA 13.

As you start your education and career, I would recommend that you do hand calculations for your first few projects.  Don't do it for a gridded system, but if you have a tree system, I highly recommend hand calcs to complete the project.  That is one thing that my first boss made me do and I am very grateful.  I was not happy at the time, but it gave me a much greater understanding of the hydraulic calculation process, instead of just pick a pipe size and hit a calculate button.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)

Quote (TravisMack):

If you know that you must use a minimum 11.2k orifice in storage with densities of 0.34 or greater and actually apply it, then you are better off.  I use that as an example because a set of plans came to me today with a requirement for K8 sprinklers and 0.35 density.  This is a case where the designer did not know, nor apply the entirety of NFPA 13.

Is this not in the manuals/handbooks to memorize?
If not how do you come to understand such a requirement.

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)

Quote:

I have found that the difficulty lies more in the interpretation and application of the codes than simply remembering what they say.  The index tells you where the specific section is, so let the book keep track of it.

Could you give me an example of difficulty interpreting the code? I've looked at it and my problem is I don't understand the terminology yet, but I assumed that once I understood the concepts and lingo that reading the manual would be clear cut..

And I'm guessing that most of the difficulty of applying the code would be figuring out the most optimal design that accounts for cost (including projected labor cost), is up to code, and fits.. right? Is there anything else?

The type of memory I'm talking about here is one like you would have if you were asked a question or presented with a problem and you had memorized relevant information or the answer itself sometime previously. For example, we all have a great amount of learned skills that are not at the forefront of our attention all at once, but once called upon, the memory is instant. For example when you come to a red light and wish to make a right turn - a set of instructions runs through your brain from memory, such as:

Stop at the thick white line>
look both ways for obstructions such as cars coming or people crossing the street>
make sure there isn't a 'No right turn on red' sign>

if all above is true, decide to turn right on red unless:
an emergency vehicle with lights is coming from either direction>
view is obstructed and cannot safely foresee incoming traffic>

if above conditions are met, wait for green light..

most of these instructions never cross our mind until we need to use them, especially the rare situational cases, but it's like a chain reaction to a trigger. the trigger is the need to turn right on red, which generates past memorized behavior or instructions pertaining to turning right on red.

text memorization works exactly the same way once you convert all concepts/constructs/words/definitions in a text to vivid mental images that convey specific meanings to you, then learn to repeat the identical vivid image later to reproduce the chain reaction (this is perfected by doing it all the time).

human memory naturally does this in the 3d physical world, just as it happens in a human when navigating traffic, and so conceptual information is just a matter of visualizing it vividly enough and similarly enough to trigger the brain to reproduce a pattern it has already generated before during the first visual effort (memorization).

most people use a combination of their senses which is not as effective as visual in almost all areas. most people use sub-vocalization, for example repeating a phrase or string of numbers over and over until it becomes a song-pattern, which the first sound of the 'song' or annoying melody triggers the rest of it. still, this usually also incorporates the mental visualization of at least part of the memorized password, phone number, or phrase.

In ancient times storytellers could recite extremely long stories, because they played like movies in their heads, with strong visual thoughts, and not reciting things like a robot with no understanding of what they were memorizing.

That is why it's easy to memorize something like this:
The fox was on fire, and jumped into the pool.
(And repeat this an hour later from memory)
Than this (an hour later):
101 341 145 11 7010, 011 00122 9322 843236

One string creates a movie in your head, one doesn't.
If you think about a fox an hour later, then you will probably remember he jumped into the pool, if you visualized the fox the same way as you did the first time.

If you visualize or sound out '101', the first number in the memory sequence, the rest of it doesn't come to you because you don't have a good mental construct for the number '101' like you do for fox.

So what all this means is that the memorization I'm talking about isn't memorizing the words or definitions of things like a robot taperecorder, but memorizing the concepts that the words/definitions represent. So that if you were presented with designing a fire suppression system for a storage room, every bit of memorized information related to your saved mental image of a 'storage room' would come flooding to your mind - not rehearsed verses.

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

As said and said good application of nfpa is more important

This comes from experience and attending alot of classes

You could memorize how to fly a plane, but until you get it off the ground you ain't a pilot
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Given the length and detail of your post, maybe you should be a writer, not a sprinkler man.

Notice I said "I have found...", meaning it's my experience.  Probably not the case for someone as astute and mentally gifted as yourself, or anyone else for that matter.

I'm 23 years old, and only graduated 2 1/2 years ago.  Seems like for every time I learn something new, it means I've been doing five other things wrong.  

Knowing the code, and being able to regurgitate it at will is definitely going to help you.  But....  

Only when you stay up all night putting the final touches on a project, to have the office jockey-hating journeyman fitter call you up three weeks later and kindly inform you that your material order was missing skyhooks, because you, the code memorizing college graduate, drew 30 lines across an area that doesn't even have a ceiling, will I say welcome to the world of Sprinkler Contracting.

 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)
I can't memorize like that, I just know someone who can (that's how he explained it to me and even though I'm not like him, I could make myself spend a lot of time trying to emulate him because I have a long time before I'll be doing this for a job)

I believe what you all are saying but I don't understand what you mean by a good application of nfpa. Is there anything I could do to learn to apply nfpa better without waiting for school to be over, waiting to pass certification, waiting to be hired, waiting to get stuck on the job at 2am on my own time with no help and it's too late to correct my years of wasted waiting instead of learning how to apply or interpret the code.

 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Get some experience. Really there is no replacement.

If you were familiar with ALL the standards you should work for a consulting firm as a fire protection engineer if you have an engineering diploma. Getting licensed would be the next step.

As a sprinkler designer I've only got about 5 volumes memorized to a good working knowledge but I still go back to them regularly to verify I'm giving good directions to people.
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

That requirement about K factor is in the standard.  Does that mean it gets applied properly every time? NO!  I have seen several times where some one tried to use the room design in an Ordinary Hazard area, but did not have the proper ratings on the walls.  Again, information is in the standard, but not being properly applied.

I am sure that all of us on here could come up with several examples of where things were not properly applied.

The ability to learn to apply this is from time and experience.  I also coach kickboxing and grappling.  I can teach you all of the technique in the world, but if you haven't spent time on the mat, you are not going to know how to use it in competition.  Learning proper application of anything is much more than head knowledge.  It is from experience of doing something and finding out if it works great in the real environment instead of theoretical environments.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

how old are you???

find a sprinkler company that will let you tag along for no pay, both in the field and with the designers


what they are say is there is more than one way to do something, and sometimes you have to take other routes to get somewhere. If you do not know those other routes, which sometimes you only get from experience, than you maybe wasting time and money, which can cost a company or cost them a job.  

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?


It is a big part of being an FPE but the real skill is applying that knowledge in a practical way, supporting a design team and defending your design to owners and AHJs.    That implementation requires considerable written and verbal communication skills, alot of tact, and a slice of humble pie.    It is not for everyone!    

I am an AHJ but I would really prefer doing design, so that maybe a few days a month have conflict.   I deal with pissed off uneducated "know it alls" daily and the only thing worse than their ignorance is their attitudes.   Don't recommend this route, stay in design.

Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.  

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

OMG

This forum is getting better and better.
Who the hell cares if you remember codes by heart or not. It sound good but it only pays if you work for yourself. No company cares about that unless if it is a fire protection company that plays lots of Jeopardy.

Good Luck Filling the blanks

 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)
The topic was created because I figured there must be someone somewhere who has to check to make sure the sprinkler designers are doing their job right, the architect is doing his job right, the electricians are doing their job right, etc. I figured either this is a network of people working together all specialized to check one of these areas or a single person checking them all. if it was a single person, he would have to have a lot of experience and hand in hand a lot of memory about a bunch of different codes, standards, concepts of all these different fields. I thought this might be more lucrative than designing sprinklers so I was asking if such a job was out there, that could be branched off to after being a sprinkler designer for a while (so a higher paying position than NICET IV sprinkler guy would have).

Then someone said that mere memory of the regulations and guidelines about the fire protection field isn't the problem but the practical application of it is. I still don't know of any examples of the elusive practical application aspect of this profession that you couldn't derive from the guidelines that NFPA, NFSA, and various writers who have years of background in this field have written books on - but I'm sure such examples exist.

My assumption was that being able to remember and understand the codes better would result in making less initial mistakes (saving time, preventing costly modifications later), less searching in the manuals or asking questions to others (saving time). Since time is money and preventing costly modifications or total disasters saves a lot of money I saw this as a no brainer that it would be valuable to employers if you knew your stuff.

I also don't see a better way to defend a position to owners/AHJs than showing them the reasoning behind your decision referenced with the code. You could put is as nicely as possible and give them pie, beer, and dinner but in the end you're going to have to either prove to them that the way you are proposing is the best, or that theirs violates some rule or code and you can't do it their way without them authorizing it in writing to cover your hide saying you warned them.. (this was how it was explained to me).
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)

Quote:

That requirement about K factor is in the standard.  Does that mean it gets applied properly every time? NO!  I have seen several times where some one tried to use the room design in an Ordinary Hazard area, but did not have the proper ratings on the walls.  Again, information is in the standard, but not being properly applied.

I am sure that all of us on here could come up with several examples of where things were not properly applied.

The ability to learn to apply this is from time and experience.

Thank you for this example, but why would someone who has memorized that particular requirement fail to apply it every time? Wouldn't doing so be a failure of remembering to do it (memory) rather than failure of application?

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Quote:

still don't know of any examples of the elusive practical application aspect of this profession that you couldn't derive from the guidelines that NFPA, NFSA, and various writers who have years of background in this field have written books on - but I'm sure such examples exist.

Try dealing with field modifications due to unexpected issues created by conditions not known or provided to the design professional.  Try dealing with stuff that the code/standard does not address (beyond the scope.  There is more to just knowing the digits.  Know where to find it, how to interpret it, apply it and evaluate it.  Have your friend get good E & O and go out and make himself/herself millions. :)

 

"Fire suppression is a failure in prevention"

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)
out of curiosity what is E & O?

if there are unexpected field modifications then it would simply require a partial/full redesign right? how does that seperate rookies from experienced layouters?

what is an example of something beyond the scope of the code/standard

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)

Quote:

Know where to find it, how to interpret it, apply it and evaluate it.

Isn't this all due to memory?
For example where to find it: Memorizing page numbers or the index along with the complete information
How to interpret it: memorizing the lingo and definitions specific in the codes/manuals
Apply it: recalling from memory the various rules/regulations during designing, and the design examples of others in books such as the the ones in various fire sprinkler help books on nfpa and nfsa sites
evaluate: recalling from memory if things are in order or out of order when looking at a drawing, etc

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

I´ve taken several NFPA code courses and in all of them I have learned  that the code does not include the real "know how".

For example, read NFPA70 and you will see that if you are not a real electrical engineer it is useless to memorize it. On the other hand, if you are a good electrical engineer you can understand well what the code tries to rule, and memorizing it would be nice ability.

Of course there are some NFPA standards that include more information, recommendation,drawings, in addition to the rules, that would make you fell that you have the grab of the know how, but be careful, you can find yourself on embarrassing situation if you pretend to be a real expert only based on the code.

I think about your question a little as if somebody was asking if memorizing the Bible would make help you to be a good christian. It all depends...

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

So how old are you????????


The best I have been around open the book to check thier own work

There are to many variables, exceptions to try it without the book

You have to start at the bottom and learn

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

If you think this job is easy just read most of the posts on this site

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)

Quote:

I´ve taken several NFPA code courses and in all of them I have learned  that the code does not include the real "know how".

Still curious as to an example of 'know-how' that you can't get out of books on the subject
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

You are not going to learn how to coordinate pipe routing and sprinkler layout in a busy mechanical room in the sub-fab area of a clean room through a text book.  It takes doing it multiple times to learn the best routes to take in order to provide the most effective layout while maintaining all of the requirements of the standards and codes.  That is your real world example.  Sure, I can say that heads need to be in X,Y,Z locations to get proper coverage.  Now, through in 3 layers of ductwork, some FRP duct that requires sprinklers inside of the duct, the typical sprinkler contract where everyone is installed when the sprinkler guy is awarded the contract and you can see where real world experience will come in to play.  I can know exactly where the sprinklers need to be to get proper coverage, but how do I get water from the underground supply to each of those sprinklers?  There is not a text in the world, that I am aware of, that will tell you HOW to do that.

I am happy that you are going down this career path.  A career in fire sprinkler systems has been good to me and my family. I often encourage others to consider this career. However, it is not just a cookie-cutter job of applying standard a.b.c.d.e.f to each project.  While you are in school, all of your work is going to be theoretical and you don't have bosses breathing down your back because you used 8 extra elbows to get some where when a different route was available. Or, you don't have a fitter calling you saying that you hit the beam and duct and he is not even out of the riser room yet.  That is real world experience that teaches you these things.  No amount of code memorizing will get you there.  I have a pretty amazing memory and if I can't recall the exact wording of a particular topic, because I have read the standards numerous times, I can usually tell you what part of the page the diagram or table I am looking for is located at.  However, that kind of knowledge just lets me answer questions faster in a meeting.  It does not help me get water from the underground to the sprinklers any faster.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

For example.

On a NFPA 13 sprinkler connections to water supplies. What valve arrangement to use or what accessories shall be included?

It depends a lot on the specific case. The code includes a drawing with examples but not a rule. The manufacturers propose several technologies to suit the code rules, the designers have many options, in some local codes there are other requirements, etc.

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Still curious how old you are

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)

Quote:

Now, through in 3 layers of ductwork, some FRP duct that requires sprinklers inside of the duct, the typical sprinkler contract where everyone is installed when the sprinkler guy is awarded the contract and you can see where real world experience will come in to play.  I can know exactly where the sprinklers need to be to get proper coverage, but how do I get water from the underground supply to each of those sprinklers?  There is not a text in the world, that I am aware of, that will tell you HOW to do that.

Isn't this a trial and error process, regardless of experience?

Quote:

On a NFPA 13 sprinkler connections to water supplies. What valve arrangement to use or what accessories shall be included?

It depends a lot on the specific case. The code includes a drawing with examples but not a rule. The manufacturers propose several technologies to suit the code rules, the designers have many options, in some local codes there are other requirements, etc.

Assuming you accounted for the rules and other requirements, how would you know that option A is better than option B,C,D,E,F

There must be some place you go to find out, if not, how would you gain experience since you would never know you made a mistake..

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

You gain experience by talking to the fitters that are putting it in and getting their input.  We are only drawing a line on a paper that is connecting circles.  These guys are actually putting it in.  You may be able to fit a 6" pipe in a certain location, but if they can't hang it due to obstructions above the ceiling, or if they can't get a wrench in to tighten the nuts on the coupling, it really didn't work.

This is a great career, but it is not a cookie-cutter, follow the standard and you are golden.  You often have to get very creative about how to get things arranged in tight spaces.  Experience and getting in there and talking to the guys that wrench this stuff in will be very valuable to helping you get along in your career.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?


Are you Vulcan?   Your logical nature is unrelenting logical.
You would make a great engineer if you can learn soft skills to.

I could write a computer program that could recall a terabyte of data on fire protection but it probably won't do as good of a design as Travis could.   Compare it to cooking.   What you are saying  is if you read all 1,200 pages of Julia Child's book you could be a head chef at a French Resaurant.    (see how I appealed to your logic there?)

 

Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.  

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

We've had discussions about this before but this one has a different twist in that if you understand one or several series of standards, you're ahead of the curve. To a point, I guess that would be true. My only concern is that when the design is being prepared, everyone needs to understand their limitations as designers, reviewers or specifiers.

For example, under the 2010 edition of NFPA 72, the standard now prescribes performance based designs to determine if a space is acoustically distinguishable when an emergency voice/alarm communication system is required. I'm already having people ask me what is the best software for performing acoustical analysis. Rather than purchasing software the logic path should be to understand the science of acoustics and how building geometry and finishes affect signal intelligibility, purchase and read relevant texts, and to talk to more informed folks in the arena of interest.

Another area is hazardous materials. When I talk to designers and enforcers, I continue to be reminded that many people really don't consider all the variables, and this includes engineers who are sealing specifications. I probably get 2-3 telephone calls/week asking me if they missed anything. In 9 out 10 cases they generally get it, but then I throw a variable out that makes them go back and ask more questions. Currently I am dealing with a project where the owner/staff are manipulating an exception in NFPA 30 so they can justify protecting an unlimited area building used for packaging and storing water miscible alcohol/water solutions in plastic bottles with ESFR sprinklers. I am highly skeptical, I haven't seen the supposed fire test data, and so far I am not waffling on allowing any construction permits to be issued.

I appreciate the question and the answers that have been given. My only nugget of wisdom is make sure you really understand the hazard your protecting but as important, how changes to that hazard may negate or completely invalidate a prescriptive design. The owner must be educated that in many cases with high-challenge commodities, the design is dependent on the selected packaging and the chemical formulation of the stored goods. Change one of those variables and you can have problems.
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)

Quote:

You often have to get very creative about how to get things arranged in tight spaces.

So you are saying it's impossible for a rookie to either draw in 3D or note the dimensions of obstructions and make sure there is enough room for fitters to install? It seems like it would be fairly obvious that you would go for the most wide open spaces possible - do the best you can, and if it still looks like there isn't enough space then create space by decreasing pipe size or whatever. If you had memorized the standards and guide books you would know on hand what things you could do to change the variables and create more space. I'm not arguing with you to defend a point but rather to get you to elaborate.


Quote:


I could write a computer program that could recall a terabyte of data on fire protection but it probably won't do as good of a design as Travis could.

If you accounted for all the variables I don't see why it wouldn't do a much better job (especially in terms of speed) than any sprinkler designer. For example, in the video game 'tron', you have a bike that has a tail - like a snake - that slithers around in a square and tries to box another bike-snake in -since crashing into a wall results in death-. There are computer algorithms that people have developed to search for the most wide open spaces, or calculate spaces between walls and plot a path, to survive. In the future most jobs will be automated, even jobs thought to require human creativity. This is because in actuality humans are still limited by their environment just like computers, we simply calculate for many times more variables.

Most of our advantages only come in handy for exceptionally fast continual learning of new variables. Computer programs don't have to adapt so quickly.

For example, to solve the tight spaces problem, you would write some code that calculated minimum distance acceptable from obstructions for it to consider drawing pipe there into your entire pipe calculation subroutine. You could also continually update the prices for various pipe types, their sizes, sprinkler types, their coverage area, etc. If you did it right, it would be able to 'trial and error' calculate various sprinkler systems in a building, then you would program a simulator that would test the effectiveness of the system. Leaving the program running for a while would no doubt arrive at the most optimal system possible for the variables you gave it in a quicker time than a human could, and even if not, it would definitely be for lower cost (just for the cost of the electricity to run the computer).

My point is that if a computer in the future can account for all the variables, there must be somewhere that humans can learn OF all the common variables (except super rare cases), since the primary goal of people publishing books on the subject would be to teach rookies these variables. What else would the writers of such guidebooks be doing? How hard would it be to put in a line of text that says "Find the most wide open space possible for pipe in tight spaces so your fitters don't have trouble."

The example given does seem like it might be left out of textbooks, it doesn't seem like it can't be incorporated into them with ease, it's not an idea that can't be expressed in writing, such as the 'proper feeling of weight to put on the brake of a car to slow it to a stop without causing unnecessary wear on the brake, screeching, or dangerous sliding such as on a slippery surface'. THAT is an example of something you can't teach in a book.

 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)
I'd just like to clarify something since most people hate the idea of being compared to a computer. But if you imagined yourself without any senses - no vision, none whatsoever, no hearing, no smell, no taste, and no touch (no feeling of heat/cold either), even if your body was functioning normally otherwise you would be a vegetable, just like a computer, because you're at the mercy of outside environmental variables (things you see, taste, touch, smell, hear) to give you things to analyze and instructions to do.

So if you had a human in this complete vegetable state, then you sent electricity into the area of his brain that eyeballs normally send electrical signals to in order to compute images, that person would then see colors, shapes, or whatever the electrical pattern was identified to be by his brain. This process now makes him an organic computer completely at the will of his outside human tamperers - just like how a modern computer acts. Give a computer sophisticated sensors and an organic component like we have in order to adapt to its surrounding and it becomes a life-form.

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Quote:

So you are saying it's impossible for a rookie to either draw in 3D or note the dimensions of obstructions and make sure there is enough room for fitters to install? It seems like it would be fairly obvious that you would go for the most wide open spaces possible - do the best you can, and if it still looks like there isn't enough space then create space by decreasing pipe size or whatever.

Please make a note of this thread.  Then, call me or come back here and post your first experience when you are working for a contractor developing plans for an industrial site where fire sprinkler piping is given the lowest priority for coordination.  I think you will see the error of your thinking at that time.  Then, wait until the fitter cusses you up and down for have hit the duct work, even though the HVAC guy did not install it where he said he would.  I imagine it must be fun to be only in the theoretical / academic world of dealing with system layout.

Anyway, I truly wish you the best of luck in your educational and professional career.  There will come a time when you know what you don't know.  It has happened to all of us, and likely happens to us daily.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)

Quote:

  I think you will see the error of your thinking at that time.

What does it matter, according to you even if I accepted that there is no way to prepare myself for this situation, the end result is still the same...

If the HVAC guy installs something where he said he wouldn't, and you hit his stuff, then no matter how experienced you are you hit their stuff, so what is the thinking? I'm not trying to say that you can supernaturally account for future, impossible to dodge scenarios like you just gave me. I'm just saying that you haven't shown me that experienced sprinkler designers can either... No matter what you 'know', how can you know the thoughts in the HVAC guys head? I didn't know telepathy was part of the skills gained from years of sprinkler design..









 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Hal................welcome to the "real world" of design and or specification in fire protection systems.  In the field one encounters many applications or needs to anticipate what the code/standard intends and what is given on or during a final acceptance in the field of fire protection.
 

"Fire suppression is a failure in prevention"

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

ASME, AISC, AWWA, API, NFPA codes are all similar in this.

When I was a rookie, I thought that when I got the copy of the code in my hands, I got the Sword of Grayskull to design, but after some years I found out that a code is just a book of helpful standard rules.

Remember that NFPA is the result of a consensus among all the different interests involved in the committees (fire fighters, AHJs, inspectors, consumers, users, building owners, manufacturers, insurers, contractors, designers, etc.). So many times the code is maybe not thinking of you as a designer, and will not help that much.



    

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Still curious how old you are !!!!!!!!!!


And than you throw in ahj, amendments, owners, corporate policy, consultants

And what do you get


a camel is a horse designed by a committee
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

I think the point, as sprinkler designers, is to design systems in such a way to promote flexibility during installation. i.e. don't cut yourself close to the bone with safety factors like not spacing your sprinkler at maximum and use appropriate strategies to allow the system to be installed a number of ways like keeping all outlets on the same side of a welded line which allows a straight drop down, an armover, or a gooseneck in case the HVAC guy installs his duct in the wrong place and hoses you. This is just one example.

Every shop is different in what materials they order, how they install and a myriad of other factors from management to nuts and bolts. As a designer these need to be taken into consideration. What we do has a direct impact on the bottom line.

I can't write a book on all of this because I'm too busy but I can look at your plans and say maybe we should re-think this area and get a fitter in here for his input.When is it best to use all threaded pipe and when does it really pay off to go with welded lines?  This is what is meant by no replacement for experience.  

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)
@NewtonFP's above post

Thanks that is a really clear description,
I can see what you mean, but why wouldn't experienced sprinkler designers write about this in guidebooks, not the standards or codes, but 'how to design sprinkler systems' type books?

it seems like it would be a no brainer to include the type of information you just referenced

if you can look at some plans and be able to spot problem areas, this must be based on logic that was learned from previous jobs, such as "this type of room needs to be left very flexible especially in regard to sprinkler placement" or whatever. I don't see why that also couldn't be written in a guidebook..

not saying someone writes books this way, just saying that they should, isn't the goal to make sprinkler design efficient and inexpensive as possible for the designer, to have better functioning systems and less band aids and corner cutting? it just is beyond me why the retired designers would not pass on their knowledge in book form for the rookies to stop the immense waste of time and effort involved in 'learning it the hard way'.

for example, if everyone had done this since the beginning, we could still be cavemen since no one took the time to teach the cavechildren how to do things more efficiently, and left it up to them to waste their lifetime trial and erroring until the ripe old age of 40 (when they died back then), they finally break through and catch up to their ancestors, only to not pass on their knowledge and die once again.

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Book knowledge is only half of what's required to design sprinkler systems. The other half consists in knowing general construction material, the ability to effectively read plans and understand what it is you're looking at, and the ability to look at the other trades' plans and know what's going to pose an obstruction. I've known people fresh out of 'sprinkler design school' who make the most humiliating blunders because they simply did not have the knowledge of basic construction materials and concepts (such as not knowing what a TJI is and deciding to run a 4" main THROUGH them)

A familiarity with the other trades' plans and terminology also goes a long way. I've had to re-design other designer's work because they had a good working knowledge of the structural components but they lacked the ability to coordinate with the MPE's plans and failed to realize that while there is a 24" concealed space between the bottom of the TJI's and the ceiling there is also a 22" duct going in that space.

I'm sure we can all provide a lot of anecdotes in this regard but the bottom line is NFPA is only half the equation.
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Laminar, i wonder if you are just trolling all of us, or if you cant accept there are some things in life that just can't be learned from a book.  Even when they can, learning from a book is much slower than learning from an expert.    

It is not that retired guys with knowledge refuse to educate idealistic young students.. Really they would love to make some retirement money off their knowledge. But they know it wouldn't be possible to put that kind of knowledge in book form, and the only way to learn is to actually do the work, not read about doing the work.

Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.  

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Even if you could put it in a book, it would be a very arduous task.  I doubt there are more than 50,000 sprinkler designers in the US.  Of that, maybe 10% would buy a book like that.  The time it takes to do something like this would be very excessive.  The return on your investment would be almost nil.  So, in a truly altruistic form, it would be great.  I can't think of anyone willing to undertake such a task.

Most of us do what we can to help teach those within our spheres of influence.  Hopefully, they will pass that information along to the next guy when the time comes.  I have tried to honor my mentors by providing help to designers with less experience.  That way, I can pass on what I have learned to the future of this industry.

Do I wish I could do more? Yes! Is it practical? NO!

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)

Quote:

Laminar, i wonder if you are just trolling all of us, or if you cant accept there are some things in life that just can't be learned from a book.  Even when they can, learning from a book is much slower than learning from an expert.

In one of my earlier posts in this very thread, I said this, "such as the 'proper feeling of weight to put on the brake of a car to slow it to a stop without causing unnecessary wear on the brake, screeching, or dangerous sliding such as on a slippery surface'. THAT is an example of something you can't teach in a book. "

That shows that I accept some things in life just can't be learned from a book. I even classed an entire group of things into a skill called motor skills. My goal here is to gather information and try and prepare myself in sprinkler design field by gathering as much awareness as possible. Already experienced people here have told me it's not practical or impossible to teach their learned knowledge, yet there have been example of people making me aware of some of this unknown knowledge and it only took a single line of text. Doubting my character and questioning my intentions is fine, now I've told you I'm not trolling, there is nothing more I can do to convince you, so make up your mind for yourself and try to remain respectful, as accusing people of trolling is just starting fires.

Of course, I still find it hard to believe that such things could be taught by experts individually to trainees, yet it's not worth it to make a collective repository (in the form of book or training video) to save the time of having to do these spoken demonstrations to trainees all across the map. If experts can teach trainees these things in person, then what are they using besides words (which can be written on paper) and visual concepts (which can be put into pictures in books).

An ardous task, that would only need to be done once and save the time and effort of every expert taking valuable time out of their day to train every trainee from theoretical ground zero.
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Yea there may be a few people that can pick up a book on how to fly a plane, read it, and get the plane off the ground

But more than likely not that many out there


This is like other trades you have to start at the bottom

Would to hear from others, but more than likely 60% of the jobs they do have dome unique problem

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

If you were to memorize all the codes, it would mean that you have too much time on yours hands and you would not be able to do you job.  What do you do when the codes change?  Articulate absolete sections and embarass the company you work for.
As far as I am concerned, specialize in few of the codes and be familiar with related codes.

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Quote:

specialize in few of the codes and be familiar with related codes

This is probably the most correct statement on here so far.  NFPA 13, 13R, 14 and 20 are the most commonly used standards in my work.  I probably have 80% of 13 and 13R memorized, about 50% of 14 and about 35% of 20 memorized just from using them so much.  For the parts I don't have memorized, I know where to look to get the answers.  My work is associated with the IBC and IFC.  I familiarize myself with the sections of those codes that pertain to my work.  For areas outside of that, I defer to the experts in those areas.

 

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

I think Laminar has a point in that here is a lack of good books in this area. There are, but I think that not many as in other fields.

Maybe we don´t have in our lines many good writers, or as some have commented it is not an easy field to write.


;) Seems that most things are not laminar..., but turbulent.

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

@laminarpath

I read your question "Why isn't there a book...", isn't this just one chapter of a larger internet based book based on a need of an individual that will (assuming everyone knows about eng-tips)educate someone with the same question?

Here is a section of code that shows what the forum is trying to explain:

8.6.7 Ceiling Pockets.
8.6.7.1 Sprinklers shall be required in all ceiling pockets.
8.6.7.2 The requirements of 8.6.7.1 shall not apply where all of the following are met:
(1) The total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket does not exceed 1000 ft3.
(2) The depth of the unprotected pocket does not exceed 36 in.
(3) The entire floor under the unprotected ceiling pocket is protected by the sprinklers at the lower ceiling elevation.
(4) Each unprotected ceiling pocket is separated from any adjacent unprotected ceiling pocket by a minimum 10 ft horizontal distance.
(5) The unprotected ceiling pocket is constructed of noncombustible or limited combustible construction.
(6) Skylights not exceeding 32 ft2 shall be permitted to have a plastic cover.
(7) Quick response sprinklers are utilized throughout the compartment.

Straight and to the point...kind of.  Imagine this scenario:  Two adjacent conference rooms share a common wall.  Each of these rooms have a ceiling pocket: 900 ft³, 35" deep, floor protection has been satisfied, pocket location is 4' from that common wall separating the rooms, construction is noncombustible and QR is used.  Does this scenario satisfy the above conditions?

If you say no, then you interpret that the wall does not matter with regard to spacing even though #7 utilizes walls.  (definition of "Compartment. A space completely enclosed by walls and a ceiling. The compartment enclosure is permitted to have openings to an adjoining space if the openings have a minimum lintel depth of 8 in. (203 mm) from the ceiling.
If you say yes, then you utilize the wall and ignore minimum 10' horizontal spacing requirement.

Either way you are interpreting the intent of this section of code and cannot directly apply this code to a common ceiling feature in today's world even if this section was only added in 2002, and subsequently amended in 2007 & 2010 because of interpretations.

You have just rewritten the "All in one" book 3 times in 8 years to incorporate one addition and two revisions of a single code section.

One book cannot be written to account for every scenario, every condition, even if the combined knowledge can be collected, concentrated, and then released as such without interpretation and kept current.  This sub-field of a very broad and diverse set is constantly moving and evolving.  Uncommon today becomes common tomorrow and a book like you describe could not be productive to those who would undertake that feat to write it, or to the people that would be able to read and apply that much knowledge.  Would you even need a degree with a book like this?  

I don't know of many good Techs/FPE's/BCO/and others, that do not keep a NFPA within arms reach (most are looking now) along with their experiences all bound into some well loved 3 ring binder or folder that, while may be common knowledge now, was a part of a solid design foundation that was passed on to them from a previously drawing board/field groomed elder.  I myself am a student of at least 3 of the respondants above and will continue to learn provided the right questions are asked.

Dan
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)
@Wilder

If something can really be interpreted multiple ways then you would of course do the safest option possible, rather than use the wording to say that you can get away with this or that, as a code is generally laying out minimum standards/rules and not meant to be interpreted to mean that shortcuts are okay.

I don't think a book could be written for every scenario - just the ones that are common field problems, not just theoretical ones. I also don't agree at all that changing a couple of things in standards/codes renders a book tailored to the codes beforehand useless, you just update your knowledge on the new sections or altered/removed sections. I don't see any logic suggesting why this would be difficult.

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Quote:

I don't see any logic suggesting why this would be difficult.

Well, I see what your senior thesis should be.  It seems like this is an easy undertaking for you.  What Dan was saying is that a book like this would likely take a few years to write and go through editing.  By the time it is done and ready for publication, it is likely that the standards will change and you are already out of date.

Some things just take experience and doing it.  Just because you passed the driving exam at age 16, are you automatically a perfect driver, or do you get better by experience?  That is how this job is.  You can get a good understanding of the applicable codes/standards, but you need time in the job to get an understanding of application.  I realize you don't understand this right now, but you will after a few years in the industry.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Newton
I do have Gagnon´s book. I agree, it is excellent. I just think there are not that many. Any more recommendations?  

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Bro

Hands down this is the most irrelevant topic VS the actual purpose of this website. This is a website to learn and share code related issues and debate between the most correct answer against code interpretation. Nobody cares about learning all codes by heart. If you can do that you need to move to another planet.
Scientist says that our brain works at 7% of its capacity. Albert Einstein worked at 14% of its capacity. With that said if you can live your daily life and still memorize all standards then you must be working at around 20% which puts you in a different whole category not recognized nor endorsed by any human kind.
So please stop with the non sense.
Yes it would be nice to learn all fire related codes by heart but at the end you could end up forgetting your social security number which makes an alien.
So what is the use     

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Ok look

At first I made many mistakes in this website by being aggressive, condescending, ignorant, etc., however one thing we would like in here is that when you ask a question you be more precise about such question.
In your case your question seems to be too broad.
For example:
Fire Related Codes?
NFPA aka National Fire Protection Association has more than 2,000 fire related code books and standards
My questions to you is: are you talking about fire sprinkler related codes? Fire stopping and caulking related codes? Fire Pumps related codes? so on, so on, so on.

What are you referring to.

Also you did not specified from what year to what year.
Are you talking current, past, 70's, 80's, etc.
This is important to.

Also do not forget than IBC, IFC, and other refer to fire codes as well.

Next time narrow your question so that we can all help in a constructive way.    

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

(OP)
Your opinion is your right, everyone has one, you have no right to deem something irrelevant or valueless for other people.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=305808&page=1

That thread was started because of this thread, for example.

You're incorrect about the brain % use of common people vs Einstein, first of all the brain % myth is extremely misleading - we use virtually all of our brain, just not all at the same time - some people have more developed brains in certain areas, like musicians, and is not isolated down to geniuses like Einstein.

My question was framed as precisely as needed, any more precise and it would have changed the question from what I wanted to know. Basically it was a very specific question - Is there any job out there that would fit the bill of someone who was a jack-of-all trades in knowledge of fire related issues, heavily involving memory (like a master mathematician in the math field, called a polymath), or is there only specialized jobs.

Can't get any more specific than that for this question, your latest posts are just asking to start pointless arguments and are not productive or sensical.  

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

Quote:

If one had the ability to quickly memorize NFPA codes/standards perfectly by heart and completely understand it all also, is there any high paying jobs for such a person that would utilize multiple skills

"high paying" = $60K - $80K


Quote:

or is it best to specialize in one or two areas (such as sprinkler design, fire hazards) even if you had a superhuman memory?

If you have a "superhuman memory" why would you reduce yourself to only one or two areas? "High paying" then becomes 'average paying' which you could expect to be $40K - $50K in this field.

Superhuman memories do more advanced engineering than fire protection.

 

RE: Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart?

@laminarpath I am a little late in the game on this thread, but I would like to recommend a book I read and found very helpful if you are looking for a savant-like memory capacity. It's called "Mind Performance Hacks" by Ron Hale-Evans and many sections are on memory tricks that I have found to be incredibly useful. I have memorized many of my own personal numbers, credit cards, bank accounts, Bible verses, etc just by the application of these memory techniques. I have yet to have the time to sit down and apply these techniques on the NFPA 13 but believe that's the first thing I'm going to do as soon as I have a free day! :)  

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