Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
(OP)
Being new to the BPV industry I have much to learn and I question many things to aid me in that learning. I am wondering if it is a conflict of interest for an AI to perform code calcs on a vessel that he/she will ultimately be inspecting and signing off on as th AI?





RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
Responsibility for design is always on the Certificate / Stamp holder.
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RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
Patricia Lougheed
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RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RN-2.2 Authorized Inspector
Verify that the manufacturing organization has a valid ASME Certificate of Authorization and valid National Board Certificate of Authorization to register with the National Board.
Review design drawings and the traveler or process sheet in order to understand the scope of the intended work.
Review the method and extent of material defect repairs, and when found acceptable, allow initiation of such repairs.
Verify weld joint preparation will allow full penetration when full penetration welds are specified or required.
Verify the stamping, including the National Board stamping, is correct and the nameplate (if used) is properly attached.
Verify the manufacturing organization's Representative has signed the Manufacturer's Data Report and that it is correct before applying the date, his/her signature, National Board Commission number, and endorsement.
The responsibility for the design calculation is the company listed on the ASME Certificate. I would expect the AI would inform his/her supervisor regarding permission to do this activity. The company is taking on significant liability in the event the calculations are incorrect.
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RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
Interpretation Number: I-81-03
Codebook: Section I
Date: 27-JAN-81
Subject: Sections I, IV, and VIII, Duties of Authorized Inspectors
Question (1): As related to Section I, Section IV, and Section VIII - Division 1 of the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, is the Authorized Inspector responsible for the accuracy of the
calculations submitted for the finished Code component or part?
Question (2): What is the extent of the Authorized Inspector responsibility in reviewing design calculations that are made available by the Manufacturer [UG-80(c)(1)(b)] ?
Reply (1): No. It is the duty of the Authorized Inspector to determine to his own satisfaction that the necessary calculations were done in accordance with the Code. The responsibility for accuracy of the calculations lies with the Manufacturer.
Reply (2): The Authorized Inspector must verify that all required design calculations applicable to the construction have been made in accordance with the Code, and that any questions raised by
the Inspector are resolved. The Inspector is not required to check for accuracy of the calculations. The responsibility for accuracy of the calculations lies with the Manufacturer.
The foregoing Interpretation has been further considered, and the following corrected Question (2) sent to the inquirer.
Correction Issued: February 9, 1981
Question (2): What is the extent of Authorized Inspector responsibility in reviewing design
calculations that are made available by the Manufacturer [UG-90(c)(1)(b)]
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
In reference to your "reply (1)" to question 2....and in light of an earlier reply, in your opinion, would it be professionally acceptable for an AI "to determine to his own satisfaction" proper calculations were done when he performed them in the first place in his role as a consultant?
I would add that the code calcs are never reviewed or signed by a P.E. I don't know if that is required.
I don't know if I am treading in a grey area here or if this much to do about nothing.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
In the interests of full disclosure, are you the AI or are you concerned about someone else?
Patricia Lougheed
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RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
I am not the AI nor am I an AI. I am relatively new to the BPV industry. I am trying to understand what standard industry practices really are.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
If the AI had been directly involved with the calculations, the calculations should be reviewed and approved by another party. The AI can still perform a final review, but there should be a 3rd party oversight. Just use common sense!
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
I agree, however that is not what is happening.
The firm hires the AI (who is not a degreed engineer) to do the calcs, the firm designs the vessel (many times before the calcs are done), the firm subcontracts the vessel manufacture to a fabricator that uses the same AI that did the calcs. There is not a review of the calcs by a degreed engineer in the firm and there are no degreed engineers at the fabricator.
Am I placing to much emphasis on an experienced degreed engineer review at some point in the process?
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
Regards,
Mike
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
If there is no 3rd party oversight by an entity or individual with pressure vessel engineering expierence, this is a problem. There is significant risk of liability exposure to the design firm representative that is signing the ASME Form U-1. I would contact the firm employed by the AI and report it.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
But the manufacturer should find someone else to do the calcs.
And for ASME Div. 1 vessels, there is no requirement of the manufacturer to have a degreed engineer to do the calculations, nor is there a requirement for a P.E. to prepare or review the calculations.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
For my money, there isn't enough oversight going on here. Even if the AI playing both sides of the fence is the best designer, with the most and best available formal training, and decades of on the job experience - humans make mistakes. It's the reason most QC manuals call for at least one person (a supervisor employed by the same company performing the calculations) to check the calculations and sign off on the calcuations before they are presented to the AI.
So what's essentially happening is the fabricator is reducing the work performed and checked by a minimum of three people, to a single person. Even if the equipment were Pressure Vessel / Tank / Heat Exchanger 101: something a student could design, I'd be extremely wary of this sort of practice.
-TJ Orlowski
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
After reveiwing an early set of the AI's calcs I understandably had questions. I arranged a meeting with the AI to go over the calcs with the view that he would be able to answer my questions. The meeting was very short as he was unable to answer any questions and stated he rarely if ever looked at the actual calculations, but just made sure the software hadn't flagged anything. It was clear he had limited understanding of the formulas.
Additionally, now that I have a little more experience and have been reviewing this more critically, his code calcs are, of course, only as good as the design data he is given. Of recent concern is that external nozzles loads are never considered due to the fact that he is never given any. A current project potentially has considerable external loads.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
The more information you provide, the deeper the hole. This is a bad situation.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
One the one hand I am glad to hear your assessment in the sense that my concerns seem justified. The mgmt of the firm is well aware of the situation (since they arranged things to be this way long before I started work for them) and are unlikely to listen to my concerns. Any advice on how to handle? Who to contact? I am worried someone is going to eventually get hurt.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
What I would consider is to contact the ASME BOILER & PRESSURE VESSEL ACCREDITATION COMMITTEE via email through ASME.org/Codes and Standards. Your concerns will be taken quite seriously and an audit team will be dispatched to meet with the stamp holder.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
I'd recommend starting with the website for the state/province/ locality where you're located. A lot of those websites have links to let you report a problem. Some will also list phone numbers so you can talk to someone directly.
Patricia Lougheed
******
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RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
And this is an Inspector holding a current commission from the NBBI?! How does he know the program is programmed correctly? Does the program take into consideration the requirements for Impacts, PWHT, or extra LP/RT/MP; as are often required by UCS, UHA, UNF etc, but not necessarily required for section UG mechanical calculations?
I know of several commercially available software packages that are really only to be used for mechanical calculations. When used, the job needs to be thoroughly looked at to make sure nozzles or openings aren't too close together (for Code), PWHT isn't required, Impacts aren't required, RT/UT/MP/LP isn't required, etc.
I've also seen commercial calculation software (more than one, and on more than one occasion) perform the calculations incorrectly (incorrect order of operations, subtract corrosion allowance instead of adding). Every package has a disclaimer that should be taken seriously: that the software cannot (and should not) replace an experienced and properly trained designer.
And it doesn't matter if the software is a "household name." The software is also written by humans, who can make mistakes. With every new release or update, commercial software needs to be re-validated.
These are things that the AI should be making sure the fabricator ISN'T doing, not things he's doing himself.
-TJ Orlowski
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
Excellent comments about a problem that is as widespread as the reliance on engineering software. I was stunned by the AI's comment that " ... he rarely if ever looked at the actual calculations, but just made sure the software hadn't flagged anything." Does he know that such software is just a high-poered calculator, not something that actually DESIGNS the vessel? The appropriate authority needs to come down on him very hard.
The bright young sparks on Wall Street that wrote financial software and then sat back and watched an entire economy implode had the same attitude.
Advice to Evenpar: report this, but CYA (Cover Your Donkey). There is no percentage in whistle-blowing, especially when it embarrasses managers.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
I feel much the same regarding canned software. Guess it was due to how I was trained.
As far as percentages are concerned it's looks like a zero net sum game at this point. I was fired yesterday for "stirring the pot" by the individual who is at the heart of this and many other unethical and unprofessional issues.
Hope the good guys win every once in a while. Thanks for all your interest and comments.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
I guess you're now free to complain to the National Board and to ASME, which you should do forthwith before someone gets hurt by the incompetence and conflict of interest you've uncovered. At this point, you're no longer at the risk of losing your job...
Best of luck finding more scrupulous employers in future!
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
Those of us who are old school enough were educated at a time when we could see how the sausage was made, so to speak. New grads today start with the finished product and assume it will take care of everything.
'Garbage in, garbage out' is an expression you don't hear much anymore, but it is more true than ever before.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
Been there, done that (the being fired thing). I may be financially poorer, but my outlook has never been better know that I don't have to report every morning to a dysfunctional, corrupt working environment that follows the Enron management model. I am picking off clients one by one as my ex-employer repeatedly messes up while screwing them over ...
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
To be brief, the state requires that to be licensed a company must have a fulltime registered P.E. who is in responsible charge of the engineering activities. While the company does have a P.E. on staff, he is neither full time nor is he in responsible charge. I worked on many projects that he had no involvement with what so ever. The head of the company, who is not an engineer, is in fact in charge of engineering activities and is technically "challenged". I corrected many of his deficient and sometimes unsafe designs. Additonally, there were instances of fraud, plan stamping, and use of pirated design software, all perpetrated by this individual.
I met with a board investigator and discussed the numerous instances of violations of the law and provided evidence to back my claims up. The investigator told me at the time he would look into the situation but cautioned me that these things can take some time. That was 5 months ago. I followed up with the investigator a couple of times and was told that they were waiting on replies from the company.
Yesterday I followed up again and he told me that he had merely asked the company if the PE was in charge, the company replied yes, and that was enough for him. I was flabergasted!! No investigation was ever done.
My faith in our system of checks and balances has been severely rocked. We have in this state a company that, sooner of later, is going to hurt someone due to poor quality engineering, and the people who are employed to help insure things like this don't happen do nothing. It is a sad day for the engineering profession and the many good and ethical engineers who make that community up.
Forgive me if I have strayed from the purpose of this forum. Perhaps I just need to vent to some people of integrity.
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
I think you would have gotten much more satisfaction if you reported this to ASME and the National Board, as suggested in the begining of this thread.
Best Regards
RE: Authorized Inspector Conflict of Interest
If the manufacturer has an "Engineer" as its QCManual calls it, who in time review the calculations submitted by the Engineering firm, everyone is happy, then the ASME and the National Board are happy.
Now if the Manufacture locks of its "Engineer", then it can get nailed. The AI may be in trouble with the National Board only because he knowingly he is playing both sides. not because his or her moonlighting to the Eng Firm.
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