ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
(OP)
This question has come up several times and it is now been proposed on a project I am dealing with. I would have said this isn't going to work initially but I thought for conversation sake, I would look it up. I have searched the NFPA standards and do not see anywhere that it is not allowed. I cant even google the topic and find info. Just curious to know thoughts and see what info you all may have. Maybe someone can direct me...





RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
A Sprinkler system employing automatic sprinklers attached to a piping system containing WATER and connected to a WATER supply so that water discharges immediately from sprinklers opened by heat from a fire.
What specific hazard are you trying to protect?
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
My scenario considers the storage of aerosols in racks and on the floor as well as flammable liquids in the same warehouse in racks and on the floor. Some within our company like to see foam water for the protection of flammable liquids, even considering the limitation is has for 3D fires. ESFR has good options for aerosols in racks and NFPA 30, 2012 has options for ESFR protection for flammable liquids in racks, both the same for floor storage. I am limited to what I can do with the commodity storage so I am now dealing with this as an option. Some have spoken up and said That "can't" be done. Others say it can just hasn't been and it serves a purpose for protection of both commodities. Densities have not been adjusted nor has the design area. So I guess I am looking for a few things. Someone to point out where it says it can't be done, someone who says they have seen it and possibly someone who may be aware of testing indicating good or poor results.
That's said, I am aware of other requirements for aerosols ie segregations by Chaim link, fire walls, etc...I am mostly interested in the ESFR scenario.
I am open to any feedback and even criticism. Just looking for some discussion.
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
The combination would probably be VERY effective in an actual fire incident. I also want to see the initial acceptance test on video (if this system is every designed, approved and installed of course).
My suggestion would be to contact FM Global Research and ask them the direct question. Please post any documantation and/or response from FM Global Research for the blog readers.
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
Details...
Level III aerosols in 16 oz cans, cartoned.
Class IB flammable liquids in 16 oz cans cartoned.
Class II liquids in 16 oz cans
Class IIIB in 1 gal, 5 gal and 55 gal drums.
Floor storage to 12ft.
Rack storage to 16ft
Building to 25ft.
Split is ~60/40 aerosols/flammable liquids.
Floor storage of flammable liquids seeems to be driving the ceiling densities.
I can provide more detail if needed. Again, I am interested in the conversation. I plan to call FM Global Research today.
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
But, I can't imagine the foam costs. Just increasing the design area by 50% (6 hds x 3 lines) at typical ESFR design pressures (k14 @ 50 psi) gets you to almost 1800 gpm of foam water solution. At 3% foam, that would be 810 gallons of foam concentrate for 15 minutes. I can't imagine the costs on that. Then, if the design area is to be increased more, the costs just escalate from there.
Another thing though, is that ESFR is not the panacea for all storage conditions. ESFR is very good for what it is listed for, but I have heard it fails miserably when you take it outside of what it is listed for. Also, ESFR is very sensitive to obstructions to pattern discharge. Also, what impact, if any, will the foam solution have on the water droplet size. I believe part of what makes ESFR so effective is the larger water droplet sizes as well. So, while this sounds like a fun mental exercise, I think you will come back to standard spray heads and foam being the more effective scenario.
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
Foam-water ESFR, not so much as you would imagine.
I am to a point where I believe the only trip up of something like this would be the AHJ not approving it.
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
Travis's words need repeating: ESFR is not the panacea of fire protection. You are dealing with highly challenging commodities and the design of the sprinkler system is influenced by several variables that are normally not considered for other commodities.
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
How about a combination of ESFR and high expansion foam generators? ESFRs provide the quick response and massive amount of water, and the generators provide the blanket of foam to combat the floating combustible liquids.
810 gallons is not much foam. Hangers we have designed have over 100,000 gallons of foam. We burn through thousands of gallons of foam when testing deluge systems. Airplanes are more valuable than most stored products, though. The system I mentioned has a 30" supply.
ESFR's are designed to extinguish the fire, most others are just control mode.
I would also be concerned with the containment requirements of combustible liquids with ESFR heads.
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
Do you have a web site with info on the ESFR for flammable liquid protection details? I see NFPA 30 2012 is not out until October.
Thanks
Tom
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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
RE: ESFR - Anyone ever seen a Foam Water ESFR system?
Thanks I was looking at NFPA 30 not 30B, now I see the 2011 ED.
Does anyone know if in the 2012 ed of 30 if they have added any new warehouse sprinkler protection designs for liquid storage?
Tom
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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!