Fraudulent Mill Certs
Fraudulent Mill Certs
(OP)
We received from a large, reputable distributor, four lengths of Chinese-origin 316/L pipe. All four had the same heat number and other mill markings. Mill cert list compositions in accordance with the spec and also indicate "100% PMI".
On-site PMI testing with an XRF gun (later confirmed by a third party NDE company) show the material to be several percent under in nickel content in three of four lengths tested, with the fourth being well within spec on Ni and other main constituents.
Though we've received material with other product flaws before, this is a first for us. Now that we're asking, we're hearing from others that this kind of thing does occur fairly often and to date we've just been lucky...
How often are you experiencing the receipt of material where either mill certs or mill markings are blatantly fraudulent? We're not talking about something being marginally off-spec here- we're talking several percent in the content of a key alloying ingredient!
Do others here have documented experiences of this sort with Chinese origin material? Which product forms? How about from other countries?
On-site PMI testing with an XRF gun (later confirmed by a third party NDE company) show the material to be several percent under in nickel content in three of four lengths tested, with the fourth being well within spec on Ni and other main constituents.
Though we've received material with other product flaws before, this is a first for us. Now that we're asking, we're hearing from others that this kind of thing does occur fairly often and to date we've just been lucky...
How often are you experiencing the receipt of material where either mill certs or mill markings are blatantly fraudulent? We're not talking about something being marginally off-spec here- we're talking several percent in the content of a key alloying ingredient!
Do others here have documented experiences of this sort with Chinese origin material? Which product forms? How about from other countries?





RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
Dik
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
We by material out of Asia, in every case we only deal with distributors that are the original mills customer of record. If it has been through two distributors we won't touch it.
We have never had issues out of Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. It gets risky beyond that.
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Plymouth Tube
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
Wow, doing PMI on every piece of pipe we receive is going to be a huge PITA. I doubt we can trust the distributors to reliably do it for us, though they'll happily charge us for it. EdStainless's suggestion is a very good one except for delivery in some cases. Banning Chinese origin basically means banning delivery from stock around here, so that's not really an option either.
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
Substandard piping and components from China !!! What a shock !
"...we're talking several percent in the content of a key alloying ingredient!"
Yup....and nickle is the most expensive ingredient.
This, of course, is the nasty end of international trade. Cheating on piping mill certs by China began on the first day of trading. This engineering forum (and others) are filled with anecdotes about defective Chinese materials.
Remember, if defective materials were produced and purchased in the same country, this would be a breach of contract and a court of law would assess and reward damages.
But, because this is international trade, instead you get a shrug and an offer to sell more pipe.... There is no justice. Buyer beware....
The Chinese hide behind a complex and lethargic system that does not punish cheats....
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=247851
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
What I haven't seen much of here or elsewhere is evidence of deliberate fraud. It is physically impossible for three lengths to fail and one length to pass on Ni if indeed they were from the same heat. 100% PMI was obviously a lie too. There is no other conclusion BUT fraud. Admittedly we're not using thousands of lengths of material here so our experience base is small.
Defects undetected are a very different matter- the anecdotes about bad quality materials have been very prevalent and even we've seen some as I noted. However, the defects we've seen prior to this have been indication of bad work practice or quality assurance etc., but not of deliberate fraud.
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
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Plymouth Tube
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
If you compare the certificates provided by the distributor,mill certificates and your findings,the three would be different.
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"It's better to die standing than live your whole life on the knees" by Peter Mayle in his book A Good Year
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
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"It's better to die standing than live your whole life on the knees" by Peter Mayle in his book A Good Year
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
I know there are incentives for cheating. I also know you get the quality you inspect for. Call me a sucker if you will, but I've never seen this sort of thing before. Minor off-spec issues, sure. Issues of sloppy or incompetent work- all the time, from all over the world. But outright fraud like this is new to me.
I guess I've just woken up to a new world full of new headaches and costs I've haven't budgeted for. It's not the first time that's happened, nor will it be the last.
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
Very recently, I reviewed an MTR for A-335 P91 that only showed the chemistry for A-335 P9. Material was purported to be US origin. One problem was that the US manufacturer has never made P91. Pipe was purchased from a US stockist.
In our current age of globalism and economic downturn, Buyer beware!!!
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
Last year a company in Middle East wanted a few castings ASTM A 487 processed for establishing welding procedure .Their approved vendor supplied them and on all 3 occassions the test bar failed. The company was in panic as the vessel was berthed and charges were going up with no solution. I was contacted,we made them,proof machined the parts,radiographed the parts,conducted heat treatment as per their requirements and shipped them in 1 week. They were able to progress. The vendor is a US company,unfortunately he was sourcing the parts from India,which he had not revealed to the end user. Certificates were being manipulated in US as if they originated from US.
Thus no geography is free from such unscruplous elements. It is happening and will continue to happen.
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"It's better to die standing than live your whole life on the knees" by Peter Mayle in his book A Good Year
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
The end user is the one responsible for enforcement of specifications.
In westerns countries we only deal directly with mills or a distributor that we have audited and built a relationship with.
Purchasing does not run our business, QA and engineering do.
Trust but verify is still a good way to do business.
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Plymouth Tube
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
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"It's better to die standing than live your whole life on the knees" by Peter Mayle in his book A Good Year
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
We engineers do our own procurement here too- no bean counter is running the show- but we can't ignore the international supply marketplace either, nor are we interested in buying name proxies for quality such as name recognition etc. Our quantities are too small to buy mill runs direct, most of our distributors are probably not direct importers, and the distributors are in business to make money as best they can in a very competitive marketplace too. We have relationships with our distributors, but we're not in bed with anybody. In this case, the "relationship" will be paying for the full cost of replacing that fraudulent crap with material meeting spec, but that is cold comfort for the scare it put into us here.
One thing's certain: I see ownership of a Niton gun in our immediate future. Until now we've relied on subs for spot PMI, and at present that seems way too risky. Whether we extend that to spot confirmation of mechanical properties or the like, we'll have to take on a project by project basis.
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
So, as a user we police our big ticket material products and for the small items we have several key suppliers that on occasion we police.
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
In addition to all said, so far in this thread, take a look to thread794-188022: origin of material and thread794-195299: Steel Products from China.
El que no puede andar, se sienta.
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
Aaron Tanzer
www.lehightesting.com
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
Ferguson/Pipe Products has such a program, thus we allow them to supply from China, India, Malaysia, etc. The rules for our other suppliers, the rule is "First World only". If an E.U. mill delivers fraudulent material, they CAN be sued. Try that in Asia.
Remember, the Chinese civilization is 3,000 years old. Bribes & payoffs for good material have always been required -- kumshaw. We are not going to change them in our lifetimes.
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
Thermo Scientific Niton XRF Analyzers: www.niton.com
"A culture of innovation and a distinguished history of breakthrough achievements define Thermo Scientific Niton x-ray fluorescence (XRF) analyzers...purpose-built for the rigorous demands of portable, nondestructive elemental analysis in the field."
Because of the sad experiences noted above, this certainly looks like a growth company to me.....
RE: Fraudulent Mill Certs
The lesson learned is to use only 3.2 certification (do not use the Chinese Lloyds!) and your own live-in inspector for critical materials. They can make good things if they have to. This applies also for any suppliers, USA, Europe, everywhere.